[Closed] Will you choose to be vacinated against Swine Flu ?

Naahh. Can't see the point.

I'll wait for the first service pack to come out first 😉

Nope.

Not sure to be honest. I haven't taken up the normal seasonal flu vaccinations in the past and nothing has convinced me swine flu is generally anymore dangerous than 'normal' flu. Don't have any worries over the safety of the vacine though.

Were I offered it, probably, however given that I don't meet the criteria for getting the seasonal jab I doubt that this will even arise for me.

If I was freely offered a jab which significantly reduced the risk of getting the 'flu, yes. Swine flu isn't something which would rather have.

Unless of course someone convinced me before hand, that the swine flu vaccine was part of a evil and cunning plan by lizards in human bodies to create a new world order.

No one is putting that junk into me or my family.

No one is putting that junk into me or my family.

???

Care to expand on why? Do you have rational concerns about its safety?

(Genuinely interested as my wife is very likely to be getting it)

I had flu once not something I'm keen to repeat, took the only 5 days I have ever had off sick in 15 years. Didn't feel up to much for 3 weeks.
Bring on the jab I will be first in the Q!

I use a Mac so I don't get viruses....

Hi Graham,
"Care to expand on why?".

Well I have concerns about the safety and efficacy numerous vaccines. This is not a suitable forum to expand on what (for me) represents many months of reading, looking at facts about disease, and the pros and cons of vaccination. This all began with choices for my child some years ago, and has left me fairly sure about my own opinion.

The whole area is beset with statistical fudgery and entrenched views from both sides. There is a massive multi-billion pound industry on the one side, versus the consumer on the other. I'm not here for a debate, but for an easy to start place for a parent could be [URL] http://www.informedparent.co.uk/ [/URL].

Hmmm.. nothing specifically about this particular vaccine then mountaincarrot, more of a general distrust?

They are offering it to diabetics, pregnant women and frontline health care workers. Being as my missus is currently all three, I rather suspect she'll be getting it unless she has some fairly strong evidence against it.

Yes, i can't wait. I've previously considered myself as having 'robust' health but after colds have descended twice into significant chest infections in the past 2 winters, the advice by the medical folks is that no matter what i think, my asthma is controllable (yay!) but worse than I'd previously have self-rated it (boo!). So I'm firmly in the 'underlying health conditions' category, and the sooner I get the call the better.

Dear sweet mother of god moutaincarrot I know that you don't want to start a debate but that website is full of half truths, lies and frankly dangerous advice.

No jab for me, qualify for the 'normal' flu jab as I have diabetes but have never had that as I know too many people that have had it in the past and then suffer with more colds and flu-like symptoms than they ever had before. Not generally a sufferer of colds and flu so it's not for me.

Not a f*cking chance I'll be taking it.

As my wife, who works in the pharma industry, says, a drug company needs to spend billions testing new drugs over many, many years, yet they're rushing this one out without any of the required level of research and development.

I'll settle for a few days of aches and pains instead.

yet they're rushing this one out without any of the required level of research and development.

It's a flu jab. It's no different to what they do every year with the seasonal one.

Definitely not for me. Do things as evolution intended. "Get virus, die or become immune, naturally" That's my moto for the day.

Well given I have the seasonal one most years and this year then yes I will, I've had flu once before and it's awful. That and I'm not paranoid.

nope
balls to that.

i eat dirt
and cow shit
and sheep shit
and dont wash my hands between servicing my bike and eating
and dont do more than give my mug a cursorey rinse between brews (just seen a woman in a tea room, scrub the life out of a glass, that had water in it, before she went, and put more water in it)

incidently, this is me: [img] [/img]

My mother works in a particularly 'at risk' section within the health service and will not be taking the newly developed vaccination that's only been tied for 3 months (maybe 4 now)
From what she's said very few if any of her colleagues will be taking it. In fact they have been given training on not only how to administer the drug but also how to avoid answering the question "So, have you taken it?"

No thanks, not for me.

Blimey mountaincarrot. Looks like those guys have got you hook, line and sinker for £15 year!

Do things as evolution intended. "Get virus, die or become immune, naturally

LOL ! Good for you gnarlynath ! We need more people like you who are prepared to die rather than accept medical intervention. It's the only way to keep the species strong and healthy.

