[Closed] Windows 10

[quote=molgrips ]That's interesting. I tried W8 on the P when it was a release preview, and it seemed snappy - so perhaps something has changed.

I'm far from an expert, but they way some back end stuff is different suggests there's a far more significant change in the core than would be suggested by the minor version number change. I'm not sure I've ever used 8, but always thought it was fundamentally the same as 7 underneath, whilst 8.1 is definitely different (and 10 appears to be the same as 8.1 underneath from my limited use).

aracer - Member
molgrips » That's interesting. I tried W8 on the P when it was a release preview, and it seemed snappy - so perhaps something has changed.
I'm far from an expert, but they way some back end stuff is different suggests there's a far more significant change in the core than would be suggested by the minor version number change. I'm not sure I've ever used 8, but always thought it was fundamentally the same as 7 underneath, whilst 8.1 is definitely different (and 10 appears to be the same as 8.1 underneath from my limited use).

windows internal version numbers give you a better Idea of what's going on behind the Gui I'd guess. I doubt 10.0 is a different version, just 6.4 would be my guess. Although, I've not used 10, so I don't know who different it is, it may well be a complete re-write.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/windows/desktop/ms724832%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

Windows 10 Insider Preview 10.0*
Windows Server Technical Preview 10.0*
Windows 8.1 6.3*
Windows Server 2012 R2 6.3*
Windows 8 6.2
Windows Server 2012 6.2
Windows 7 6.1
Windows Server 2008 R2 6.1
Windows Server 2008 6.0
Windows Vista 6.0
Windows Server 2003 R2 5.2
Windows Server 2003 5.2
Windows XP 64-Bit Edition 5.2
Windows XP 5.1
Windows 2000 5.0

[quote=dragon ]To be fair there are state schools paying well over the odds for ipads when there are cheaper alternatives.

They're probably paying a lot less than you think - I've not seen the exact quote (maybe I should see if I can sneak a peek), but our school is getting 30 and they're certainly a lot less than any normal person could get even with a bulk buy. I wasn't directly involved in the purchasing decision (or for the previous set of 8 for the teachers), but if I was I'd struggle to advise something different - it's not like they could go for something which was really cheap - and whilst we have an iPad here, I'm about as far from an Apple fanboi as you can get and wouldn't give them my own money.

It's not like we're going totally Apple, still have the Windows system I help admin - no way we could get Apple stuff for anywhere near the cost of that. I don't think Apple are anywhere near close to taking over education in the desktop market - lots of our educational software requires Windows (in some form or other) and doesn't have an OSX version.

They're probably paying a lot less than you think - I've not seen the exact quote (maybe I should see if I can sneak a peek), but our school is getting 30 and they're certainly a lot less than any normal person could get even with a bulk buy.

You should try to get a look at it, since if someone told you they got a great deal they might be skirting the truth a bit.

(Only saying that because I know a company that bought several thousand of the things and scored next to no discount at all. Though things might have changed now we're past peak-iPad.)

[quote=Flaperon ]You should try to get a look at it, since if someone told you they got a great deal they might be skirting the truth a bit.

I was given a rough idea by somebody I trust.

MS are shitting themselves as Apple take over education

We (a big 6th form college) have a mix of Windows PCs, Chromebooks, Macs, iPads and Android tablets. Apple are big with the media/art types, but otherwise we're MS and Google.

Apple have been "taking over in Education" for the past 15 years.

The only reason for doing that is to make themselves look posh.

The IT department are all required to be Apple Distinguished Educators. I'm sure there is some form of snobbery. It now seems the mothers carry around little Mac Airs instead of phones.

However, the simplicity of use of OSX and iOS lends itself well to education. Nursery and Reception children were making iPad videos of themselves going on a bug hunt last week with almost no help from teachers.

If a school isn't teaching people to be comfortable on any OS, I reckon they are falling short on what they should be teaching people about computers.

What do you mean by comfortable? Opening an Office document? Sending a group email? How many Linux distributions do the students need to be able to use?

