I seem to remember pretty much exactly that on numerous occasions, just need to switch "hotel" for "school that dared to teach something that hardline muslims disagree with". See Batley, Birmingham, London, etc.
I had to refresh my memory on the Batley case. The hardline Muslims - a group calling itself the Muslim Action Forum - were accusing the school of blasphemy. Specifically, a lesson supposed to be about free speech used a depiction of Mohammed wearing a turban (no, me neither) and carrying a bomb. I wonder idly how the other side of that particular coin might look, how our proud white patriots would have reacted if a school was using Terrorist Jesus as a lesson example.
The Guardian concludes "That three years on [reported in 2024], the Batley teacher should still be in hiding is an indictment of our institutions and of their failure to robustly challenge intolerance, whether coming from Muslims or directed towards them. If there is one lesson we should learn from this mess, it is that opposing anti-Muslim bigotry and challenging restrictions on blasphemy necessarily go hand in hand."
The incident lead to the Khan Review - "Threats to Social Cohesion And Democratic Resilience: A New Strategic Approach" - and there's a comprehensive overview here should you want the Cliff Notes rather than reading all 150 pages of the report (I haven't).
Genuine concerns are just that,
That's a non-answer. "Genuine" is objective whereas "concern" is subjective. Would you consider vaccine hesitancy to be a genuine concern?
To paraphrase Dara O'Brian, "the threat of zombies is at an all-time low, but the fear of zombies could be incredibly high."
and this thread is a shining example of why it's impossible to raise them.
Yet here you are, raising them. A dichotomy indeed.
People may not agree with you but that's hardly the same thing now, is it. Keep it honest.
Any suggestion that anybody white is suffering in any way of leads to the kind of response seen on this thread.
What leads to "the kind of response seen on this thread" is making sweeping claims about an entire demographic without a shred of evidence (eg, I had to go hunting for the Batley story based on what you "seem to remember," and London is not exactly the narrowest of search terms so I didn't bother looking any further). What leads to "the kind of response seen on this thread" is people waving Save Our Children" banners because out of the 100,000 per annum asylum seekers we're told are all middle-aged men, one of them turned out to be a sex offender.
Deliberate use of one person's comically of-the-mark understanding of affairs (refugee car free-for-all) to suggest there's no such thing as a genuine concern - seems a bit Motte & Bailey to me.
I don't know what you're implying by "deliberate" here, would you prefer I used examples by accident? I cited Angry Car Woman simply because it's the one I listened to most recently, I can probably dig out the link if you don't believe me. Or I'm sure there's plenty of other people making shit up to be concerned about should you care to look.
If I do respond then it was an extreme example and I'm a fool for taking it seriously.
Well, no. The sensible thing to do would be to take these ephemerally defined "concerns" seriously, look at them objectively and then act appropriately.
many of you are terrified of entertaining the idea that the rising tensions might not be entirely the fault of The White Brit.
Again, this is nonsense for reasons as already explained. Absolutely no-one is saying this, claiming that all immigrants / asylum seekers / brown people / Eastern Europeans / Muslims etc etc are all (to coin a phrase) whiter than white would be an absolutely ludicrous stance to take.
The sad thing is Cougar is you've explained yourself and your issue with the posts in a way that our glorious leaders do not. I wonder if they actually engaged with the points in a similar manner, used evidence and transparency, it could/might take some of the oxygen out of the wider debate.
I'd also like to see politicians correcting journos as well instead of deflecting back to 'when that party was in power' etc.
Definitely isn't helped when politicians simple avoid, obfuscate or downright lie.
This is not the case. When did you last hear of someone being beaten up or worse for the crime of being white?
SWMBO used to work with a guy, white British, who got battered to a bloody mess in Bristol for being the wrong sort of white British, by white British people.
How would you know that as a mixed race person ?
Because my mother as a white women, as imperfect as she was experienced it from within my father's family and wider social circle.
Took me quite a few years to learn what 'gora' meant when they talked about her, the constant snide comments or open hostility about her skin colour, all in my presence.
She suffered horrifically at the hands of her extended family all because she was white, so don't kid yourself it's rare or isn't of the same severity.
I have plenty of other anecdotes, across my time in the Army I've seen racism directed at all manner of people from all manner of people.
Some of the worst has been brown on brown. It's just the grifters that have convinced the world it can only be one way and incomparable in impact and severity. Which is an absolute untruth.
Edit: and don't post this for sympathy or one-upmanship, it's just a sad fact But I'm mostly over it.
Likewise I don't feel the need to create a 'brownperson' sock puppet account or some other bullshit stunt to 'win', I couldn't care less what people on the internet think of me.
I work on the basis that I'm the thickest person in any room (which is usually an actual fact) I walk into and try to consider others POV regardless of if I agree. But there are a couple of things I will not be lectured on and one of them is ****ing racism.
