MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Serious question. Based on cultural closeness and proximity shouldn't Northern Ireland be hived off at the same time as Scotland? And will Shetland be allowed to become independent alla the Faroe Islands? They seem to have a fairly strong claim having a similar back ground to the Faroes? Not that they are worth hanging on to or anything, a couple of windy cold islands with a few sheep.
I'd suggest this is as good a starting point as any for a balanced and insightful overview of the background to the issue you raise 😆
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/salmond-on-newsnight
I could not be bothered to read all that. Somebody give me a summary. First page was Gotya Salmond/usual/petty Paxman.
Logic Fail.
It's their fanatic NEED to be part of something bigger (*) that has caused the problems...
* insert appropriate large neighbour depending on persuasion
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And, no, not meant to trivalise NI issues
Somebody give me a summary.
Nice try - prepare for the arguments to just start again......
Erm...I don't think there's any will for independence in NI...which one would hope would be a prerequisite, if you are actually being serious?
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And will Shetland be allowed to become independent alla the Faroe Islands?
If they want to...
Based on cultural closeness and proximity shouldn't Northern Ireland be hived off at the same time as Scotland?
Pfft, you're not solving the problem that quickly. No-one in NI wants [s]the subsidy pipeline cut off [/s]independence.
given the per capita spend in NI, I'd say yes 🙂
Well, they don't want the Falklands apprarantly so it's unlikely they'll want NI either!
I am not saying that they (NI) want independence its just that the Ulster Scots want to be part of a part of a country they have cultural connections to.
If I lived I Shetland I would be pretty keen on independence. Seems like a no brainer especially if still in the EU. Not much different except being rich beyond their wildest dreams.
This is getting silly
the Ulster Scots want to be part of a part of a country they have cultural connections to
Do they?
Most of the planters came from the Scottish borders. In fact many of them got expelled from the borders for being border reviers and general nuisances.
Good idea. After all, the Northern Irish are known for being fairly easy-going when it comes to questions of which country they are or are not a part of.
I don't think what happened 400 years ago is of interest to the majority.
But what happened 3-400 years ago is important to many in Norn Iron.
Ulster Scots want to be part of a part of a country they have cultural connections to.
Well, given the logic I'm having hammered into me on 'the other' thread, they're not Scottish unless they live there, and those who aren't Scottish who do live there are for the purposes of deciding the country's independence.
[i]But what happened 3-400 years ago is important to many in Norn Iron.[/i]
And not being able to let it lie is the problem.
Zokes - apart from that is not what anyone has said. 🙄
Why would an independent Scotland want to have a part of another country attached to it?
Have you been to Shetland? There's not a lot there. Whilst it may be resource rich, it has very limited hospital facilities, no University, very limited retail facilities... ...it is difficult to imagine it as a truly independent nation within Europe - the population is about 22,000, which is about 20x smaller than any existing EU member state; they would be lucky to qualify for a single seat in the EU parliament; if they are "rich" they will contribute to the EU, whereas I think Shetland currently benefits from EU infrastructure funding; it has no prospect of forming a significant defence force etc. It could become a dependent territory like the CI's, IOM, or Falklands but its not clear that ordinary Shetlanders would benefit - it seems you need to either already be rich (and so avoiding tax) or under threat from a nearby neighbour for that to appeal.GEDA - If I lived I Shetland I would be pretty keen on independence. Seems like a no brainer especially if still in the EU. Not much different except being rich beyond their wildest dreams.
If its people WANT independence in some form or another I have no problem with that - but I've never actually heard any significant local voices seriously proposing that. The interesting question is what happens if Shetlanders or any other defined local area vote NO to independence and the rest of Scotland vote Yes. Could the 'border' be redrawn to exclude that locality?
...if you [s]build it[/s] start the thread, they will come....... 😆
Zokes - apart from that is not what anyone has said
The only people who will be able to vote are those who are registered to vote in scotland i.e. those who live there. They may, or may not be scottish.
Ergo plenty of scottish people don't get a vote, and plenty of people who aren't, but live there (that includes you, TJ), do.
WTF is Norn Iron anyway
Top 10 numpty questions of all time, must be.
Local name for Northern Ireland as far I could tell when I lived there.
Maybe I am thinking that instead of we should be asking the question of what the United Kingdom should look like as well as if Scotland should go it alone, Blue sky thinking and all that. Living in Sweden it is hard to explain how it all works. Is Berwick still at was with Russia, What is the status of the Isle of Man, Guernsey, Alderney, Jersey, British Virgin Islands? And when I finished I could not help come to the conclusion that it is set up to help tax dodgers.
And I believe that is part of the difference between the "Scottish Question" and the "NI one". The vast majority of scots aren't looking back at the past they are trying to understand what the future might hold. The "English politicians" may be underestimating the problem thinking this is some sort of "Braveheart" resentment that drives this - but by and large it is not, it is a genuine belief on the part of some quite capable politicians that Scotland might improve if it got up "aff its erse and stood on its ain twa feet". They might be wrong, but arguing about who can vote, when they can vote etc is missing the whole point of the discussion.But what happened 3-400 years ago is important to many in Norn Iron.And not being able to let it lie is the problem.
Would be interesting to do a survey of each local region asking the question if the Westminster parliament represented their region fairly, equally and in its best interests. I am guessing that most would say no and that it London centric.