Talking to the head of IT last week, he doesn't think IT teachers will exist in schools within 10 years. Children know their way around computers and tablets. The new role is one of supporting them in using tech in other areas of the curriculum and that's happening. Seeing year 3 students speeding their way through Google Docs to edit collaborative homework or year 4s using google properly is astounding. That's what's important in modern IT and education. Should they be looking to learn coding etc, then higher education is much more suitable.

Apple have been "taking over in Education" for the past 15 years.

My old uni had a huge Mac suite in the year before i arrived, about 80 high end iMacs. These were mostly replaced in my 1st year with shuttle PCs. A couple years later iMacs were back in and now they've gone back to PCs. This final decision was apparently all based on cost, which iirc was about half of the apple prices. What they gained in savings they (imo) lost in impressiveness to new students. Like it or not, a huge room filled with high end apple computers looks more impressive than if it's filled with PCs.

8.1 (with classic shell) is the best OS I have ever used. Although I did come straight from XP so have never used 7. My kids both have 7 but they seem to sort their own issues out nowadays (if indeed they have any). I have accepted the 10 offer. I just want to get rid of the notification icon from the sys tray now... Anyone?

Click the up arrow to show all notifications then Customise and you can set the Win one not to show, just remember to go back on the 29th July to see if it's downloaded

I'll try that. Thanks.

However, the simplicity of use of OSX and iOS lends itself well to education. Nursery and Reception children were making iPad videos of themselves going on a bug hunt last week with almost no help from teachers.

Not that impressive.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/01/kids_learn_hacking_android/

FWIW my 2 year old can work an iPad and picked it up a lot quicker than we did. I think it's more to do with the nature of the OS than the OS itself (if you get what I mean - like comparing OSX to iOS).

Not sure about no IT teachers, there will still be plenty of scope for teaching computer science, it just might be a bit more advanced than it is now.

Hang on.. Are we supposed to get email or something about this upgrade?

FWIW my 2 year old can work an iPad and picked it up a lot quicker than we did.

Isn't that quite sad? How are his tree climbing skills?

Those Ethiopian children really are impressive!

Not sure about no IT teachers, there will still be plenty of scope for teaching computer science, it just might be a bit more advanced than it is now.

I don't know about more advanced. I'm not sure what my opinion is but the man I was chatting to certainly believed that IT would become a support subject as opposed to a discrete one. That's how it's become in our primary school with class teachers leading children through basic IT.

In higher education, there seems to be a maths pre-req but not an IT, computer science or similar.

For my current course (BSc with Goldsmiths) I needed to have had a B in A Level maths but nothing directly computer related. The first year has a crash course in Java, Networking, Physical Computing (how CPU, RAM, HDD actually work). No previous knowledge assumed.

My old uni had a huge Mac suite in the year before i arrived, about 80 high end iMacs. These were mostly replaced in my 1st year with shuttle PCs.

When I went to Southampton in 2002, the main library had a suite of computers and about 5 lonely looking Macs sitting unloved whilst people queued to use the PCs. I'm sure that looks very different now.

In my view 'they' (not sure who they are) got school IT wrong years ago. It shouldn't have been about using Word or Excel, but about learning how to program. That's why the Raspberry Pi was developed, to fill the gap.

A room full of Mac's may look impressive, not so when you try and run any main stream CAD software.

We run W7 and 8.1 across all work desktops and laptops. Both seem rock steady, and this week has seen our first ever IT issue in a couple of years related to software - printing from our virtual desktop, still on XP, has started to fall off a cliff of bugs 🙁

I agree that teaching of technology is rapidly changing. There will be IT teachers in schools in 10 years, but they will be doing higher lessons and training all other staff to keep up with the pupils. The current and ongoing issue in schools is the hardware and infrastructure is not keeping up. Our kids go to one of the best school I know - with 80 ancient machines between 800 pupils and 50 odd staff, iffy broadband and no wifi....

My friends who teach in infant schools say that they're now getting kids in who can't use a mouse, so there may be some need for IT teaching in schools in the future.

The number of 16-year-olds I teach who have hopeless IT skills would say there's still some way to go.

The fact that kids are coming in to schools without experience of using a mouse isn't demonstrating a need to increase IT teaching in schools; it's a demonstration of the need to *change* the IT taught in schools.