And I take my hat off to you for never having taken any medicine and letting nature take it's course 8)

Please exclude your children from this honourable commitment though. If you have any.

[i]Please exclude your children from this honourable commitment though. If you have any. [/i]

He'll have loads if he lets nature take it's cause like he claims.

gonefishin, how very wrong you are. The hysteria orchestrated by the govt. and media has caused a fair bit of naivety re this jab.

Barney_McGrew - very interesting.

My girlfriend has attended initial vaccine training run by her NHS trust and all present (clinical staff) were told it would be considered gross misconduct if they refused it. Hmmm!

I very much doubt they can enforce that Cxi.

Sorry mountaincarrot but I don't find that website very credible. They argue that the evil drug companies have a vested financial interest in selling these apparently deadly vaccinations, but they want £1.50 for a PDF about MMR and another £15 a year for a newsletter.

From the FAQ:

Q What are vaccines made of?

Toxic substances, such as formaldehyde, mercury products and aluminium hydroxide...

Q What are the alternatives?

There are homœopathic alternatives... The most obvious alternative is quite simply HEALTH... Diseases do not strike randomly there would have to be underlying factors and weaknesses.

So vaccines are poison and the far safer alternative is [s]witchcraft[/s]homœopathy and "staying healthy".

gonefishin, how very wrong you are. The hysteria orchestrated by the govt. and media has caused a fair bit of naivety re this jab.

Then please enlighten me. Seriously I'm always eager to learn new stuff and I'd be interested in what ways the development/testing of this vaccine differs from the normal development/testing of a seasonal 'flu vaccine.

"but they want £1.50 for a PDF about MMR",

As I said Graham. You need to absorb what you see sense in, and not suck it in hook line and sinker. Personally I have no interest of belief in homeopathy, yet I am still prepared to filter out what good stuff can be found.

Clearly you are not the sort of person who would want to spend £15 a year to amass a mountain of references to research journals and papers, or to read, (perhaps to ignore is that suits you -it often suits me), articles contained therein. Your taxes to NHS already spends, without your say, vastly greater amounts peddling their side of the story. £15 subs for an individual's costs for pulling together a newsletter of alternative viewpoints and research otherwise blacklisted by Big Pharma, I feel is a small price to pay.

Re MMR: If you do want to see the real person responsible for the character assasination of Andrew Wakefield, give yourself 1 hour and watch this:
[URL] http://www.viddler.com/explore/ziggy/videos/1/ [/URL]

[i]Big Pharma[/i]
go to the back of the queue, lose all credibility, do not collect your copy of the Daily Mail.

Drac - I agree. I would expect a an employment lawyer to run rings round them if they tried to make it stick.

if I considered that I was likely to catch it and for it to cause me 5 days off work then I'd have it

mountaincarrot - Member

Clearly you are not the sort of person who would want to spend £15 a year to amass a mountain of references to research journals and papers, or to read, (perhaps to ignore is that suits you -it often suits me), articles contained therein. Your taxes to NHS already spends, without your say, vastly greater amounts peddling their side of the story. £15 subs for an individual's costs for pulling together a newsletter of alternative viewpoints and research otherwise blacklisted by Big Pharma, I feel is a small price to pay.

Or you could just read reviews of the research for free, on an impartial website like the [url= http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004407.html ]Cochrane Collaboration[/url].

No credible evidence of an involvement of MMR with either autism or Crohn's disease was found. No field studies of the vaccine's effectiveness were found but the impact of mass immunisation on the elimination of the diseases has been demonstrated worldwide.

"Big Pharma" Sorry Andy. That was indeed bad and very lazy. Perhaps I should read Daily Mail - then it would all be black and white.

Substitute " Wyeth, Novartis, Baxter Biosciences, Sanofi Pasteur MSD, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, Sanofi Pasteur MSD, Aventis Pasteur MSD", Must be more but I ran out of ideas..

My wife is a doctor, she already has the privilege of paying over £400 a year for BMA membership, so access to research journals and papers isn't an issue.

While I agree that the power of "Big Pharma" is definitely an issue, without them much of this research work would not be getting done at all.

Don't forget that Andrew Wakefield's controversial MMR paper would also have been paid for "without your say" by his NHS Trust and then "blacklisted by Big Pharma" by publishing it in The Lancet. Where it most definitely didn't appear was on a scare-mongering website that plays on parents fears to make money.

