I did, and I liked, but it was just a flash in the pan
For non-developed land
What about "developed land"? An anecdotal example... was in a Cornish village a week ago... one of the properties, inhabited by a couple with no dependents living with them, used more land than 100+ other properties. Okay, they might need their helicopter landing pad, both their tennis courts, etc... but that still leaves enough land for 100s of other people to live on, without being slightly cramped. We have lots of "spare" land in the UK, it's just concentrated in the hands of the few. Property inequality is a huge problem in the UK... but if we can blame the immigrants for that, the people might overlook what should be obvious... there's loads of room here... if you're rich.
Either you didn't watch it or you're not a morning person.
Seen it before. Until folks who're pro-immigration and folks who're anti-immigration are clear and agree about the pros and cons of one of the largest political. social, and economic events in our lifetime, It'll end up like every other political debate, which to paraphrase: Is like watching two expert tennis players executing perfectly timed shots at each other while playing on completely different courts.
We have lots of "spare" land in the UK
On the scale of national or regional what I'm seeing is not that we have "lots" but maybe we have "enough". Is there an estimate on how much land is needed in each region?
When that happens to people, lots of them will push back. if we're at all going to have a sensible discussion about modern mass migration, then we are at some point going to have to stop calling those that push against as gammon-faced Reform supporters and those that support it as liberal do-gooders.
Ok then, start that "sensible discussion", what do you want to see happen? You are always keen to find fault with what others are saying without actually stating you own position.
I, like others, think that austerity and the lack of investment in the "straining infrastructure" is the major problem, but the again you also argue for continued austerity on many political threads, so how about a bit of honesty for a change, no framing it as "Starmer has to be racist because that's what the voters want" as is your usual MO, what policies do you want?
I look at immigration totally objectively based on what the country needs and how people need to act when wishing to work in the country.
- We don't need Asylum seekers so don't have them
- We don't need people who are not prepared to integrate (speak the language, leave anything behind that doesn't fit with UK culture i.e. treatment of women, all live in one area isolating from others and so on)
Control those things (which are nothing to do with racism) and I believe it would be going a lot better than it is and immigration would no longer be thought to be a a bad thing by many of those who today feel it is.
I'd ask, ... Why are people so keen on migration. I can't see the attraction at the rate it is.To get a better quality of life, a better job, more opportunities. That's why i emigrated anyway.
People who live amongst it daily have less liberal views.Do i? I spent most of my adult life living in areas with high, or very high immigration. I work with immigrants, have dated immigrants and i am now an immigrant. I also live close to one of Hatie Kopkins Swedish "no go zones", which is nothing of the sort, and completely made up by dickheads in the media (right wing of course).
It's nothing of the sort. It's just a normal deprived area of the nearest city. If anything, it's more pleasant than many areas in the UK with bugger all immigrants, like most of Hull, or Darlington.
- We don't need Asylum seekers so don't have them
you appear to be conflating economic migrants with asylum seekers.
neither of which are why everything feels like its going to shit.
- We don't need Asylum seekers so don't have them
- We don't need people who are not prepared to integrate
Control those things (which are nothing to do with racism)
Saying we don't need asylum seekers so don't allow them into the UK sounds pretty racist to me. As does the claim that anyone who wants to maintain their ethnic and cultural ties shouldn't be allowed in either.
I know that Nigel Farage would vehemently deny that he is a racist but I wouldn't hesitate to describe him as one precisely because he comes out with shite like that.
locals used to able to get a secure (all be it dull factory-line) job at the local chicken processing plant (3rd largest in the country) It became cheaper for the plant to sub contract those jobs to an agency, and it became cheaper for the agency to fill those places with immigrants. Locals can't get work there any more.
A point this conveniently skips over is that most locals probably don't want to work there any more. Is there a huge amount of applicants from local people all being rejected in favour of migrant workers who are somehow cheaper than the minimum living wage being offered to people of a fairer hue? I'd bet good money there isn't.
Bloody immigrants, coming over here and taking our jobs that we won't do.
In less than a decade local folks were pushed out of jobs that generations before them have worked in.
"Pushed out" how exactly? An army of Papa Lazarus turning up on site one day going "hello Dave, you're my job now"?
Why would an employer choose a migrant worker over a local? Unlikely morally-driven altruism aside they're either cheaper (which must mean being employed illegally) or work harder (hardly their fault if the incumbents are bone idle).
A friend of mine had a seasonal job fruit-picking for a few years. She told me, she couldn't compete with the Eastern European migrant workers there, they worked like machines. A typical Polish worker was harvesting double what a typical English 'native' was taking. It took two seasons for her output to come even close to what they were turning out day-on-day.
They're not "coming over here pushing us out of our jobs" because of preferential treatment, rather the so-called low-skilled workers are better than we are at jobs we don't want to do anyway.
