[Closed] wildcamping not legal.....petition

I'd rather break a stupid law than have 1000's of people take advantage of a sensible one. Busier bits of scotland have issues with litter/trafic/feaces where people treat the roadside like a free camp site.

It should be illegal so the irresponsible ones don't do it.

Set up after dark and be gone by sunrise and leave nothing behind and there is no reason to challenge any rules/laws....

like any other silly "law", just ignore it. If anything just try not to draw attention to it with, you know, petitions and stuff...

[i]q.v.[/i] footpaths/cycling.

I'd rather break a stupid law than have 1000's of people take advantage of a sensible one. Busier bits of scotland have issues with litter/trafic/feaces where people treat the roadside like a free camp site

Confused by the bothy picture.

Some of it is rubbish, but isn't quite a lot of the stuff pictured due to people leaving supplies at the bothy for others to use (e.g. cooking pan, tins of food, dry pasta, rice etc). I thought that was the done thing.

wild camping 'illegal!?!?' where's this 'Freedom' they keep telling us we have and our soldiers are fighting for, bit of a joke really innit, im sorry sir/madam you cant camp there and enjoy the natural beauty of this free country of ours as its Illegal, and now you have to come with me as you are under arrest!
Mental.

Some people think it is but all it really does is attract rats and vermin. Given that almost every walker who turns up at a bothy will have enough food (the words there are preparation and planning), then very few will take food that's been left so the bothy will simply fill with uneaten food if everyone leaves something. The myth of the lost, starving mountaineer turning up at a bothy and gratefully tucking into pasta and smoked sausage is just that - a myth.
[url= https://cairngormwanderer.wordpress.com/2014/08/25/a-disgrace-and-a-challenge-to-youth-groups/ ]Link to story related to picture[/url]
Although I still have happy memories of discovering a lemonade bottle with some vodka and lemonade in it it at Luib-chonnal

Some people think it is but all it really does is attract rats and vermin.

Just read the story. Pretty disgraceful, but I can't help but wonder how much is selfishness and how much is simple ignorance. Ie, did they leave that stuff because they didn't care, or because they genuinely thought it was acceptable?

Ie, would something as simple as a big sign saying "please don't leave any food or rubbish here" make any difference (assuming there isn't one already)? A gang of kids probably didn't think past the cleaners coming round in the morning to sort it out ready for the bin man on Tuesday.

I think our soldiers are fighting for the freedom not to get your head chopped off by fundamentalist religious fanatics, not for middle-class types to pitch a tent somewhere they don't have to pay. But I could be wrong so please do correct me if that isn't the case.

Nigel is that you?

I think our soldiers are fighting for the freedom not to get your head chopped off by fundamentalist religious fanatics, not for middle-class types to pitch a tent somewhere they don't have to pay. But I could be wrong so please do correct me if that isn't the case.

im giving up on this one now.

wild camping isn't illegal on dartmoor.

http://www.dartmoor.co.uk/where-to-stay/dartmoor-camping/wild-camping-on-dartmoor

I like a bit of wild camping but I wouldn't want a bunch of strangers pitching a tent in my back garden either - that's why it's illegal - it's usually someone else's land.

Like a lot of things, wild camping works when commonsense and respect are applied, but these behaviours aren't widely distributed amongst the population at large...

So best to keep it illegal so only a committed few will do it, and keep it to a level where it'll do no harm.

Most behaviours are ok for society at large until the unwashed, mindless masses get involved 😀

Freedom to post what you want on the internet and not to be thrown off a high building for being gay ?

I am not in favour of a law making wild camping legal for the same reasons stated above. Current situation works just fine. Be sensible and respectful and we can continue as we are.

As an aside if wild camping on public land was legal just think of the number of people who'd chose to live that way, free in the knowledge they cannot be moved on ?

Lawmanmx, not sure if your original post was sarcastic but the armed forces are protecting your civil freedom, not the freedom of this land.
There is no such thing unfortunately as all land is owned by somebody so you do not have a 'right' to camp wherever you want.
by making it legal to wild camp we are risking the inundation and erosion of 'wild' places and in time would risk access to land in the long run.

leave nothing but footprints and take nothing but memories

I'll be signing this.