By the time these kids reach the job market, do you really think people will be using mice as an input device still? The fact that you have to be "trained" to use one, tells us they are rubbish.

Rachel

By the time these kids reach the job market, do you really think people will be using mice as an input device still? The fact that you have to be "trained" to use one, tells us they are rubbish.

Rachel

Whattttt? Have you seen an episode of CSI?

Miketually - I guess the current crop of 16 year olds are coming from a kind of no man's land of IT. If you think of the changes in tech since they began their education, it's no wonder they're behind. Teachers too, as they came up through primary, wouldn't have had the training or expertise to help much either.

Mikew & Rachel;

Obviously speculation but, I think the mouse and keyboard will be here for a good while yet. There's a reason that whilst general tech has changed almost unrecognisably in the last 20 years, mice and keyboards are pretty much the same!

My 5 year old was praised for her "IT skills" at her last parent's evening.

"Ah", I thought proudly, "That'll be a result of me getting that Raspberry Pi, taking her to Maker Faire, and teaching her some basic programming and simple circuits."

Nope.

It was because she was one of the only kids that could work a mouse. 🙄

Take that Asia!

Isn't that quite sad? How are his tree climbing skills?

NO!

Kids absorb skills like a sponge. The fact that they are exposed to a huge variety of different skills now (including riding bikes, football, tree climbing alongside iPads and dronecopter flying and whatnot) is a massive benefit to our society.

Don't look down on computery things with those rose tinted glasses. Computers are bloody brilliant. As are trees, toys, and bikes.

In my view 'they' (not sure who they are) got school IT wrong years ago. It shouldn't have been about using Word or Excel, but about learning how to program.

Disagree. The vast majority of people don't need to know how to program. It'd be like teaching everyone in school how to change a clutch or lay bricks.

Don't worry though. The plummy posh kids still have it covered:

PS Graham, what are you using to teach programming to a 5 year old?

Disagree. The vast majority of people don't need to know how to program. It'd be like teaching everyone in school how to change a clutch or lay bricks.

Very true.

Don't look down on computery things with those rose tinted glasses. Computers are bloody brilliant. As are trees, toys, and bikes.

I don't (and am doing a computer BSc). Using an iPad by age 2 seems a stretch imo. My 3 year old doesn't / can't.

PS Graham, what are you using to teach programming to a 5 year old?

https://scratch.mit.edu/

^^no idea if that's what Graham uses, but that's a great one.

Graham, what are you using to teach programming to a 5 year old?

I've used some of the Year Of Code stuff. She completed the LightBot Jr game.

It's all very graphical, but gets them thinking about planning steps and visualising what is going to happen.

My plan is to move onto Scratch on the Raspberry Pi as the next step, maybe during the school holidays.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/learning/getting-started-with-scratch/

We also did a couple of simple circuits on a breadboard before Maker Faire, just to get her switched on to electronics a little bit.

Just dead simple battery + button + LED stuff. She liked this one:

[img] [/img]

Then at Maker Faire she ended up doing a little bit of soldering so we bought a couple of simple SparkFun kits that we can put together at home.

Again just basic stuff like the Weevil:

[img] [/img]
http://shop.pimoroni.com/products/sparkfun-weevileye-beginner-soldering-kit

We also picked up a Circuit Stickers book, where they make circuits by sticking down conductive tape and components:

[img] ?v=1406640970[/img]
http://shop.pimoroni.com/products/circuit-stickers-starter-kit

Using an iPad by age 2 seems a stretch imo. My 3 year old doesn't / can't.

I vividly remember her when she was one, trying to do the pinch/pull gesture to zoom in on photo in a paper magazine. She just expected photos to work like that.

It was about then I fully realised that the world they will grow up in will be technologically very different to ours! 😀

I guess the current crop of 16 year olds are coming from a kind of no man's land of IT. If you think of the changes in tech since they began their education, it's no wonder they're behind. Teachers too, as they came up through primary, wouldn't have had the training or expertise to help much either.

I qualified as a primary school teacher in 1999 - 5 years before the current crop of 16-year-olds started primary school - and [i]I[/i] used computers when I was in primary school. Primary schools started to get PCs and networked computer suites with web access in '98 or '99 so they'd been in schools for a decade before the current GCSE-takers started junior school.