My wife and I will be thinking carefully about the benefits and possible risks of the Swine Flu vaccine, but I doubt that website will feature highly in our consideration of the evidence base.

But thank you for your opinion anyway.

gonefishin - Member
Dear sweet mother of god moutaincarrot I know that you don't want to start a debate but that website is full of half truths, lies and frankly dangerous advice.

I think I might know why he does not want to start a debate 😯

because there's no reasoned debate to be had?

Especially with people who think there is evidence/scientific reason behind homeopathy? (please note, i'm referring to that website and not mountaincarrot)

This is really weird, Here's a vaccine that may prevent or help reduce the symptoms of a dose a pretty nasty infection, and folk are really saying "No ta very much..."

Tin foil hats all round

Apparently if you take a 'flu vaccine, you can still get colds, so that proves it doesn't work. 🙄

Tin foil hats all round

Yeah it's not like there has ever been any [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide ]serious consequences to using a safe wonder drug to avoid coughs, colds and sickness[/url].

I can understand concern, especially if people feel the drug hasn't had time to be tested properly. But I won't be looking to Informed Parent for my information.

Tin foil hats all round

I have to admit I was dubious until mountaincarrot quite correctly linked its use to the use of other vaccines, which made it quite clear that if the same arguments apply I should take it given the chance. Thanks for clearing that one up for me, mountaincarrot!

Though of course I'll make sure not to take it if I'm pregnant, just in case 🙄

Small Pox
Diptheria
Measles, Mumps and Rubella
Whooping cough
Polio
Tetanus
Hep A and B
Yellow Fever
Tuberculosis
... all either reduced or their effect on the whole community reduced.

moutaincarrot go to a local grave yard and see the average life expectancy for a child in the mid 18th Century and you will relise why they had to have so many children

Jenner you are a hero for showing vaccination works for smallpox

As for 'Dr' Andrew Wakefield he was paid by the solicitors of the families affect by autism to carry out the reaserch.

Goto: [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_schedule ]
and compare worldwide childhood deaths to UK childhood deaths

... all either reduced or their effect on the whole community reduced.

I suspect mr carrot would/will respond with this graph from informed parent:

[img] [/img]

so I'll save him the bother.

I won't take it unless... I change my mind on the day. I will, however, go for the regular flu jab at Asda - £8 without waiting (or £15 at Tesco last time I checked). Worked for me whenever I had it.

Thank you Graham S for your graph, indeed this shows falling infant mortality due to measles due mainly to increased living standards. What is not mentioned is the infant disabilty caused by measles, this is what the jab is for.
Looking at the WHO statistics we have

[img] [/img]

Ref:www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/diseases/big_measles_global_coverage

At lest my graph is referenced unlike the Informed Parent one

There is a well documented phenomenon in psychology that people with irrational beliefs, when presented with evidence of their irrationality do not choose to change their beliefs, rather they become even more entrenched.

I'm a GP, and I'll be having the vaccination, just like I have the seasonal flu jab every year.

did i just hear someone invoke the name [i]Andrew Wakefield[/i] as being unfairly maligned by big pharma companies

the same Andrew Wakefield who announced to the world and the daily mail that the tripple mmr vaccine was unsafe without declaring his financial involvement in the company that produced the single jabs??

drugs companies may be money grabbing cappitalist scum but what that man did is an insult to the thousands of research scientists and healthcare workers in this country

if mountaincarrot wants to deny his kids potentially lifesaving vaccinations that is sad but its darwinism in effect imho

There is a well documented phenomenon in psychology that people with irrational beliefs, when presented with evidence of their irrationality do not choose to change their beliefs, rather they post the same thing twice 😉

Kramer you edited thats not fair 😥
See never trust a GP
Of course I would have the injection if required.

if mountaincarrot wants to deny his kids potentially lifesaving vaccinations that is sad but its darwinism in effect imho

Sadly his choices affect us all. His children will be protected by the fact that most other children they come into contact with [i]will[/i] have been vaccinated, but if enough people refuse vaccination then we won't maintain effective [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity ]"herd immunity"[/url], the virus will re-surface and even those that have been vaccinated will be at risk.