- We don't need Asylum seekers so don't have them
The idea that rejecting asylum seekers isn't racist is a lie, it is quite clearly rather nasty, cruel and racist.
Control those things (which are nothing to do with racism)
It has everything to do with racism. With a side order of gross hypocrisy as what you've just described is exactly what Brits do when they up sticks to retire to Costa Del Bollocks, only when we do it we're not immigrants, we're ex-pats.
Control those things (which are nothing to do with racism)
It has everything to do with racism. With a side order of gross hypocrisy because what you've just described is exactly what Brits do when we up sticks to retire to the Costa Del Bollocks, except when we do it we aren't immigrants, we're ex-pats.
Brits do when they up sticks to retire to Costa Del Bollocks, only when we do it we're not immigrants, we're ex-pats.
Ah yes, but look at how well the British integrated with the local people and cultures back in the days of the British Empire.
I mean is there anything more British than a nice cuppa?
Or turning up legless for a curry at an Indian restaurant on a Friday night?
(test, ignore)
They're not "coming over here pushing us out of our jobs" because of preferential treatment, rather the so-called low-skilled workers are better than we are at jobs we don't want to do anyway.
Somehow I doubt that'll win the hearts and minds of now unemployed locals who've lost their jobs to immigrants.
"Pushed out" how exactly? An army of Papa Lazarus turning up on site one day going "hello Dave, you're my job now"
Recruitment agencies allow management to not hire permanent staff. They'd cart people from town to the factory (in a former mining village) on mini buses. A good proportion were immigrants. They'd be treated like shit by some of the permanent staff (so was I come to that). Not sure if it's changed, but when I did it, we wouldn't know from one day to the next if there was work for us or not. Just be woken with a call at 4:30am asking if we could get in for 6am. Think it was a couple of months before they told me to just turn up every day (I'd graduated from university so hadn't been super keen).
Not sure if it's changed, but when I did it, we wouldn't know from one day to the next if there was work for us or not. Just be woken with a call at 4:30am asking if we could get in for 6am.
You're bemoaning our employment laws in the UK there... which isn't the fault of immigrants.
---------------------------------
Worth watching this bill...
https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3737
Summary/intro...
I worked in South Wales around 10-15 years ago. The mines etc had closed decades previously of course, but talking and listening to the locals discuss what their husbands/fathers/brothers were facing it seemed the factory workers were experiencing a similar cull to their employment. As sirromj explains, agencies were providing companies with cheap flexible labour at the cost of locals; yes of course that was down to the UK government employment laws - but all the locals seen was their wages and job conditions being forced down by these foreign people happy for significantly less money. It didnt come as a surprise when I recently read that the former Labour strong holds of the South Wales valleys are expected to be strong Reform voting areas now.
What do you think has happened in such industries in areas where there hasn’t been much immigration? Lots of highly paid jobs for life in factories? No sharp practices by employers? No real terms wage deflation since 2008?
, leave anything behind that doesn't fit with UK culture
What is "Uk culture" out of curiosity? I can assure you it's not one big homogenous concept that everyone in the UK adheres to and even for people born and bred here for generations, it can look very different.
I think people that drink in Wetherspoons are gap toothed barely literate plebs, but 'spoons is very much part of British culture. Do i have to partake in that to be British, or can I just accept people are into different things and let them do them and I'll do me and we'll all get on with our lives just fine?
What is "Uk culture" out of curiosity?
We're keeping curry, yeah? Losing bubble tea is fine by me.
Also... happy to give away football as our gift to the world if we get to keep the foreign born pursuits of skateboarding and, er... mountain biking... whether they fit with "UK culture" or not.
What about music...?
Who was it that said at least the working class and upper class have one thing in common; their hatred of the middle classes?
Im all for immigration- the problem is finding somewhere that will let me stay there, and work and own property, without depositing millions
Bloody immigrants, coming over here and taking our jobs that we won't do.
Yes you're probably right, they may not want to do those jobs, but you could get them and they paid. You can't work in the chicken processing plant unless you go through one of the agencies, and they won't sign up UK nationals. In Brackley the options are; livestock farming - mostly growing chicken - again, work now done by migrants or otherwise, giant fields of wheat/barley -work done by machines, and motorsport. One of those things you could get work if you don't do too well at school, the other needs a degree in rocket science and you're in competition with folks from all over the world . The other problem with motorsport is that it pays well, so the folks that work at Mercedes or Aston Martin can afford to price locals out of the 3 bed box estate houses that are springing up all around Brackley, the surrounding villages are way out of the price range of locals anyway.
The next options for someone with a handful of GCSC's is work in either Northampton- warehousing mostly because of the proximity of the M1 or Banbury - warehousing mostly - because of it's proximity to the M40, so the jobs there are still min wage, but now you've got to buy a car to get to work. Brackley doesn't have a train station so otherwise you're reliant on rural buses. that's £20 return/day to Northampton or £10.00 to Banbury, and you're still in competition with migrants who can under cut you (see the agency work) or often times; can out educate you.