But there are some here who are the most self-righteous, arrogant ideologues I've ever met (and I've met the ****ing Taliban) who deliberately make discourse and discussion difficult and hide their own soft bigotry in ambiguity.
Yet 700,000 managed it legally last year so it can’t be that hard to arrive legally as these people have shown
But the problem is 700,000 is a *lot* of people, and the UK just can't cope
The other problem is that those applying legally almost certainly don't _have_ to come, they have chosen to come. The people we really should be letting in are the ones who absolutely have to flee their homes for whatever reason, but I have no idea how easy it is for a Sudanese or a Somali or an Iraqi to apply for a visa before they set off to, but I'm guessing quite difficult, hence the vast majority of those we should be letting in are 'illegal' , whilst most of those arriving from countries with nothing to fear at home can do so legally. It's mad.
Ukraine is probably the exception, with large numbers of genuine refugees arriving legally.
And yet with 700,000 arrivals the government still goes out of its way to make it difficult for 1,500 ghurkas to come, what's another 1,500 but mostly those guys have definitely earned the right to come!
No one has to come here illegally. Those fearing persecution are of course welcome but none have come directly from the county they were persecuted in. The fact that 700,000 were accepted, quite frankly a mind boggling number, but it shows that once in a safe country then you can apply through the uk embassy.
People would also be more accepting if there was any evidence to show how many people who arrived illegally were refused permission to stay and then how long it took to deport them. If it was shown that process worked in a timely manner it would go along way to help change minds
Those fearing persecution are of course welcome but none have come directly from the county they were persecuted in.
Of course they haven’t since France, the Netherlands, Ireland and our other neighbors are not in the grip of murderous lunatics. For now anyway. So by your logic Turkey, Iran, ****stan etc should take all the refugees and us none. Does that seem reasonable to you?
For now anyway. So by your logic Turkey, Iran, ****stan etc should take all the refugees and us none. Does that seem reasonable to you?
No. But they could apply to enter the uk legally from there. As I have said 700,000 others have managed it. You have also chosen to ignore that many are arriving who are not coming from anywhere close to a war zone. They are lots of safe countries around the world closer than the UK and culturally more similar
But they could apply to enter the uk legally from there.
That would be ideal. How possible is that right now though?
As I have said 700,000 others have managed it.
There’s that number again. What’s it got to do with refugees and/or asylum seekers?
none have come directly from the county they were persecuted in
That’s just a quirk of geography. The UK has had an impact across the globe, but shares a border with very few countries.
That's a non-answer. "Genuine" is objective whereas "concern" is subjective. Would you consider vaccine hesitancy to be a genuine concern?
It's absolutely an answer. You've hinted that you'd you know what both "genuine" and "concern" mean, so I'm puzzled why you need to be spoon-fed the meaning of "genuine concern". I guess vaccine hesitancy may well be a genuine concern to some people. I'd hope anyone responding to that concern would do so by explaining the theory of vaccines, the years of testing that are needed to ensure safety, and the alternative timeline we'd be living on if Edward Jenner hadn't been as curious. Not "you're just an ill-informed conspiracy theorist". Just as when "Ethel from Medway" who can no longer get a GP appointment any sooner than a month away and questions why, because "it wasn't like this 20 years ago" and she can see/read reports of migrants jumping the queue, I'd hope someone explains that chronic underfunding is the overwhelming reason there aren't enough GP appointments, and that it makes sense to see recent migrants ASAP to ensure that nobody is bringing a potentially harmful disease/condition into the country, that is actually in the interest of public health overall for them to be seen sooner rather than later. Not "she's just another wrinkly old racist who refuses to accept change".
Instead you're pretending I think free cars for immigrants is a genuine concern - and I do believe you that a real person called into a real show about it - as if "genuine concerns" is a code for racist rabble rousing. That's what I mean by "deliberate". You choose an unhinged thing that someone has an issue with and use that as an example of a "genuine concern" when it clearly wouldn't be to any sensible person, to make "genuine concerns" sound like something vacuous. And again, this may be a genuine concern to that lady, but is the best way to allay those concerns calling her a racist, or is it explaining that it's with almost 100% certainty that she's got the wrong end of the stick "and here's why"?
Yet here you are, raising them. A dichotomy indeed.
People may not agree with you but that's hardly the same thing now, is it. Keep it honest.
Ok my bad. I should have included "without being dismissed as racist" at the end.
Here's a few examples:
"Most people who are against immigration are not racist."
Got a source for this claim? My personal experience does not bear this out.
Someone said earlier that the less interaction/exposure people have with "foreigners" the more likely they are to be racist - sorry, excuse me, "opposed to immigration." I think that's largely true.
"people’s opinions would change. That’s what I’m saying."
In which direction? You appear to be saying "it's alright for you lot, but you wouldn't like it if you had a darkie next door." That's really not what you mean, is it?
