MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
A 60W bulb uses 60W all the time it's on. You can leave it on for a year if you like, it's a 60W bulb. Leave it on or one hour it'll use 60Wh.
LOL. The lamp will use 60W per hour. In 2 hours, it'll use 120Wh.
require massive infrastructure installations.
Unlike conventional power stations that need no cables, roads or....erm....I got that wrong didn't I?
Massive compared to what? Massive infrastructure implies a new airport or something else properly big. Not a wind farm.
This is mental.
It IS using 60W [b]at any given instant[/b] because power is an instantaneous value.
It will using 60 JOULES in a second
IF you left it on for an hour it'd use 2.16x10^5 JOULES or 60Wh.
1Wh = 3600J
Honestly mate, this is not some crackpot theory, it's extremely basic Physics.
no backhander - in two hours it will use 120w not 120wh
Good googling.
That threw me for a minute, because your original reply read "CBA" before you went back and pounded out a response. Presumably you realised that you could BA once you'd, ironically, googled what you were talking about. It's a shame, therefore, that you're still talking complete gibberish.
Your example shows that the plant has increased by 10kW per 1 hour = 10kWh.
No. It's increased production by 10KW per 1 hour = 10kW/h. I know it's confusing because they look very similar, don't they.
Grrr
this is a windmill
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This is not
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Its an effin wind turbine!!!!!!
no backhander - in two hours it will use 120w not 120wh
Don't do that, you'll make Molgrips go a funny colour.
no backhander - in two hours it will use 120w not 120wh
Are you trolling?!
...and this is a windpump.
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Binners, we could meet in Rammy, do The Rake first and end the ride at a chippy!
Me and Mr Starship will be in touch with a finely honed plan.
Are you trolling?!
Ever read the instructions on a firework?
Actually, thinking about it he's not trolling, he's fishing.
For example, when a light bulb with a power rating of 100W is turned on for one hour, the energy used is 100 watt hours (W·h
What wiki said:
For example, when a light bulb with a power rating of 100W is turned on for one hour, the energy used is 100 watt hours (W·h)
What you said:
The lamp will use 60W per hour
Different.
Anyway, aren't we missing the point?!? Wind turbines are rubbish because of something some guy said down the pub, and a bunch of dubious cherry-picked reports. Instead we should be using other forms of renewable energy that haven't got past development instead.
One of the turbines on Scout Moor has been on fire recently or so I have been told. Must have a look before they polish it up.
there's no difference
the energy used is 100 watt hours
The lamp will use 60W per hour
****ing hell maybe I'm not great at putting my point into written form, you know what I meant. We're talking about energy which we can use. I could jump all over your posts if I had to and your lack of understanding of ENERGY.
Well done for the tag BTW. very constructive.
I had to and your lack of understanding of ENERGY
This is insane.
I understand it perfectly well. I've got a masters degree in Physics, but I don't need it for this since it's A level stuff.
60W = 60J/s
60W per hour = 60J/s/h which is nonsense in this context.
60Wh = 216,000J
The reason I made my original post is that it was NOT exactly clear what you meant. I thought I understood though so that's what I posted.
12kWh in a day is a looong way from a 12kW supply. By a factor of 24 in fact.
[b]Wh [/b]is entirely different to [b]W/h[/b]
The slash is important!
Molgrips is 100% right on this one. There is no debate, really.
It is absolutely basic SI unit derivation. A Level (maybe even GCSE) Physics stuff.
I've always thought it would be so much easier if the industry used Joules instead of kWh.
I think a lot of this argument is down to the use of English. I think people interpret the statement 'the bulb uses 60W' in different ways. It would be better to say 'the bulb is rated at 60W' or 'the bulb uses energy at a rate of 60W'. Either way the bulb will use 2Wh or 216kJ of energy in one hour.
By the way I totally agree with Kit's comment on this.
W/h - the rate of change of energy consumption? 😯
Ok so my units weren't up to scratch admittedly.
The point still stands that 2 off 30m WTs produce a maximum 12kWh per day or 0.5kW. They have only done this a few days this year and the energy produced is often nothing.
Anyway, aren't we missing the point?!? Wind turbines are rubbish because of something some guy said down the pub, and a bunch of dubious cherry-picked reports. Instead we should be using other forms of renewable energy that haven't got past development instead.
Attitudes like this, who believe whatever the WT manufacturers and govt tells them need to be informed of the real limitations and failures of wind technology which are currently being found out worldwide although not widely reported due to embarrasment.
Harry. We could start on the Rake, do a big loop. (the last descent down to Rammy is great fun) then finish with the delights of this place at the bottom:
http://www.grantarmshotelramsbottom.co.uk/menu.php
where we can sit outside and take in the rather nice view of the turbines we'll have just ridden round. Result!
Fish and Chips and a pint sir? 😀
I've always thought it would be so much easier if the industry used Joules instead of kWh.