I qualified as a primary school teacher in 1999 - 5 years before the current crop of 16-year-olds started primary school - and I used computers when I was in primary school.

When I was in my final years at secondary school I used to go along to my old primary school and [i]"help teach the kids about computers"[/i] - which at that time* consisted of taking them two at a time to have a go on [i]the[/i] BBC Micro. 😆

.

* the dark ages

[img] https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xAwe2P0ayTT1l8VTozTXUqOmOdqDke1KrdqsbWdBKMFE=w500-no [/img]

She's nearly 12 now 🙂

[i]*notes Douglas Adams by the bedside*

*nods approvingly*[/i]

(you forgot to hide your filthy OK magazine habit though)

When I was in my final years at secondary school I used to go along to my old primary school and "help teach the kids about computers" - which at that time* consisted of taking them two at a time to have a go on the BBC Micro.

Luxury!

Our high school "computer lab" consisted of half a dozen RM Link 480Z machines...

[img] [/img]

connected to a shared dual (yes, DUAL) 5.25" floppy disk drive.

[img] [/img]

They were horrifically slow if you wanted to do anything involving I/O. In a 40 minute lesson, if we were lucky we could just about get all the machines loaded up with the software we were supposed to be using before the bell went.

and for those a little younger
[img] [/img]
Cleaning out an old office found a copy of Lotus 123 on 5.25" discs

Luxury!

Our high school "computer lab" consisted of half a dozen..

A Lab?!? Luxury!

You missed my emphasis on "[b]the[/b] BBC Micro".
As in one(!), on a trolley, that was wheeled into whatever classroom needed it. 😀

I'd have swapped the Links for a Beeb with a spring in my step and joy in my heart. Didn't get my hands on a BBC in Academia until I hit college.

That said, at college we had a minicomputer - a PR1ME 2655 (IIRC) - and heavily restricted access to JANET which we spent most of our waking lives trying to circumvent. Heady days indeed.

My secondary school had a PC hooked up to the internet, though the web didn't exist, in a business studies room for some reason. As part of one GCSE ICT lesson we carried a floppy disk down two flights of stairs, along a corridor then back up two flights of stairs in order to use Telnet to download a text file to the disk, which we carried back to the ICT classroom. Mine didn't work, so I just copied my friend's.

I failed my ICT GCSE; well, I asked to not be entered as I was on track for a grade G because we didn't get given enough coursework to do to get a higher grade. A year or two later, my teacher was working in the lino department of a local DIY store.

A year or two later, my teacher was working in the lino department of a local DIY store.

I was in the first year to have a "Technological Studies" Higher available.
(In theory a great class: bit of electronics, bit of pneumatics, bit of mechanical engineering, bit of programming)

It was taught by a very confused woodworking teacher. 😆

You missed my emphasis on "the BBC Micro".
As in one(!), on a trolley, that was wheeled into whatever classroom needed it.

We had two BBCs: our school was on a hill, and the computer trolley couldn't navigate the stairs.

The current and ongoing issue in schools is the hardware and infrastructure is not keeping up. Our kids go to one of the best school I know - with 80 ancient machines between 800 pupils and 50 odd staff, iffy broadband and no wifi....

If you weren't so far away I'd ask for a contact to offer our services... You never know what we're doing might get big enough we get up there though - and yes, I'm sitting in a school right now, so know what budgets are like, the whole point of what we're doing is to give good IT on a budget.

FWIW they use http://coding.discoveryeducation.co.uk/ here. Also Scratch I think - at least my oldest found the TV channel for the RPi at home and was busy playing with that on there with no input from me.

My secondary school had 480Zs when I started there, but graduated to a room full of BBCs at some point. Though I think I knew a lot more than the teacher when I did my computing O level in my own time in the lower 6th - at least I was left to get on with it (and didn't hack the school system too much when left alone, never got caught anyway!)

does remind me of high school when the first computer was connected to the internet (no password) and the months allowance was used in a day..... that and networks where you had to keep plugging coax cables and that in and out as it kept going down.

and heavily restricted access to JANET which we spent most of our waking lives trying to circumvent.

the olden days were best.

and could get stuff done just as quickly as the latest "experience" that you get with modern stuff.