SWMBO used to work with a guy, white British, who got battered to a bloody mess in Bristol for being the wrong sort of white British, by white British people.
It almost happened to me too, the only difference being I'm really good at running away.
Took me quite a few years to learn what 'gora' meant when they talked about her, the constant snide comments or open hostility about her skin colour, all in my presence.
One advantage of living in the area I did and having friends of Pa- Indian Subcontinent descent was that I got taught a handful of words such as that one. Being able to pick out "white bastard" from across the room is a surprisingly useful skill.
Those fearing persecution are of course welcome
Are they?
Are you sure?
but none have come directly from the county they were persecuted in.
That would be quite difficult unless they were all crossing in small TARDISes.
The fact is that most asylum seekers do come directly from their home country, only not to here. The number who make it as far as Britain is a very small percentage.
The fact that 700,000 were accepted,
The fact that you keep trotting out this figure despite being told many times that it is a lie misrepresentation at best suggests to me that "facts" aren't something you should be lecturing others over.
People would also be more accepting if there was any evidence to show how many people who arrived illegally were refused permission to stay and then how long it took to deport them. If it was shown that process worked in a timely manner it would go along way to help change minds
Would they?
Are you sure?
In any case, this data is readily available, should people care to look. But given that every answer I've just provided in this post has already been given at least on this very thread, your own unwillingness to read and review your viewpoint does not give me faith in the "people" to whom you refer.
One advantage of living in the area I did and having friends of Pa- Indian Subcontinent descent was that I got taught a handful of words such as that one. Being able to pick out "white bastard" from across the room is a surprisingly useful skill.
I can imagine, sadly I didn't have much of a relationship with the extended family so didn't get that level of insight.
I learned from a young age to keep myself to myself and ended up spending more time with my mothers side of the family.
They were far from normal and not without their dislike of my father and their own racist tendancies. Usually 'them lot' themed comments, nothing overtly pejorative.
Quite confusing growing up as a lad I can tell you. But they weren't hostile to me so that was a bonus.
The tipping point for all this in the UK was the Leave campaign of 2016. There'd never been a campaign like it in terms of overt racism. Never.
In the states it was Trump v1.0.
No two mainstream political campaigns by large parties or factions had been run remotely like that before.
Legitimising prejudice in such an overt and open way has led us to where we are now. Nothing will ever convince me otherwise nor will it convince reasonable people otherwise. The adjective 'Brexity' will continue to mean exactly what it means now, for another ten years or so.
100%, but,
i don't think the referendum / brexit was the cause (I know that's not what you're suggesting) but rather a catalyst. We'd spent years becoming more progressive as a country, people learning that it's not generally acceptable to display prejudice. However, what we naively thought had gone away or was at least in sharp decline hadn't at all, it was merely dormant.
Brexit legitimised the vocalising of an "us vs them" narrative, it returned a safety in numbers back to those with 1970s attitudes. The far Right extending out anti-Europe sentiment to encompass all foreigners isn't so much a giant leap as a small step which we all should have seen coming.
However, what we naively thought had gone away or was at least in sharp decline hadn't at all, it was merely dormant.
More or less my take. Except rather than dormant, it was out of sight to some. The progression of UK society being to some degree illusory, with those who felt required to shut up being left ever further adrift.
That's still happening, and looks all set to continue for a good while yet.
The tipping point for all this in the UK was the Leave campaign of 2016. There'd never been a campaign like it in terms of overt racism.
It really wasn't, believing it was is in itself falling into the trap of British exceptionalism and ignoring the reality that the same changes have been happening across Europe. It is a result of growing financial inequality and the easy dead cat of racism especially focussing on Islamophobia tied to the wealthy being in control of politics and new and old media.
There are many factors but IMO the aims of the oligarchy, Russia and Israel have largely aligned (while each have their own personal reasons) have created a massive propaganda onslaught, Brexit is just a noticeable victory in a much larger campaign of misinformation and lies. Unfortunately Islamic terrorism has been an absolute gift for these factions who have used and abused it too make all our lives far worse under the guise of protecting freedom.
It is all right, Farage is going to do mass deportation so all solved. He is so going to win the next election.
Starmer can hardly say the same as he would have to actually do it and tories had 14 years of trying to do stuff.
Don't worry about the technicalities of actually doing it or how possible it is, just saying it is enough for my vote.
It really wasn't, believing it was is in itself falling into the trap of British exceptionalism
You wouldn't describe this as overtly racist?
I would and I never said it wasn't, that kind of campaigning has been going on across Europe it is far from being unique to the UK.