100% agree.
I suppose they invented kWh for those who don't know that a 1W = 1J/s
OT I like them and think they are part of the solution. Storage is an issue though - can we use them to pump water up hill then we have it stored for hydro use?
IME - I have lived off mains the net so to speak. Wind is highly unpredictable and when it is really windy you can generate three months worth of power in about 6 hours of strong wind...no method for storing this much though. Other days/ weeks it will do nothing. I realise being built on hills/windy sites stops this but its inability to respond to demand makes it unsuitable as a sole power source. Surely tidal ,as it is always on, is better?
Solar was great for 6 mths o fth year - those sunny ones anyway
[url= http://www.evwind.es/noticias.php?id_not=3838 ]Spain has proven the worth of renewables.[/url]
backhander I think for your own sake you need to sit down, have a cup of tea and read up on the facts and make sure you understand them before you dig a deeper hole, have a look at what you are actually linking to and bear in mind anti-wind sites have some truly hilarious 'facts' about wind turbines. My current favourite I came across the other day is that wind turbines actually work in reverse and are powered from the grid to spin to make the industry look better!
I'm a fan of well placed wind farms, but those with low capacity factors or too close to sensitive receptors aren't a good idea. Offshore wind is fantastic and will be the way of the future - clamouring over onshore sites that have already been turned down is a sign that things will change. Micro renewables are great too - I'd love to have a house powered by things like solar, heated by the ground, a wee wind turbine, a little run of river hydro, would be lovely.
I suppose they invented kWh for those who don't know that a 1W = 1J/s
Yeah or just to keep the numbers smaller 🙂
Surely tidal ,as it is always on
Well it's not really always on is it? It's always going to generate a huge amount in a 6hr period or whatever it is, but it's only for two 6hr periods a day, and those periods don't always line up with demand.
I'm a fan of well placed wind farms
You don't say.
Hang on a minute. Brusquely asserting his opposition to wind farms in a blunt manner? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder......
Backhander. You are Sir Bernard Ingham and I claim my £5 😉
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2004/apr/25/energy.greenpolitics
Spain has proven the worth of renewables.
[url= http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/02/10/holland_energy_switch/ ]Holland Disagree[/url]
the real limitations and failures of wind technology which are currently being found out worldwide although not widely reported due to embarrasment.
Please share your sources.
Wind turbines are a lot like 29ers. They weren't great when they came out, but once people understood them, tweaked their design and worked out where to put them for best effect, they became mainstream and just part of the overall scenery. Some turbines were not well sited. They are getting better at this and they do generate electricity from something that isn't finite, so that = good.
The information is out there.
I don't disagree with the theory, energy with no pollution is good; it's the practice and the fact that they deliver such a miniscule amount of energy, which is criminally (IME) overestimated by manufacturers. I don't disagree with them on looks/location either but I am aware that off shore wind farms are very expensive and difficult to maintain.
they proper shit me up when I was riding through them and they start to turn into the wind
they is massive and its weird noise when you don't know exactly whats making it
Binners et all - I might be interested in you ride, would you let me know if its ok to pop along with you? ta - email in profile
Chips and a pint sir?
Now you're talking. I might swing by, depending when (and if you don't mind).
The information is out there.
Where, Mulder?
One of the things that is often forgot about when discussing renewable energy is that it is usually quoted as offsetting a proportion of the UKs electricity consumption. However this is only a small part of the total energy that we use (~12%). To put that in perspective, the UKs wind turbines are at this moment contributing 0.036% of our total energy consumption!
The problem we have is that we have built a society on high density fuels (petrol, coal, uranium etc.) and we are now trying to replace them with much lower density fuels (hydrogen, wind etc.). That means much more infrastruture and much higher energy costs, something that we are not very good at accepting. Building a few wind turbines in scotland is going to have a tiny effect on our total energy usage, it would be far better to spend that money getting people to reduce their consumption, especially in areas such as transport.
"Minisule amount of energy", come now backhander, 13GW peak for Spain is hardly miniscule. France's latest EPR nuclear reactor is given for 1.6GW in comparison. Even on an averagely windy day Spain's wind turbines are worth several nuclear plants.
I would argue that the easisest way to reduce energy consumption is to cut domestic, industrial, commercial and pulic sector energy use. The average British home is an energy efficiency disaster.
That, in addition to renewables/nuclear.
You know, if they made turbines that ran off hot air, we could solve the country's energy problems by plumbing one into this forum.
(-:
The information is out there.
Where? You claim it is buried so help me find it instead of waving your arm at the internet.
it's the practice and the fact that they deliver such a miniscule amount of energy, which is criminally (IME) overestimated by manufacturers
Miniscule compared to what? They take energy from a free source, so all of it is good on one level. All manufacturers over-egg their product - solar PV is particularly bad for that as well.