I understand what some of you are saying regarding keeping the great un-hosed out of the countryside but these laws are pointless. We/they will still do it anyway(see drug laws) and all it does is remind us plebs that we are essentially trespassing on the land we're born on.

If you'r concerned about a social issue, get out there and do something about it. Don't just call for more and more laws/rules/regulation until we're all remote-controlled, law-abiding consumers,

I want fewer laws, not more. It leads to a stifling, oppressive and claustrophobic environment.

good old Malcolm 🙂

Jambourgie, there is no law on wild camping. the law is based on trespass on private land.
you can quite freely go up to a landowner and request to stay on their land but you must abide by their decision.

and it has nothing to do with keeping anyone out of the countryside. it is all about being able to enjoy nature responsibly. if the law was changed to say that all landowners must let people wild camp when they want then what's the difference from a vast tract of land on Scotland or your back garden?
and like drugs laws, you can freely partake in whatever substance you like, just do it sensibly and don't rub others noses in it (unless it's coke)

i was going to ask what the specific law is against wild camping, but suspect that 4130s0ul has it

Does parking my caravan on a verge whilst I go about my tarmacing business count as wild camping?

Depends on what you intend on getting into in said caravan. I've had some pretty wild times in them. 😉

Did he know you were using his caravan?

Well he did stir once or twice throughout the night but overall i'd say no. (why have I now got the deliverance theme running through my head?...)

4130s0ul - Member
Jambourgie, there is no law on wild camping. the law is based on trespass on private land.
you can quite freely go up to a landowner and request to stay on their land but you must abide by their decision.

and it has nothing to do with keeping anyone out of the countryside. it is all about being able to enjoy nature responsibly. if the law was changed to say that all landowners must let people wild camp when they want then what's the difference from a vast tract of land on Scotland or your back garden?
and like drugs laws, you can freely partake in whatever substance you like, just do it sensibly and don't rub others noses in it (unless it's coke)

Sure,

A bit of a rant I know. But it essentially [i]is[/i] illegal when the whole country is private property. A bit of common sense should be applied; I think people should be free to move and settle as they wish. I think it's disgusting how gypsies and the homeless are constantly 'moved on'. But I'm obviously not advocating that a tribe of people should be given the right to set up home on your drive 😀

I guess it brings up another debate about how much land people should be allowed to 'own'.

Jambourgie,that would be one hell of a debate. and yes wild camping is illegal in that it is trespass.
there are certain concessions already, the Public right of way act, right to roam in Scotland (potentially Wales too soon)Which is mainly aimed at those with enough land to not notice a few ramblers strolling across their estate or around the edge of farmland.
but they are just that, concessions.

I think part of this problem re the petition is the popular term 'wild camping' whereas it should be called socially acceptable trespass. maybe less people would be inclined to do it if they realised it was not a god given right but is in fact a judgement call which has all the associated consequences.

And I agree re the right to move and settle but unfortunately as a society we long ago gave up nomadism in place of farming and land management and have been living in this mode for a long time.

personally i'm glad the petition won't be complete by this weekend as i'm off out to enjoy a spot of socially acceptable trespass.

personally i'm glad the petition won't be complete by this weekend as i'm off out to enjoy a spot of socially acceptable trespass.

🙂 You're brave. It's bloody freezing out there. I'll be staying in my centrally-heated, stationary home. Though I may go for a wander up on Kinder Scout on Sunday in solidarity.

I don't think the chaos you see in parts of scotland is really alot to do with the land reform act, under the LRA these things are illegal anyhow. I don't really think the LRA has promoted these things either.

More mobility and disposable income has more to do with it.

So don't agree that wild camping should be restricted, I'd agree with enforcing the LRA more strictly, but you'll need to employ for wardens if you want to do that.

I bet you'll find it's the same groups doing it week in week out, so a campaign of pestering and following these groups could be in order.

Nah, best time of year for it. it makes the Whisky taste all the sweeter.
i'm hoping for the rain to hold off and the cold to continue as the last three years we've done the trip in knee deep snow (it's our annual 'lads' Christmas trip)
Kinder Scout sounds like a bloody good alternative though, enjoy.