Yup, all over the world extremists are using immigration to widen their support. Doesn’t change the fact we in the UK had Brexit used as a tool to further mainstream and legitimise anti-immigrant feelings here. More people are now more likely to vote based on anti-immigrant sentiment, air those views in public, and/or act openly on them… even up to the point of harassing other people. And it doesn’t seem to have peaked yet. When the three most popular political parties (including the one that’s on its third name but led by the same old face, now joined by the big two) are speaking out against immigrants, we’re in a dark place. This mainstreaming of anti-immigrant feelings (from unease right up to hate) isn’t unique to the UK, but Brexit has been absolutely key to our current political and social transformation. That it “failed” to deliver what was promised is irrelevant, it was never the destination, only part of the journey (to quote a regular here).
North of the border we have a government that argues for controlled immigration and against the detention camps
https://www.snp.org/policy-area/immigration/
North of the border we have a government that argues for controlled immigration and against the detention camps
So what, the Scottish vote is just a rounding error.
It shows another way is possible and politicians can fight back against this tide sucessfully.
9% is not a rounding error anyway.
It also shows that this is NOT a uk issue but an English one in the main. We do have our own bams but anti immigrant rhetoric is not a mainstream scottish issue. Even the tories do not try it here
Do you have to try to be so parochial and offensive or does it just come naturally?
The tipping point for all this in the UK was the Leave campaign of 2016. There'd never been a campaign like it in terms of overt racism. Never.
It really wasn't
It really was.
Whatever you say about the rest of Europe is irrelevant. The Leave campaign was the first mainstream political campaign that was so explicitly and implicitly racist/xenophobic.
Apologists for Brexit will attempt to argue otherwise, but it was the beginning of the current legitimising of racism. A level that has not been seen in at least 40 years.
I remember and was a part of the anti nazi league in the 70s. Racism was not mainstream then as it is now. None of the major parties ran a racist policy platform in the way labour tory and reform do now according to my memory
It shows another way is possible and politicians can fight back against this tide sucessfully.
...
It also shows that this is NOT a uk issue but an English one in the main. We do have our own bams but anti immigrant rhetoric is not a mainstream scottish issue. Even the tories do not try it here
They're not comparable scenarios though. The English hate everyone whereas the Scottish just hate the English.
Awa' and shite cougar.
The English hate everyone whereas the Scottish just hate the English.
I think you'll find that the Scottish also hate everyone unless they are engaged in a sporting event against the English.
It also shows that this is NOT a uk issue but an English one in the main. We do have our own bams but anti immigrant rhetoric is not a mainstream scottish issue. Even the tories do not try it here
Well yeah probably in no small part because there has been far less immigration, something like 90% in Scotland identify as white British/Scottish, whereas across England and Wales it's more like 75%.
Awa' and shite cougar.
🤣 QED.
That reminds me, I saw a sign on a garage the other day and thought of you, so I took a photo.
It also shows that this is NOT a uk issue but an English one in the main. We do have our own bams but anti immigrant rhetoric is not a mainstream scottish issue. Even the tories do not try it here
Well yeah probably in no small part because there has been far less immigration, something like 90% in Scotland identify as white British/Scottish, whereas across England and Wales it's more like 75%.
Possibly but by and large the most racist areas voting for xenophobes are areas with less immigration most multicultural vote less for racists
Dont discount the effect of leadership calling out racism. Even the tories dont try anti immigrant rhetoric up here because they will be called out on it. While politicians in England oander to racists here they call them out
For example. Just one of many
First Minister John Swinney has accused Reform UK of a "racist attack" on Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar.
Both the SNP and Labour have complained to Facebook's parent company Meta about a Reform advert running on the site ahead of a South Lanarkshire by-election.
The video features text claiming Sarwar "will prioritise the ****stani community".
Reform has denied the video is racist and said it has no plans to take it down.
Speaking on the campaign trail ahead of the Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse by-election, Swinney said the advert was "blatantly racist".
He called for Meta to remove the video, telling reporters: "I don't want racism anywhere in any shape or form in our politics there's a responsibility on these social media companies to act."
The first minister said: "Anas Sarwar is a political rival of mine but he should not be subjected to that kind of racist attack."
He urged politicians to "stand in solidarity against" Reform UK leader Nigel Farage.
Scottish Labour had already described the advert as "blatantly racist".
The party complained to Meta two weeks ago, while the SNP lodged a separate complaint on Monday.
The SNP's chief executive, Carol Beattie, said in a letter to the social media firm that the video "crosses the line into race-baiting and scapegoating".
The tipping point for all this in the UK was the Leave campaign of 2016.
I think it started much earlier when the Blair/Brown govt failed to predict the amount of immigration from EU enlargement in 2004. At the time they thought 5000- 13000, when in fact nearly 130000 came in 2004/05.
Possibly but by and large the most racist areas voting for xenophobes are areas with less immigration most multicultural vote less for racists
Just guess work on my part but I reckon in England that's because people see their area change rapidly, don't like it, move away to somewhere with less immigrants and then spend the rest of their lives moaning about it.
Certainly my nan and grandad did so. They were born and bred in Bow (east London) and moved to an area in Essex which is now brexity/reformy (Rayleigh).