Now, it should be writ in giant flashing neon lights that; None Of That Is The Fault Of Migrants, but they are doing the jobs that locals otherwise would've, and that's a fact in places like Brackley. Call it the global economy, call it the greed of corporations, but the hammer still falls on people who haven't got the ability to do anything about either of them other than to try to get another low-paid job - but now with added costs, and at the expense of local folks from those areas, and they still see those jobs going to folks who've in their minds, turned up yesterday. - again they may have wanted something better, but you could buy a house and you could grow a family - their parents did after all when the rural councils leased farms and you could get cheap council housing...It is no surprise that Brackley has a Reform lead council - (from the Tories, who bankrupted the previous council; if you're interested)
Having said all that, I'm still in favour of migration, we don't make enough babies, we don't train enough people to be doctors or whatever, and we still need an economy that grows (despite the obvious issues around that). But places like Brackley and Boston and Warrington and South Wales need investment and work, business need support so that they're not encouraged to use agencies constantly, folks need education and grants to set up their own business that employ other local folks, and councils need to be able to build housing (even if that's on allotments).
What is "Uk culture" out of curiosity?
It isn't FMG, or force feeding women, or child brides, son preference, or denying women rights over their own finance or fertility, or slavery for example. If folks want to live and work here, it isn't outrageous to make basic English a requirement, and to leave some of their own 'heritage' behind.
There are laws against most of those things. We’re not asking what’s legal here, we’re asking what people must not “bring with them” in terms of culture? So much of UK culture is all about what people “bring with them” and refuse to leave behind. We pick these things up as “locals” and enrich our culture with them.
Right, I’m off to listen to the Specials…
If folks want to live and work here, it isn't outrageous to make basic English a requirement,
Sorry, if you want to go down that road then it has to be a choice between English, Gaelic, Welsh, or Irish since we're not allowed devolved immigration policies.
We should probably add Norman French to that list as well since it's the only 'official' language England has.
@nickc, looking for jobs within 5 miles of Brackley there's 100+ jobs and quite a variety, including some in food processing not through an agency.
Why would an employer choose a migrant worker over a local? Unlikely morally-driven altruism aside they're either cheaper (which must mean being employed illegally)
Not every job is minimum wage, so you could easily employ someone who's desperate to get the money for less than someone else is earning. Not saying I don't agree with you to an extent over this, but it's not black and white.
Why is it you never read about companies being prosecuted for illegally employing or allowing them to work for them via any means. All these illegals are clearly earning money somewhere so why no prosecutions
business need support so that they're not encouraged to use agencies constantly
The management of those businesses chose to use agencies no one encouraged them. Like underfunding schooling, health and dentistry are choices and we need to rail against this not accept it like lambs to slaughter. How you say? The good old-fashioned boycott works well in these cases and a dash of some really bad publicity.
Why is it you never read about companies being prosecuted for illegally employing or allowing them to work for them via any means.
Theres been a number of TV programs showing immigration/police raiding restaurants for illegal workers.
The restaurants are also exploiting these workers, paying only a few pounds an hour.
Wouldn't it be so much easier if they were allowed to work while awaiting their hearing or judgement. Good for them, good for the economy, better for the taxpayer.
Wouldn't it be so much easier if they were allowed to work while awaiting their hearing or judgement. Good for them, good for the economy, better for the taxpayer.
Only if you can find them when their hearing finds against them and actually deport them.
Wouldn't it be so much easier if they were allowed to work while awaiting their hearing or judgement. Good for them, good for the economy, better for the taxpayer.
Only if you can find them when their hearing finds against them and actually deport them.
Thats a difference set of circumstances, and would need to be addressed when and where it becomes relevant.
Always best sticking to one thing at a time.
You can't work in the chicken processing plant unless you go through one of the agencies, and they won't sign up UK nationals.
Assuming for the sake of argument that this is actually true and not something someone's told you they read in the Brackley Gazette once,
Why?
If folks want to live and work here, it isn't outrageous to make basic English a requirement, and to leave some of their own 'heritage' behind.
From the receiving end... @nickc - how basic would your English requirement be? And how long would they be allowed to learn English after arriving before having to pass a test? I reckon my French after a year in France was probably 'Caveman' level. 'Hello! Me, her, eat, yes?'
I appreciate that, were I to want French nationality, which I can (generously, and currently, well unless LePen gets in...) apply for after five years, I should be able to chat easily in French. And, in fact, the level has just been raised from B1 to B2 (high intermediate level).