Though I think I knew a lot more than the teacher when I did my computing O level in my own time in the lower 6th

I was coding Z80 assembler aged 14-15. (We had an amstrad 464).

We also put in an official complaint that there was a question about spreadsheets on the O-level final exam, and this was not in the syllabus! I expect those are now done in primary school?

I failed my ICT GCSE; well, I asked to not be entered as I was on track for a grade G because we didn't get given enough coursework to do to get a higher grade. A year or two later, my teacher was working in the lino department of a local DIY store.

I didn't actually take IT at school at all.

I was in the first year to sit GCSEs instead of O'levels. The ICT qualification then was "Computing" and it was offered at Options time; in the lower years of High School the only IT lessons had been as part of General Studies, a catch-all that rotated classes between subjects every six weeks. (Did anyone else do this, incidentally? I remember Computing, sex education, cookery, and some sort of bizarre tree-hugging cod psychology thing that had us paying anonymous compliments and falling over and catching each other.)

Anyway. Helpfully, they'd stuck Computing in the same Options group as Electronics, because no-one would want to do both of those subjects would they?

I couldn't decide which to pick, so had a look at the syllabus. Once I'd stopped laughing I realised that a) I could almost certainly get close to 100% on the exam right then at 13 without sitting in the class for the next two years and b) I knew more about the subject than the Computing teacher (I'd wound up teaching him in the "General Studies" sessions). Not to blow my own trumpet, I'd been programming since I was 11 so was probably ahead of the curve but the point is the syllabus was very, very basic. So I concluded "bugger that" and took Electronics instead.

In hindsight I should've said something and asked to sit the exam. Kinda sad that the school didn't suggest it really.

so we swapped from hacking PADs

Don't, you'll make me go all misty-eyed. Netlink, an elegant weapon from a more civilised age. Whereabouts were you?

I expect those are now done in primary school?

Prompted by this thread I've just been checking the [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-curriculum-in-england-computing-programmes-of-study/national-curriculum-in-england-computing-programmes-of-study ]National Curriculum Key Stage goals for Computing[/url]. Quite eye-opening.

Key Stage 1 (i.e. 5 to 7 year olds) includes "understand what algorithms are, how they are implemented as programs on digital devices.
create and debug simple programs"

I was coding Z80 assembler aged 14-15. (We had an amstrad 464).

Given we had a BBC by that age, I must have been younger when I was hand compiling Z80 assembler on a ZX81 8)

I was in the first year to sit GCSEs instead of O'levels

A year or two younger than me then - TBH I'm not totally sure I did O level rather than GCSE, but I think the change was the year after (I definitely did O levels the year before). You'd presumably have had to do a project like I did though rather than just sitting the exam (which was about the only time I actually spent on it, pretty much zero prep for the exam).

Key Stage 1 (i.e. 5 to 7 year olds) includes "understand what algorithms are, how they are implemented as programs on digital devices.
create and debug simple programs"

New in the curriculum this year. Still not quite sure what they're doing in KS1, we've not been asked to add anything to the system.

edit: though thinking about it anything they are doing is presumably simple graphical web based stuff

I was hand compiling Z80 assembler on a ZX81

Pffft.. I was using butterflies by that age

[img] [/img]
https://xkcd.com/378/

Disagree. The vast majority of people don't need to know how to program. It'd be like teaching everyone in school how to change a clutch or lay bricks.

You could say the same about any school subject. Why do physics unless you're going to be a scientist? Why do biology unless you're going to do medicine?
And as for history!

Surely you do them to learn a bit about them, so you can find out what you're good at, and enjoy, so you can take them further.

there are some days I appriciate being an amature on the sidelines of a coding dick measuring session 😉

Anyway one poor friend did end up pushing the power button halfway through installing something from 12 floppy discs (about a 3hr process) and spent the next 90 mins holding the button in while swapping discs.

Agree with richmars ^

I also think that (basic) programming teaches some general skills like logic, problem solving, planning, visualisation and algebra - which are all pretty useful even if you don't go on to become a professional geek.