Fortunately they mellowed on the subject a lot as they got older but I bet a lot of people do the opposite and dig their feet in about it.
... so?
Because many countries in Europe are experiencing the same thing to the UK. If you look at all the versions adopted by various industrialised countries to assimilate folks from different (mostly ex-colonial) countries cultures and religions in the post war period; France - We're all just French, the Govt is determinately secular. Germany - You can come to live and work here, but the route to citizenship is mostly closed to you, UK - the hope that decades of 'rubbing along' will just create multiculturalism by osmosis have all managed instead to create exactly the same political reaction; the rise of far-right parties that have the rejection of immigration front and centre of their policies that are attracting ever increasing support in every demographic.
We can't just hope that defeating these parties electorally will suffice, that by keeping them out of mainstream politics that the problem will go away. This issue isn't going away by telling folks that they're wrong, racist and stupid - which thus far has been the 'liberal do-gooder' approach.
What's the plan? Because the far right have a plan, so what's our plan?
What's the plan? Because the far right have a plan, so what's our plan?
Call out the racism constantly. Call Farage what he is - a racist and far right. Unmask him. Make the case for immigration. Make the case for inclusion
"Its not where I come from as a person, its where we are going as a nation" Bashir Ahmed
Thats the plan here and it works
Thats the plan here and it works
I think there's a few things in Scotland that makes it difficult to repeat what works there will work in England for example; there's a broad understanding in Scotland that there's a declining population, and immigration is needed to populate otherwise empty places, and fill otherwise empty labour needs, and neither is the case in England - where the overwhelming feeling of folks who're anti-immigration is that England is 'full' and folks need work.
there's a broad understanding in Scotland that there's a declining population, and immigration is needed to populate otherwise empty places, and fill otherwise empty labour needs,
Its exactly the same as in England. Scotland does not have a declining population. Its an aging population just like England
Why is there a difference in understanding? My thesis is the constant calling out of the racists and the pro europe pro immigration stance of the political leadership is the difference - even labour and the tories do not use anti immigration rhetoric here and we have seen labour candidates repudiating the westminster policies
- Scotland’s population was estimated to be 5,546,900 at mid-2024 (30 June 2024).
- The population increased by 40,900 (0.7%) in the year to mid-2024.
- Migration was the main driver of population growth over the latest year. Net international migration was +42,600 in the year to mid-2024. Net migration between elsewhere in the UK and Scotland was +13,800.
- Net migration was positive in all of Scotland’s 32 council areas over the latest year.
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/publications/mid-2024-population-estimates/
Interesting article by Jame Tapper in The Observer today about how the visa costs and NHS levies are discouraging top level scientists and researchers from taking up job offers in Britain. This is delaying and hindering research into various treatments and in particular cancer, it’s also costing these research institutions a lot of money reimbursing applicants who do take up the placements.
My thesis is the constant calling out of the racists and the pro europe pro immigration stance of the political leadership is the difference
I think you're right that leadership is an important factor. But only, I think, if the political leadership broadly reflects its population's already held beliefs (either held intuitively or intellectually) about itself. I think its very difficult/impossible for political leaders in multi party democracies to change that substantially, given their short terms in office. "Cool Britannia" (for example) worked for Blair because nearly everyone wanted to believe it.
Farage is popular and successful largely because he reflects the beliefs of his supporters.
You're right that Scotland is different. John Swinney can say the things he does, because; broadly the population of Scotland see migration as an overall 'good'. [a large part of ] England doesn't hold those beliefs, so what's the plan to move from England to Scotalnd's belief about itself?
The pro immigration pro europe view has been built and nurtured over decades. That Bashir Ahmed quote is from decades ago before the SNP gained power IIRC
What it would take for England ( I do not know enough about wales to comment) is for the political leadership to show that leadership - as I believe London Mayors have done ( maybe Manchester as well?)
Callout the racists. Ostracise them. Make the case that we need immigrants. Stop letting the racists set the agenda
Do you have to try to be so parochial and offensive or does it just come naturally?
Just comes naturally. I am parochial yet at every opportunity you point out how it is different in Scotland. I wasn't being parochial or offensive, just pointing out that what is done in Scotland and how people vote there is largely an irrelevance. You may not like that but can't argue with it.
I actually think Scottish people generally have a better outlook on things politically and would probably move there if it wasn't too cold. (You can tell I am not really affected by what actually happens in UK politics!)
A more accurate reason for any 'breaking point' being reached (in Western Europe world at least) is probably this:
The elderly haven't done anything wrong. I would never suggest any sort of campaign to attribute 'blame' to them... but it's the biggest problem that we face at the moment.
Not enough housing? Can't get a GP appointment? Hospital wards full? Councils going bankrupt? Think about it.
Politics in itself is about self-promotion. In order to get a vote - politicians will say whatever they need to say. They cannot risk losing a huge number of votes by stating that the country is at breaking point because Britain is far too old...