But I'm currently grateful that my yearly residence permit (post-Brexit, which is ENTIRELY due to having a wife with a German passport) doesn't require a language test. It does, however, require my wife to show that she earns at least minimum wage and that we have somewhere to live. Were I trying to do this in reverse in the UK, I would find it pretty intimidating...
And which bits of my British 'heritage' should I look to lose? Like chatting in English with other English/Irish folks I meet in the cafe? That'd be a hard one... Or my love of binge drinking and finishing a bottle of wine, even though I've finished eating my meal? Playing blues music at home at a decent volume? Putting butter on croissants and baguettes?
Currently, I'm terrified that the knobbers will get in at the next election and I'll get turfed out by the right-wingers, along with my (half) German wife... Because foriners is foriners.
it should be writ in giant flashing neon lights that; None Of That Is The Fault Of Migrants, but
... but what? If it's not the fault of the migrants then why do you keep bringing them into the discussion?
they are doing the jobs that locals otherwise would've,
Again, why?
I'm still in favour of migration, we don't make enough babies
You do realise that brown people are going to be having brown babies, right?
What's the difference between your "local" people, people who seemingly "just turned up yesterday" somehow magically eligible to work in the UK, and people born here from parents who turned up the day before?
councils need to be able to build housing (even if that's on allotments).
Looks like there's going to be a lot of building jobs available, then. Who's going to be doing that do we suppose?
And very expensive. However, total cost of my French naturalisation 20 years back: the cost of a few translations.Were I trying to do this in reverse in the UK, I would find it pretty intimidating...
It strikes me your British 'heritage' foibles are very French. 🙂
Five years to get to B2, no problem.
There are laws against most of those things.
That is missing the point. The fact that those activities are part of a culture that someone is happy with is not something I think we need in this country.
The same as everyone living together within their culture because again it doesn't really fit with the vulture they have moved into.
Yes, I realise it is the same as UK people living in Spain but if I was Spanish talking about Spain I would be referring to this UK people in exactly the same way.
agree one thing at once and top of that list is knowing where those who enter illegally are
Wouldn't it be so much easier if they were allowed to work while awaiting their hearing or judgement. Good for them, good for the economy, better for the taxpayer.
Only if you can find them when their hearing finds against them and actually deport them.
Thats a difference set of circumstances, and would need to be addressed when and where it becomes relevant.
Always best sticking to one thing at a time.
I agree and top of the list is knowing where all those who have entered illegally are so they are able to go through due process as quickly as possible. Those with valid claims then get the right to stay the rest get sent home. Not having the spending months trying to find them
They've already started down that route in Sweden. The knobbers got in and are desperately trying to pull up the various ladders to citizenship. Finland and Italy going the same way from what i understand...Currently, I'm terrified that the knobbers will get in at the next election and I'll get turfed out by the right-wingers, along with my (half) German wife... Because foriners is foriners.
Why would letting them work make them hard to find? On the contrary if they are turning up to a regular workplace that seems like it would make it particularly easy to pick them up...
Or my love of binge drinking and finishing a bottle of wine, even though I've finished eating my meal?
Looks like I may be French!
Putting butter on croissants
That seals it, I am French. Chipps you are a savage, sir!
Ahh, but my point is that my behaviour isn't French, it's British. The French will leave a half bottle of wine if they've finished eating, because they've finished the meal, so why would they want to keep drinking wine? And croissants (or the good ones at least) are made with so much butter that they think it savage to add even more butter...
The French will leave a half bottle of wine if they've finished eating, because they've finished the meal, so why would they want to keep drinking wine?
What do they think about finishing half a bottle of wine after you've got home from the pub because that's all the alcohol you've got left in the house?
From the receiving end... @nickc - how basic would your English requirement be?
The difference is that you're not going to have part of your pay packet taken off you, or have your access to healthcare controlled. So enough so that they're less vulnerable. Enough to read a pay slip, enough to make an appointment and speak with a GP, or a cop or the housing team at the council, or chat to your neighbour over the fence. It it comes down largely to vulnerability and exploitation. Educated people, people who can speak English, people who have basic numeracy are harder to exploit. The folks coming over on small boats from Afghanistan, Somalia, Eretria, South Sudan often speak a regional/tribal dialect, Afghanistan has perhaps over 200, South Sudan has at least 60 ingenious languages let alone regional dialectics , getting translators for them here is difficult, and it's easier to fall prey to someone who can speak your language. With English you make yourself just a bit less vulnerable.
If we accept these folks as asylum seekers, then we're accepting a duty of care for them, and the very least of that we should do is to teach them (for free) the language of the country that they've found themselves in. Learning to speak read and write English gives them access to work, and education, and most importantly perhaps is that it enables young women to access healthcare independently.
And which bits of my British 'heritage' should I look to lose?
If it was British 'heritage' to slice off bits of your daughter's lady-parts and sew the rest up, I'd say those are the bits you could probs lose...