[quote=jambourgie ]A bit of a rant I know. But it essentially is illegal when the whole country is private property.

Well no. Because "illegal" implies a criminal offence, and unless there is some other bit of legislation apart from the trespass thing (anyone?) then it is purely a civil thing, in the same category as cheeky riding.

[quote=Stoner ]like any other silly "law", just ignore it. If anything just try not to draw attention to it with, you know, petitions and stuff...
q.v. footpaths/cycling.

Which is my instant reaction to it - the trouble is, as explained in the petition, the legal problems result in it being impossible for organised school or youth groups to do, as they're required to stick more strictly to the law than you or I. The same problem exists with river access, where most people now have the attitude that there is a de-facto right, but lack of clarity with the law makes it difficult for groups (in that case I'd argue that it is legal and not trespass, but there is some case law suggesting otherwise). Oh, and of course with racing on bridleways - easy to ignore that, but your insurance will be invalid.

Jambourgie,that would be one hell of a debate. and yes wild camping is illegal in that it is trespass.

Though as you rightly pointed out earlier, no it isn't, a trespass isn't illegal at all.

As with footpaths we have to be very careful on the use of the illegal word, you mean doing something without a legally enforceable right to do so - it's a pedantic but important point as I have had to correct a number of times at LAF, and I think that it's a canard that has pervaded the whole argument, we've been pushed into a psychology of thinking we are doing something 'wrong' when in fact history tell us that it's only through doing exactly what we're doing now that 'rights' have come about in the past for others.

There's a legal maxim “England, it may be said, is not the country where everything is forbidden except what is expressly permitted: it is a country where everything is permitted except what is expressly forbidden” .

Surely a ban on wild camping is not necessary, since littering and damaging property are already illegal?

you can quite freely go up to a landowner and request to stay on their land but you must abide by their decision.

Actually - Criminal Justice Act 199whatever..? Doesn't it make it illegal to camp anywhere other than a designated campsite? Anti traveller legislation?

[quote=molgrips ]Surely a ban on wild camping is not necessary, since littering and damaging property are already illegal?This is exactly the point many of us are making regarding the proposed extension of anti-camping by-laws within the Loch Lomond and The Trossachs NP. The LR(S)A already provides a means of reducing the "wrong" behaviours but isn't being enforced. If more is needed, then introducing a "minimum distance from road" law would solve 99% of the problem.

For those who seem to think legal wild camping would mean waking up to find folk in your garden, the LR(S)A and Scottish Outdoor Access Code already provide legal guidance on what is acceptable and it seems to be working out just fine.

The LR(S)A already provides a means of reducing the "wrong" behaviours but isn't being enforced

This is the problem. A lack of enforcement of existing legislation. If littering/anti-social behaviour laws were enforced, then I'm pretty sure 99% of this problem would vanish. But of course they are not - the police have better things to do. At the moment, clearing up the problem in one area just pushes it to another. Be interesting to see how that wee development on the shores of Loch Lubnaig (a famous white trash camping area) pans out - where has become a hot spot now?

Would a simple solution be banning all camping within 500m of a public road?

So best to keep it illegal so only a committed few will do it, and keep it to a level where it'll do no harm.

This.

it being impossible for organised school or youth groups to do, as they're required to stick more strictly to the law than you or I

Is this recent? When I did Duke of Edinburgh's award (late 1980s), organised through school, we wild camped, in the Lake District. No one seemed to think there was anything "dodgy" about it?

[quote=molgrips ]Actually - Criminal Justice Act 199whatever..? Doesn't it make it illegal to camp anywhere other than a designated campsite? Anti traveller legislation?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/part/V/crossheading/powers-to-remove-unauthorised-campers

It appears you're OK in a tent, but not in a caravan, hence wild camping in the way I think we all understand isn't criminalised by that, it is still simply a civil trespass matter.