But don't be fooled:
1) Leaders will publicly state that immigration is out of control (and that they will tackle it). To keep voters happy.
2) ...secretly, they'll be doing everything they can to get young workers into the UK. To prevent services from collapsing.
The last census pointed out a shift that couldn't be ignored - e.g. many young workers have gone back to the EU.
Other countries (with a younger population) have been in our crosshairs since then. It is no accident that migration from non-EU countries has increased.
Other western countries face the same problem - we are competing with them to attract young workers. The most successful country will be the one that attracts the most, whilst moaning the least!
just pointing out that what is done in Scotland and how people vote there is largely an irrelevance. You may not like that but can't argue with it.
Did you actually bother to read what I posted? Its an example of a different way of dealing with the racists and it has worked. It is completely relevant to the discussion of racism in the UK to show how a part of the UK has challenged it.
would the spanish example be any better for you? they have also successfully fought against the tide of racism I believe using similar tactics
I wish it weren't so, but your argument is a false equivalence because neither Scotland nor Spain is full of the English.
I have no doubts that it can be done, but it's going to take more than a glib "look, we did it, why don't you" sticking plaster answer to unpack several decades of resentment. (Something I'm surprised to be having to explain to a Scotsman.)
Its merely an example of the fightback against the racists and that despite the mood on here being that "nothing can be done" it shows something can be done.
Thats all - its an example of how to combat the racists - take them on head on rather than pander to them
Meanwhile, in yesterday's exciting instalment of Local Social Media Gems:
would the spanish example be any better for you? they have also successfully fought against the tide of racism I believe using similar tactics
The Spanish example wouldn't be any better than rural France that I saw on the thread earlier. If you are using the relatively low score VOX get compared with other European far right parties as a measure don't, there's institutionalised racism in the mainstream. Check out: scrub that you check.
Concrete examples of the conditions immigrants live in and work in in Spain:
Way beyond what Farrage demands:
No one has to come here illegally. Those fearing persecution are of course welcome but none have come directly from the county they were persecuted in. The fact that 700,000 were accepted, quite frankly a mind boggling number, but it shows that once in a safe country then you can apply through the uk embassy.
People would also be more accepting if there was any evidence to show how many people who arrived illegally were refused permission to stay and then how long it took to deport them. If it was shown that process worked in a timely manner it would go along way to help change minds
Sorry, but bollocks can they apply from a UK embassy. We don’t allow that for some stupid reason. They have to be physically in the UK in order to apply. So how do they get here if they don’t already have permission?
If they try to - entry gets denied. It’s as simple as that. Just like me trying to get into Australia without a visa, it isn’t happening. And most airlines will check your documents before they let you on a flight, so they don’t have the cost of bringing you back if denied entry. So you usually can’t even get on a plane here.
Callout the racists. Ostracise them. Make the case that we need immigrants. Stop letting the racists set the agenda
Cool, so keep on telling the racists that they're racist stupid and wrong? Hasn't worked so far, but we just tell them they're stupid racist and wrong harder, I'm sure it'll work in the end.
As above - its not been done in England and its worked in Scotland - you even agreed above
No one cares about your accusations of racism anymore. In the past it was an effective weapon to use against those that have anything negative to say about immigration but its been overused to the point of irrelevance. It's much the same as cries of antisemitism whenever anyone criticises Israel, it's become meaningless.
Callout the racists. Ostracise them. Make the case that we need immigrants. Stop letting the racists set the agenda
Cool, so keep on telling the racists that they're racist stupid and wrong? Hasn't worked so far, but we just tell them they're stupid racist and wrong harder, I'm sure it'll work in the end.
Not sure why the need to insult intelligence. Why not instead ask for elaboration, as to what it involves, how we go about it, etc.
No one cares about your accusations of racism anymore. In the past it was an effective weapon to use against those that have anything negative to say about immigration but its been overused to the point of irrelevance. It's much the same as cries of antisemitism whenever anyone criticises Israel, it's become meaningless.
IMHO you're right but for the wrong reasons. No-one cares about accusations of racism anymore because they're no longer ashamed of it. Haven't you noticed, "I'm not racist but..." has quietly turned into "well if this makes me racist then..."
No-one cares about accusations of racism anymore because they're no longer ashamed of it.
Agree, and tackling that is a bit harder than "setting a narrative". Unfortunately we need to have Reform running things for 5 years so they are faced with the challenge of actually implementing anything. Farage knows as well as we do that we need immigration otherwise the country would collapse so after he's sorted out asylum seekers, which will make very little noticeable difference to pretty much everyone, what is he going to do then?
Reform doesn’t have to achieve anything positive in office. If they do the negative stuff loudly enough, they can take what they want, and take us where they want.
I guess so. Luckily I will be retired by then and can go and live somewhere in Europe if I can find somewhere that is not going the same way.