So his beliefs and decisions put your kids at risk too. Nice huh?

the virus will re-surface and even those that have been vaccinated will be at risk.

Without meaning to be facetious, how are those vaccinated still at risk, and is the level of risk life-threatening?

Personally I'm dubious about the vaccination: I rarely get the annual 'flu (every 2 years on average, and it lasts 3 days) and never had the 'flu jag. I'm concerned about the additional H5N1 element to the existing 'flu vaccine which hasn't been tested over the long term, and is a reaction to a virus which only emerged in 2009.

I'm in good health and not at risk of dying if I do catch it. All the reported deaths 'have had underlying health issues' and many have been old, as far as I believe.

[i]I rarely get the annual 'flu (every 2 years on average, and it lasts 3 days)[/i]

3 days!! That's not flu.

I can't contract Swine Flu, I'm a penguin.

hehe, sorry I meant man-flu 😉

Well, I never have it diagnosed but it's the worst type of illness I get that seems like everyone else's flu, so I guess it must be. I just stay in bed and sweat it out and I'm over it in 3 days.

[i]"Big Pharma" Sorry Andy. That was indeed bad and very lazy. Perhaps I should read Daily Mail - then it would all be black and white.

Substitute " Wyeth, Novartis, Baxter Biosciences, Sanofi Pasteur MSD, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, Sanofi Pasteur MSD, Aventis Pasteur MSD", Must be more but I ran out of ideas.. [/i]

'pharmaceutical companies' would cover this nicely without resorting to Daily Mail catchphrases, and would help people to believe that perhaps you might be talking a little bit of sense. HTH.

I just don't think the risks are worth it.
It seems poorly tested. In America, the vaccine used to get FDA approval [b]isn't[/b] the one that will actually be administered. That seems very odd.
Then there's the other ingredients - Mercury, Aluminium, forms of antifreeze, etc which are hugely toxic.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/10/06/Why-You-Should-NOT-Vaccinate-Your-Children-Against-the-Flu-This-Season.aspx

Someone told me about this guy the other day:
http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/VaccineOffer.htm
Apparently the offer has been there for a several years without anyone taking him up on it yet (the money amount rises slowly).

Anyway - I just don't see that a few days of feeling ill is worth injecting stuff like this.

I've never considered taking the seasonal one, so I don't really see why this is any different.

Without meaning to be facetious, how are those vaccinated still at risk, and is the level of risk life-threatening?

Vaccination of an individual is not 100% effective. You can be vaccinated and still contract the virus you were vaccinated against. And viruses can mutate to the point that vaccines are not effective.

The point of vaccination is to raise "herd immunity" to a level that the virus cannot spread effectively through the population. (i.e. it is a social solution, rather than individual one). If this happens then the virus will die out. This is how smallpox was eradicated.

Unfortunately the herd immunity threshold for measles is around 83-94% (according to the CDC/WHO) so scare stories like MMR and websites like "Informed Parent" seriously jeopardise the population as a whole.

As to risk: well this discussion has strayed into MMR and the general topic of vaccination, where the risks are quite considerable. The risks from swine flu so far seem to be fairly minimal.

I rarely get the annual 'flu (every 2 years on average, and it lasts 3 days) and never had the 'flu jag

That's an annual cold, not flu.

I'm concerned about the additional H5N1 element

All Influenzavirus A is described as a H[i]x[/i]N[i]y[/i]. H5N1 is actually bird flu. [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1N1 ]Swine flu is H1N1, the same as the 1918 Spanish Flu[/url] which is why it raised such concern when it appeared. But the "additional H1N1 element" is not new.

nah, it's all a government plot to take our minds off the mess the country is in............swine flu is just an excuse for having two weeks off work without having to get a doctors certificate......

Then there's the other ingredients - Mercury, Aluminium, forms of antifreeze, etc which are hugely toxic.

Read the back of your next pack of crisps or ready meal and I'm sure someone on here will be able to tell you which ingredients are highly toxic and present in anti-freeze, industrial cleaner etc.

Anyway - I just don't see that a few days of feeling ill is worth injecting stuff like this.

Depends on your risk factors really. As I said, my wife is pregnant and diabetic so the consequences of her catching it are higher. And she is a doctor, so the risk of her being exposed to it is also higher.