If you are so rabidly anti-turbine, what is your alternative?
Where are the exaggeratesd solar PV claims? My panels produced 5% more than on the quote in the first year. The same goes for all the people I know that have installed them.
Where are the exaggeratesd solar PV claims?
On the literature of nearly every solar PV manufacturer we've looked at over the last year or so as validated by our laboratories and technical staff.
The cynic in me would say that it is nice of them to give you a slightly low quote so your first year proves to you that it was worthwhile.
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molgrips - Memberno backhander - in two hours it will use 120w not 120wh
Are you trolling?!
confused after a night shift actually - I know what I tried to say but it ain't what I said
molgrips - Member(discussing tidal)
Well it's not really always on is it? It's always going to generate a huge amount in a 6hr period or whatever it is, but it's only for two 6hr periods a day, and those periods don't always line up with demand.
actually you can generate for much more than half the day - and conveniently tide times vary greatly around our shores - the advantage of being an island.
Well... it looks like a discussion on wind farms has inadvertently started a group ride to go and have a closer look for ourselves. Wonder if we can get a research grant?
Hope you don't mind us all crashing your gig harry? I knew as soon as i mentioned fish and chips and a pint that peoples receptors would be awakened. Nice food in that place too 😀
actually you can generate for much more than half the day - and conveniently tide times vary greatly around our shores
Certainly what this guy believes...
Well they give me a job. 🙂
I'm managing the turbine supply agreements for two wind farms totaling 85.4MW capacity in Sweden. In fact I'm just back from site - cold and snowy.
I took this photo yesterday - made me smile.
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Oh and here's the view from the nacelle of a turbine in Ireland, taken January this year.
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Which lab would that be Too Tall? Because PV panels are some of the most tested things on the planet and German labs that test for the magazines come up with the same figures claimed by reputable manufacturers such as Solar World. In fact you'l usually find it's the other way around, the manufactureres simply publish the results published by the magazines.
TooTall - MemberOn the literature of nearly every solar PV manufacturer we've looked at over the last year or so as validated by our laboratories and technical staff.
The cynic in me would say that it is nice of them to give you a slightly low quote so your first year proves to you that it was worthwhile.
So they're both exagerrated and underexaggerated?
I was going to reply but now I am convinced backhander is just on the troll...surely...
Edukator - are you talking about domestic solar PV alone? I'm looking more at flexible and lightweight panels.
Also, the performance away from the standard 25 deg C is of far more interest ie at higher and lower temperatures and higher and lower incidences of sunlight. Those quoted figures have not always been so useful in 'real world' situations where their performance has been found to be less than useful.
Northwind - over as in manufacturers data, under as in a quote from an installer of a complete system.
The cynic in me would say that it is nice of them to give you a slightly low quote so your first year proves to you that it was worthwhile.
before you said
All manufacturers over-egg their product - solar PV is particularly bad for that as well.
the cynic in me would say your statements are mutually exclusive and you may not be the best source of information on this issue
Go on then TooTall, find an exaggerated figure on the world wide web and link it. So performance tails off as the panels get hot, so what? That's allowed for in predicted performance.
The figures Solar World publish are very useful in the real world. Along with latitude, the orientation of the panels and the sunshine record the figures given allow a remarkably accurate prdiction of the annual production of the panels. Of course I'm talking about the panels used in domestic PV, which are the very same ones used in bigger installations. The bigger installations simply use more panels.
I am not a big fan of photovoltaic - too much embedded energy and too little generation. A small part of the answer but not a large part.
I like the mirror fields that concentrate the energy then use it for more conventional generation
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6616651.stm
Too much embedded energy. How so, TJ? I've already linked stuff to show that the latest panels produce the energy needed to make them in a couple of years in southern europe and can be reasoanbaly expected to be producing for 25 years with over 80% of the initial production at the end of the period. That's in the same ball park as wind turbine carbon pay back periods.
Edukator - its just a viewpoint. They have their place but its not a major component of the solution IMO. Worth persevering with and who knows - perhapos the efficeincy can be increased - after all look at LEDs 🙂
My parents have had photovoltaics installed on their house (In glasgow) It will be interesting to see how well they perform but as it cost £9000 and their electricity bills were only a few hundred a year they will be hard pushed to pay back anything.
Hats off to your parents for investing in the future, TJ. As an old guy on DWTV said, "it's the young people that would like to do it but it's the old people that have the money to do it, I'm investing in my grandchildrens' future".
I agree that the financial return period in Scotland with the rate they'll be paid for production is going to be close to the life of the panels. From an energy point of view though, they should produce enough to justify the manufacture of the panels within about four years. Nice to know they care.
STW wind turbine ride? 🙄
OK...