Unfortunately we need to have Reform running things for 5 years so they are faced with the challenge of actually implementing anything.
It won't work.
Look at their target demographic: People who want to "win"; people who consider blue passports to be a victory; people bothered about sovereignty (despite being unable to spell it) rather than being told what to do by Brussels; people with "genuine concerns"; people who would rather see a hotel empty than used by homeless foreigners; folk who are so patriotic that they take to the streets waving flags outside a mosque without first spending three seconds to google which way round it goes.
Reform could do **** all for a term in office, maybe commission a commemorative 50p coin or something, and those voting for them won't care because we won you lost shut up.
what is he going to do then?
Laugh all the way to the bank like the working-class man of the people he is.
That Bannon speech is old news, Kelvin, 2018, around the time Jamby of this forum was predicting a Le Pen victory in the next presidential elections. A two-round electoral system is holding off the extreme right here for the moment but the UK doesn't have that two-round luxury.
Local social media, again.
Margaret Casey
18h
Preston, England
The turn Britain into an islamic state with Sharia Law party. Where all the women and girls will be like slaves.
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"They" being Corbyn.
Unfortunately it's the weaponisation of people too dim to know better.
There's a brilliant argument for authoritarian (and worse goverments) for defunding education, as over time the general public will start believing the propaganda.
Keep them dumb and angry and they are a useful tool.
It's why you litteraly get people voting in direct contradiction to thier own interests.
All you need is a good scape goat... It happened with brexit, it's happening to a worse extent in the USA right now..
And the Farages and Tommy Robinsons of this country are taking notes.
Exactly the same thing is happening on the south coast of Spain, some stay to work in plastic city (where do people think their off season fruits and veggies come from?) and some move up through france and beyond.
Governments love to demonise them, but they don't seem too bothered about the slave plantation owners who pay them very low wages in cash.
I guess it's also not too dissimilar from the republicans in the USA attacking immigrants, when it's the black market domestic modern slavers who are paying them cash in hand for a lower hourly rate than 'genuine' employees.
As a business owner, why pay higher wages when you can just blame someone else?
"Why are people so against immigration?"
For a definitive answer it's probably best to ask this question off an Australian Aborigine, or the First Peoples of the Americas.
All you need is a good scape goat... It happened with brexit, it's happening to a worse extent in the USA right now..
And the Farages and Tommy Robinsons of this country are taking notes.
Taking notes? They're the same thing. I'd have a tenner on Farage being funded and supported by the same people as Trump. Same strategies. And Tommy Robinson is a useful prop on Farage's right so that Farage can look more 'moderate' and 'not like those racists'.
Unfortunately we need to have Reform running things for 5 years so they are faced with the challenge of actually implementing anything.
So many supporters of Brexit and Reform don't see the flaws in those plans as the fault of their glorious leaders. They blame others rather than look at themselves. Same thing every time. After a few years of Reform's circus a lot of the people who support Reform will simply be poorer and angrier as well as emboldened by a few BS immigration policies.
Unfortunately it's the weaponisation of people too dim to know better.
Totally this.
Also, social media is a fantastic tool for targeting and isolating people who would never engage with 'news' otherwise. It is especially effective on those who don't realise it is being done to them.
🤷♂️
Just been listening to R4 on the way to work. Didn’t get to hear the end, but the kipper bobblehead, managed to admit they’d pay the Taliban to take back migrants.
Also they seem to be borrowing many of their ideas from the Donald…
kipper bobblehead
Aka Zia Yusuf. I don't think he has read "Uncle Tom's Cabin".
The interviewer should challenge him to turn up to one of these asylum hotel mob events in regular clothes, with no bodyguards and not telling anyone who he is. See how the ****er gets on with the kind of yobs he is courting.
The ****.
I listened to that nonsense. In reality what would happen is that they’d be paying the Taliban to torture then kill every deportee the second they get off the plane. That’ll be a good look for the UK, internationally
Anyway… Nige is going to make a speech this morning with his definitely workable and realistic proposals…
Unfortunately it's the weaponisation of people too dim to know better
There's the nauseous lefty moral superiority again. And I say that as a lefty.
My mum is against uncontrolled immigration which invariably ends up tipping into the channel crossings when it's discussed. She's also degree educated, extremely successful, has negotiated cross-border agreements to allow continuation if of critical health-related services in the wake of Russia sanctions and later Brexit, and until retirement was chairperson on a board that dictates a lot of how certain areas of both public and private health services operate. She is in no way, shape, or form "dim".
But it's an easy thing to point at to make yourself feel as though you've got a handle on the problem, eh?
I think most people are against uncontrolled immigration, aren't they?
Good job we don't have it. 🙂
Just wondering how Labour are getting on in forwarding the exact same narratives as all the bat-shit righties?