Whereabouts were you?

I was in the first year to sit GCSEs instead of O'levels

dick measuring session

southampton then, but surrey after

You were at Soton?

Apologies if this means nothing to you but two questions: Were you a spod? And, did you play Mao?

Andy & Cougar want to get a room?

No (but I knew some), and No.

Ah well, just wondered if there was some intersection of circles going on. (Not a euphemism.)

There was a spod that we actually nicknamed "spod".
There was also "stroboscope" (blinked 5x more frequent than normal), but I think he might have been a leccy eng like me rather than a spod.

I used to spod, but my definition is not the same as Cougar's. If you spodded like I spodded, you'd know, cos my name has always been the same.

Yes. More specifically, a [url= http://www.mono.org/ ]Mono[/url] spod.

I don't (and am doing a computer BSc). Using an iPad by age 2 seems a stretch imo. My 3 year old doesn't / can't.

She was never forced, she just picks things up fast, knows how to work an android phone as well ( as far as opening galleries goes anyway). Dont worry she does plenty of active stuff too.

IMO basic IT skills should be done and dusted by primary age as well as basic security (staying safe online). Secondary IT should be getting deeper into how office software works, recovering from mishaps (dead hdd, virus) and the things you can do to ease the process and computer science getting into advanced programming and the infrastructure side of things. Tech, art and such can train pupils in their own respective packages (PS, Autodesk, etc.).

If school wont do it I will, as far as I'm able, already getting to the point that a laptop with child friendly linux is on the horizon.

a laptop with child friendly linux is on the horizon.

That's where Raspberry Pi comes in for me. Nice cheap little Linux system for them to play on with good educational support and the opportunity to hook it up to some electronics etc. Ideal.

(And it even has minecraft)

Im thinking Qimo to start with, the Pi will come out later.

On the subject of RPi, they've just announced Win10 IoT Core for that - just sorting out a Win 10 dual boot to install that, as apparently a VM won't write to the SD card (and MS couldn't possibly make a standard image file which could be written with normal utilities 🙄 ) Hopefully have that going later tonight - very excited about that, as it's one of the few occasions where I'll have the highest spec available hardware!

Were you a spod?

Oh, and has anybody seen a (plausible) date yet for this windows upgrade thingy ?

29th of July.

I still don't know if I have to sign up somewhere.

On the subject of RPi, they've just announced Win10 IoT Core for that

Yep. There isn't much to see mind you - it is literally a black screen and a menu. And wifi doesn't work yet either. But it is a really interesting step by Microsoft and has given me a reason to go to Windows 10 so I can play properly with it.

It turns out on further research it's been out for a month, and they've only just bothered to e-mail people who've registered an interest (unless I'm special). Also it's possible to install using Linux and Python to reformat the image, so I don't need to dual boot. But by the sounds of things I might not bother, and just try some other updated things I've been meaning to look at on the RPi.

WTF is going on in this thread??

Anyway.... Yeah if you're doing any gaming you want Win 10 for DX12. If you have SLI it's likely to be a game changer, as there's going to be the ability for some programs to share/add-up the VRAM, not just to duplicate it as it stands now.

IE 2x 4GB cards will behave like an 8gb one!

WTF is going on in this thread??

A geekfest?

You expected something different in a thread about an operating system release?

Hah, no, but its pretty funny 😉

to be fair, even

Yeah if you're doing any gaming you want Win 10 for DX12. If you have SLI it's likely to be a game changer, as there's going to be the ability for some programs to share/add-up the VRAM, not just to duplicate it as it stands now

@scardypants - do you have two graphics cards in your PC working together [not just two doing different things]?

If not, don't worry about it 🙂

Actually, another advantage is that DirectX 12 will also be much better at using multiple processors, so if you have a low-power CPU and a fast GPU then you'll also see an improvement in modern games as the workload will be shared better on the CPU cores.

not sure I have a graphics card at all 😀

DX12 would be a game changer. Hmm, SLI/Crossfire added to the upgrade list...

The CPU/GPU thing would be helpful on my athsmatic QX6850, never mind any furture upgrades.