[quote=edlong ]Is this recent? When I did Duke of Edinburgh's award (late 1980s), organised through school, we wild camped, in the Lake District. No one seemed to think there was anything "dodgy" about it?

http://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/visiting/wheretostay/wildcamping

Which is pretty much how I understood things - strictly speaking you require permission, but within those criteria it is tolerated. I'd follow similar rules for any other upland area in England and Wales (actually I would and have wild camped anywhere where nobody will know you've been there).

hence wild camping in the way I think we all understand isn't criminalised by that, it is still simply a civil trespass matter.

That means that a farmer would have to sue you himself - yes? Seems unlikely any farmer would go to that trouble 🙂

The use of the word "illegal" to refer only to criminal wrongdoing isn't strictly correct - it can cover both criminal and civil law matters. However, its usage tends to relate to laws with criminal sanctions.

Trespass (other than where specifically criminalised, eg under the Criminal Justice Act) is a civil wrong (known as a "tort"). This means that you can't be arrested or prosecuted in the criminal courts but it does mean that, in the case of trespass over land, the landowner can seek to recover damages for their loss.

This is because English Law based on the principle that all land is owned by someone (strictly, all land belongs to the Crown, and we have rights to occupy (broadly) as freeholders and leaseholders). So if you're on someone else's land without permission, then you're doing them a wrong - trespass. Whether they can recover any damages from you is down to, among other things, whether you've caused them any loss by being on their land, eg having a fire that burns their crops.

So, as it stands, if you're going to wild camp in England and Wales, understand that unless you have the landowner's permission you're committing an illegal/unlawful act. To avoid too much aggro, follow the usual leave no trace principles and the chances of being caught are slim.

There are certain exceptions - usually on an unwritten, tolerated basis - but to change the principle wholesale in England and Wales would be no small matter given the significance of land ownership to some of the core principles of one of the world's oldest legal systems....

in the case of trespass over land, the landowner can seek to recover damages for their loss.

Right so if you really do leave no trace they can't really do anything, can they? If it's up in the mountains or similar?

@molly - Not an expert on these matters, but I suspect not.

That means that a farmer would have to sue you himself - yes? Seems unlikely any farmer would go to that trouble

The counterpoint to that is, many of them own shotguns.

The ins and outs of the law are all very well but do you really want to have an argument with an angry farmer/landowner when you're trying to enjoy a quiet night out? A law allowing responsible wild camping would take away that risk.

Threatening you with a shotgun is already illegal, so I'm not sure how changing the law is likely to prevent that. Meanwhile if you follow usual accepted practice the landowner isn't ever going to find you to have an argument, if they even care.

Is this recent? When I did Duke of Edinburgh's award (late 1980s), organised through school, we wild camped, in the Lake District. No one seemed to think there was anything "dodgy" about it?

When I was doing it (~2000) the campsite was a designated campsite in the Peak District. No shower/toilet block, just a scrap of land that the owner leased to DoE, Scout groups etc for pseudo wild camping. If you didn't know it was a campsite you'd just think it was an overly popular bivi spot.

The ins and outs of the law are all very well but do you really want to have an argument with an angry farmer/landowner when you're trying to enjoy a quiet night out? A law allowing responsible wild camping would take away that risk.

This is a question of governance. In the current model in England and Wales, governing what is/isn't your definition of "a quiet night out" is down tot he person doing it because they know what they're doing carries a penalty of being booted out.

If you change the principle to permit responsible wild camping, you've put the onus on the landowner to prove what you're doing isn't responsible if they object to your being there.

And this is where the "ins and outs of the law" comes in because you're effectively trying to turn a fundamental legal principle developed over the last 1000 years or so on its head in the pursuit of your definition of "a quiet night out".

In effect, what this petition is asking for is not less law, but much more. Now, if you want to limit it to specified wilderness areas where you target the landowners to persuade them this is possible, maybe you have more chance. But England and Wales don't have Scotland's geography (or simplified land ownership - c400 people own half of Scotland!), so what you're asking for is rather more nuanced than self defining "responsible" wild camping and thinking that's sufficient to justify wholesale access to other people's land.

Now, if you want to limit it to specified wilderness areas where you target the landowners to persuade them this is possible, maybe you have more chance.

I think this is the idea. Might as well limit it to Right to Roam land - the work's already been done.