I've got to sort a few things out with Mr Starship first as this started out as a "fancy a ride but can't be arsed driving too far" sort of deal. If there are many we will need to meet somewhere with sufficient parking (not the little car park in Holcombe as was the original plan) and we may as well aim to finish in the pub or chippy.
I shall post something. HtN started out this way too
"Shall we organise a race?"
"yeah"
5 events, £25,ooo and numerous sleepless nights later...
One problem with them is their impact on migrating birds.
They are very prominent here in the South West of Spain and are in direct line of the European Migration. Because the are on the top of mountain ranges they are having an impact on bird numbers, especially large and sometimes rare Raptors. Unfortunately there is a bit of a cover up going on too, where the authorities will quietly collect the dead birds and dispose of them early in the morning, largely out of sight. These deaths are unreported so the size of the impact cannot be clearly known.
Just to play Devil's Advocate... What effect is the reduction in polution from fossil fuel buring powerstations having on wild bird numbers?
They closed the coal fired station near us 20 odd years ago and a forest has grown on land that was once poisoned.
I love them! but i do work for a company that invests and builds wind turbines.
People need to face facts that we need to do something about where our energy comes from and modern day turbines are efficient and do not meet the stereotypes that plagued the industry years ago
oh and the migrating birds thing tends to only be with badly placed turbines, commonly with farms that were built in the early days. It is much more strict now and RSPB amongst others are always consulted.
ive spent the afternoon on site watching the blades and rotor hub being constructed and hoisted into place. absolutely fascinating to watch and it was massive. 125m to the tip of the blade. which is pretty big for an inland turbine. they can be seen from the m1 just south of leicester.
Harry. Sit back and relax dude. I'll take over organisational duties if you like.
Got to know Rammy pretty well of late. We'll liaise on route choice. Leave the rest to me. Seeing as this seems to be all my fault
Seems I'm riding out round Roddlesworth tomorrow. About these chips and beer?
And on a total thread hijack,
Do you have any routes in a shareable format?
Its a week tomorrow cougar. You don't get out of it that easy 😀
Have you ever ridden up the rake? Its a hell of a start to any ride. If we get up to the tower without anyone having a coronary we'll be doing well
I've just been informed its a 25% incline. Its thoroughly unpleasant anyway
Ooh, Binners, will there be any Hora Hurting™?
I may be tempted to come all the way up, if so...
Harry. Sit back and relax dude. I'll take over organisational duties if you like.
Nowt to it. We just need a meeting point and we're away.
Its a week tomorrow cougar. You don't get out of it that easy
Ah. Ok. That's a whole different kettle of whelks. Cool.
Have you ever ridden up the rake? Its a hell of a start to any ride. If we get up to the tower without anyone having a coronary we'll be doing well
I don't even know what the Rake is. I should also point out that I'm a) a noob, b) a pune and c) deeply out of practice. If you're happy to be gentle or give me a map and meet me at the end, that'll be groovy.
We're sorted then. I'll have a word with the lanlord of Grants this week. See if we can all park up there seeing as we'll be eating and drinking there later. We can be civilised and have frothy coffee's before we set off (and walk!) up the rake
Fred - if you get on the trainline.com now you'll get yourself a cheap ticket up to gods country. You know you want too 🙂
We can hold Hora hostage him and give him the full Guantanamo experience
Cougar. I can assure you most will be walking up it. I bloody will for a start! Masochistic roadies do a race up there every year
Its got a bit of a reputation. I doubt any of us will be posting faster times than these guys:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/348440/wiggins-enters-rake-hill-climb.html
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Of course I'm talking about the panels used in domestic PV
As I said - I am only looking at them in the sidelines - lightweight, robust and flexible are my current interest, which are only just being embedded into buildings (but have other uses). I won't link if you don't mind as we have further trials running over the summer both here and abroad.
Where are the exaggeratesd solar PV claims? My panels produced 5% more than on the quote in the first year. The same goes for all the people I know that have installed them
Ah, but we're in the UK, and companies here like to quote figures for what you get from them if you live where you do, which isn't. You can go on all you like about how well they work for you, but it will still be irrelevant for me, let alone TJ.
As for windmills, no matter how efficient they might be nowadays, you can't get away from the fact that the wind doesn't always blow, and that we have nowhere near (and never will have) the amount of storage capacity to cope with the times when it doesn't if we were relying on wind for even 25% of our electricity needs. Far better than wasting money on them to spend it on research into far more useful things like undersea tidal generation - or save it for rolling such technologies out when they are more mature. With the bonus of not spoiling the environment we're ostensibly trying to save.
i am sorely tempted but the day after I need to do Snowdon or I would be with you
Cougar all STW rides are more competitive for the lantern rouge [ last rider] than for first.
Any chance a relative newby to the area could come gate crash this ride too? I like the idea of being competitive for last rather than first place and you chaps don't seem all bad either!
looks like the more the merrier at the moment fella 😀