I would say the difference is that Scotland has something to hang this on.
but arguing about who can vote, when they can vote etc is missing the whole point of the discussion.
Well, seeing as its going to be a democratic process this voting palaver, I'd have thought sussing out who can vote would have been given slightly more thought than it clearly has been. Other than to get the 16 year old vote, that is.
If its people WANT independence in some form or another I have no problem with that - but I've never actually heard any significant local voices seriously proposing that. The interesting question is what happens if Shetlanders or any other defined local area vote NO to independence and the rest of Scotland vote Yes. Could the 'border' be redrawn to exclude that locality?
Shetlanders don't seem to be concerned about independance, they reckon Holyrood will be as bad as Westminster. Givena choice, they would quit the UK\Scotland and become part of Norway. Maybe because Norway didn't sign over fishing rights as part of some dodgy agriculture deal, or piss it's oil wealth against the wall.
Most of the planters came from the Scottish borders.
Guessing but they probably have died by now.
Maybe Wales should join Scotland?
Givena choice, they would quit the UK\Scotland and become part of Norway
Self-determination, 'n' all....
it has very limited hospital facilities, no University, very limited retail facilities
That's easily sorted
they would be lucky to qualify for a single seat in the EU parliament; if they are "rich" they will contribute to the EU, whereas I think Shetland currently benefits from EU infrastructure funding;
It doesn't really matter if they all become significantly better off.
it has no prospect of forming a significant defence force etc
With so much to offer, they would not be short of "friends"
It could become a dependent territory like the CI's, IOM, or Falklands but its not clear that ordinary Shetlanders would benefit
With some leadership, they'd be right. The ordinary Shetlanders should all benefit or it would not be right.
but I've never actually heard any significant local voices seriously proposing that.
They dont really have a voice though, do they?
The interesting question is what happens if Shetlanders or any other defined local area vote NO to independence and the rest of Scotland vote Yes. Could the 'border' be redrawn to exclude that locality?
That is indeed a fascinating question. I would bet that Mr Salmond would have some kind of flippant reply that basically ignored the hypocrisy of forcing the islanders into union.
Actually I think you will find if you look into it that Salmond backs the rights of the Shetlands to self determination. 🙂
also there is no significant shetlands independence movement
I think groaning about Shetland being forced into a union that it didn't want is something of a diversion, given the origins of the current union. I think it's more likely that the behaviour of the UK government from the '70s onward are more likely to influence what choice someone living in Scotland may take. people get confused and think this is something borne out of xenophobia, but it's really about whether decisions made regarding poverty, education, health have a relevence in Scotland. I like it that the education system is more accessible, I like having freedom of access to all of the outdoors and not just the tracks we are told. I have always been happy to be Scottish and British but I don't understand the acerbic tone toward the European mainland eminating from the current government.
WTF is Norn Iron anyway Top 10 numpty questions of all time, must be.
It's like ingerland but with less ****ers
I think groaning about Shetland being forced into a union
Not groaning, colin. It's completely hypothetical but interesting. What would be the correct course if the shetlanders didn't vote for independence but scotland did? Should the will of the people win out (as is suggested) if so, would scotland be willing to see revenue which they assumed theirs continue going to westminster? Would scotland have a fighting chance without it?
wrecker - in an all Scotland referendum the result carries for all of Scotland.
After all Scotland did not vote for a tory government but got one 🙂
if the shetlanders want a referendum on independence from Scotland they can have one.
Ah; there's the get-out. How predictable.
You mean - there is the logical position.
Waht about Cambelltown / kintyre - if they don't vote for independence but the rest of scotland does? Or how about morningside? Or Mull?
Wrecker - apparantly the All uk general election means a tory government for all of the UK despite it only being a part of the UK that voted tory.
With devolution, it doesn't mean as much to scotland or wales as it did though does it?
And the shetlands didn't vote for the SNP, so why should they have it's policies forced on it?
Scottish independence is about nothing but Nationalism at the end of the day. The North of England did not vote for the Tories but still get a Tory government. As I said it is just that Scots have something to hang their grievances on. Most stuff is decided upon in the EU or boardrooms anyway. Just another gravy train with politicians making themselves fat and making themselves feel more important.
nobody bothered to google the orkney/shetland movement? at the very least? oh well.
there has been discussion around the islands position with regard to the mainland since i was wee. and, most recently, with regard to the ferries - northern islands ferries go to somewhere not voting snp, calmac go to somewhere where they do. could there be a connection? i wonder...
i think it's more likely that the shetlanders would go for a faroes style position in the face of a central belt/nationalist centric government but, i guess, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that orkney might join them, dependent on how iniquitous the mainland government turned out to be.
a scandinavian inclined northern isles? i'd happily ditch this mainland boorach to go home for that
Anyway - back to Northern Ireland.
I'm not close enough to the issues/feeling, but I'm assuming that the historical divide would be that many folk would rather join an independent Eire than an independent Scotland?
Will Scotland get Norn Iron [i]back[/i] if it becomes independant?
FTFY
the Ulster Scots want to be part of a part of a country they have cultural connections to
I want a poodle that shits ice cream. It doesn't mean that I'm going to get it.
compromise. how about a labrador?
that shits poodles?