It would probably help if we didn't have 3 major parties failing to help the situation by going 'ugh we're stuck with this, let's just see who can make the most degenerative arguments.'
Of course buck stops with Labour currently who are doing a sterling job. Labour have a choice to not put Farage into power.
To answer the original question: I think there's always been about 20% of hardline English insecure islander types - that's never going away. This has then been totally exacerbated by the current form of capitalism failing to deliver for the rest of the frustrated bunch that then get pulled into the argument and blame foreigners for successive government failures. The resentment then goes mainstream - which is where we are. Then there's the misplaced version of patriotism - flags etc rather than true patriotism (looking after the weak.)
I'd say start by fixing the stuff that makes a material difference and I bet some of the street anxiety will go away. (Banish centrism to the spreadsheet in the sky for failing to deal with just about everything related to material reality too.)
I agree it's very difficult and nothing is going to be totally fixed (such is society) but it sure would help if government's looked at the state of post-Thatcher Britain in less than stock-market casino terms.
And then you've got social media. Well at this point in my life I'd be more or less happy to see that go but it's probably part of our fabric now and at the same time more authoritarianism seems to breed even more resentment.
In short no easy answers but that's why we elect governments to do a job.
Just wondering how Labour are getting on in forwarding the exact same narratives as all the bat-shit righties?
It would probably help if we didn't have 3 major parties failing to help the situation by going 'ugh we're stuck with this, let's just see who can make the most degenerative arguments.'
Of course buck stops with Labour currently who are doing a sterling job. Labour have a choice to not put Farage into power.
To answer the original question: I think there's always been about 20% of hardline English insecure islander types - that's never going away. This has then been totally exacerbated by the current form of capitalism failing to deliver for the rest of the frustrated bunch that then get pulled into the argument and blame foreigners for successive government failures. The resentment then goes mainstream - which is where we are. Then there's the misplaced version of patriotism - flags etc rather than true patriotism (looking after the weak.)
I'd say start by fixing the stuff that makes a material difference and I bet some of the street anxiety will go away. (Banish centrism to the spreadsheet in the sky for failing to deal with just about everything related to material reality too.)
I agree it's very difficult and nothing is going to be totally fixed (such is society) but it sure would help of government's looked at the state of post-Thatcher Britain in less than stock-market casino terms.
And then you've got social media. Well at this point in my life I'd be more or less happy to see that go but it's probably part of our fabric now and at the same time more authoritarianism seems to breed even more resentment.
In short no easy answers but that's why we elect governments to do a job.
In reality what would happen is that they’d be paying the Taliban to torture then kill every deportee the second they get off the plane. That’ll be a good look for the UK, internationally
That's the look many Reform supporters want(?)
I think most people are against uncontrolled immigration, aren't they?
Good job we don't have it.
Quite. But that isn't going to get in the way of a good rant, though.
There's the nauseous lefty moral superiority again.
Are you going to go with "metropolitan elite" and "activist judges and lawyers" at some point too?
Just need to check my bingo card. 👍
That the post-war mass immigration/movement of people into Europe of the last 60 years or so (call it what you want) must come to an end is now mainstream and popular.
This is obvious and there can be no doubt in anyone's minds anymore. If things like Brexit, the election of Meloni or the near miss of Le Pen, the popularity of Farage haven't already. Call it racist, call it the notion that "we're full" call it part of the culture war whatever, doesn't matter. Rightly or wrongly (again doesn't really mater) it's not just the folks that are willing to riot, but like @TheFlyingOx mum, (my parents are similar) enough people are now broadly "anti-immigration" including 2/3rd Gen families of immigrants that political parties need to to take it into account when developing policy. They run more focus groups and polling that we care to imagine, and none of them can be unclear on where an awful lot of 'regular' folks stand now.
Good job we don't have it.
Which I assume is why there's a government page specifically for it.
Just need to check my bingo card.
My "Low Effort Virtue Signaller" one was checked off a while back.
Ask yourself a question? When was the last time someone whose opinion you disagreed with was persuaded to change their stance after you called them an idiot? Because that's all the "Unfortunately it's the weaponisation of people too dim to know better" echo chamber is, ultimately.
You can smirk and sneer at me and my comments all you like, but you're just talking round in circles, confident that as long as other people agree with you that you're on the right side of the issue, achieving nothing, too busy with the idea of not being racist to figure out that you're only alienating the people you think are the problem.
1d·Ewood
We must stop pussy footing about the real issue. Anyone living in Blackburn and other northern towns know that the town is largely segregated. No one in their right mind would drive through certain areas waving a symbol of " Britishness " especially at times like Friday prayers. It's not about race it's about religion. I am scared. As an infidel there are a very small group of people who's God has decreed that infidels must be killed and are willing to do so at the cost of their lives and many innocent men, women, and children. I thought long and hard before posting this however I don't see how it's context can be disputed. Stay safe and well Bob 🙏.
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