The Department of Health estimate that 15% of people catching it will need medical assistance, 2% will be hospitalised and 0.1-0.35% may die (e.g. between one in 1,000 and one in 300 patients).

So potentially more than a "few days of feeling ill", but arguably no more of a risk than normal flu.

That's an annual cold, not flu.

In that case I'm naturally immune to 'flu. No need for me to be vaccinated then.

But the "additional H1N1 element" is not new.

I stand corrected regarding H5N1/H1N1. But I thought the whole debate was that the current vaccination was a new one for swine flu, and many people are worried over the side effects of a new and relatively untested vaccine. Is this not the case?

and many people are worried over the side effects of a new and relatively untested vaccine. Is this not the case?

No it's not the case. The influenza virus is, generally, well understood and this vaccine is no different to normal flu vaccines which change every year and there isn't this sort of panic. The media has a lot to answer for.

Another point on the whole TOXINs thing is that to state that something is toxic is meaningless unless you also quote at what level it is present and how that relates to the safe dose. Many things essectial to life are toxic at high doses.

a new and relatively untested vaccine

Funnily enough, there is a bit more urgency than usual in this case. The 1919 pandemic of H1N1 flu killed tens of millions of people - more than World War 1. The death toll from swine flu in the UK is currently about 80, but you'd be very naive to think that won't increase. Everyone I've spoken to who's had the current version of swine 'flu says it properly knocked them for 6 - the manager of my LBS, who isn't exactly a wheezy tubber, had post-viral complications too.

Currently, the licensing has been postponed so it can be tested in trials involving a further 9,000 people for each vaccine. That's a fair few more people than are involved in most medical trials.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/sep/25/swine-flu-vaccine-uk

In that case I'm naturally immune to 'flu. No need for me to be vaccinated then.

Possibly, though more likely you just haven't caught it yet. [url= http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/flu/Pages/Introduction.aspx?url=Pages/What-is-it.aspx ]The number of people who consult their GP with flu-like symptoms is usually between 50 and 200 for every 100,000 people[/url].

But even if you are immune to normal seasonal flu, H1N1 is a different strain which you won't be immune to.

I thought the whole debate was that the current vaccination was a new one for swine flu

It is new, but it will be largely based on existing well-tested vaccinations for other similar flu strains.

this vaccine is no different to normal flu vaccines

Really?

Someone told me about this guy the other day:
http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/VaccineOffer.htm
Apparently the offer has been there for a several years without anyone taking him up on it yet (the money amount rises slowly).

Scaremongering rubbish like this makes me very annoyed. You might as well offer $1 million for someone to crush up an aspirin and inject it intravenously.

Nevertheless, the fact that he's prepared to offer $200,000 shows that some people have become very rich from fostering distrust of the medical profession. Not bad for something that, unlike "big pharma", never actually cures anyone.

Even water is toxic at high levels.

Interestingly don't think I've ever had flu in my entire 28 years on this rock. I've had a few bouts of 1 or 2 days of fever and shivers but nothing that'd count as flu AFAIK. Maybe I'm impervious!

Arguably, "Big Pharma" relies on public distrust of vaccinations.

After all, there is no long term profit in completely eradicating viruses. You need to keep it ticking over.

Therefore I conclude that mountaincarrot is actually an agent of Big Pharma 😀

there is no long term profit in completely eradicating viruses. You need to keep it ticking over.

Viruses tend to be quite good at that themselves. As Peter Medawar said, they're a piece of bad news wrapped in protein.

Just got a flue jab offer at work.
According to the associated bumf, not only can flu be deadly, but it can also ruin your Christmas plans!

mee too, I don't think I've ever had it but as said above, having been royally ****ed over twice recently by seasonal colds twice recently, I'm keen to not end be the 1 in 300 or 1 in 1000 that might die from it.

AlexSimon -
[i] http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/VaccineOffer.htm [/i]
Did you actually read the conditions attached to the offer?
No-one took him up on it because no reputable professional would give the time to take 2 exams set by the challenger (pass marks 100%, 90%, ,to be marked by the challenger), get certified sane, etc etc etc - It's an impossible task if you look at it closely

Just got a flue jab offer at work...
...it can also ruin your Christmas plans!

Presumably if you vaccinate your flue then Santa can't visit?

Moses - yes that does look strange - the stuff about reading lots of anti-vaccination books and being tested on them.