There's a big temptation in the mountains to travel light and leave the map at home, especially in familiar terrain - but it's still not advisable as it may leave one unable to operate in an unexpected situation. Maybe you've taken the wrong ridgeline down in the mist and ended up in an unknown location, you whip the electric device out to find the cold has killed the battery perhaps or theres no gps signal in your steep sided gorge - maybe you encounter someone who needs aid or rescue, relaying a grid reference off a map should be just as easy as getting gps coordinates off a device...assuming the device is working, which they don't always...they can get wet, you can drop it and smash the screen. Unlikely, but then unlikely things happen when you start descending the incident spiral. Its always good to carry a map.
maybe you encounter someone who needs aid or rescue, relaying a grid reference off a map should be just as easy as getting gps coordinates off a device
Several times I've been out on the hills, met someone a bit lost, and shown them on their map where they are by using my phone. Just because it's perceived as reliable doesn't mean it always works.
If there is a reliability issue with electronic maps, and IME experience there really isn't, then its easy to take a backup. On top of that there are usually other devices in the group.
Don't get me wrong, I love a paper map, I just prefer a digital one for actual use
Another luddite here, aways take an OS map. I'm worried, perhaps irrationally, that I'll forget how to navigate with map and compass if I don't practice regularly. I do have maps on my phone and occasionally use it to confirm my position in poor vis, but try not to rely on it.
To me it's a bit like driving somewhere unfamiliar. If I rely on the Satnav I sometimes drive with my mind in neutral and get to my destination without a clue of which roads I've used and which towns and villages I've passed. If I look at a paper road atlas I have a much better overview of the route, points of interest and alternative routes and am much more likely to remember the route for future reference.
Not a perfect analogy granted, but I just feel I relate more to the ground I'm walking on if I study a paper map.
maybe you encounter someone who needs aid or rescue, relaying a grid reference off a map should be just as easy as getting gps coordinates off a device
The three word thing is the preferred method now, prompted by most MR organisations - much less likely to make a mistake.
I learnt old school navigation with my sliva compass back in the 70s, and I love maps. They're absolutely essential for bogs. Including the en suite. But it's been quite a while since I'll have actually taken one outdoors. I would if I was somewhere remote in scotland I guess, but dales, lakes, ny moors tend to know pretty well the high up stuff. And a phone is just better for fiddly rambling stuff through fields. And my watch works as a compass for a small amount of belt/braces.
If I'm in a new area - of the pyrenees say - it's a real treat to buy the paper map and have a browse. And those french ones are nice and light for going into a pocket, unlike the clonking OS, works of art though they are.
The three word thing is the preferred method now, prompted by most MR organisations –
Has this changed? I haven't seen any MRTs expressing a preference for WTW. I've seen plenty saying they can and will use it but it's not a preference.
unless its changed scottish mountain rescue prefer an os grid reference, will take co ordinates and can use 3 words but prefer not.
Less of an issue on the hill, contours don’t tend to change much
It doesn't happen often, but I've been caught out before by a footpath that's changed drastically.
unless its changed scottish mountain rescue prefer an os grid reference, will take co ordinates and can use 3 words but prefer not.
The statements I've seen about it have been pretty carefully worded so as not to express a preference. Things along the lines of 'we'll act on any and all location info'. It would be hard to see MRT expressing a preference for a commercial system over tried and trusted open source systems. Also, by suggesting a preferred method they'd potentially be putting people off using other methods.
It doesn’t happen often, but I’ve been caught out before by a footpath that’s changed drastically.
Paths definitely change. The path to Macdui between Coire an Lochain and Lurchers is shown in the wrong place on the current 1:50,000. It's an older path line which is shown and will make no difference to anyone really. I only noticed because I was running a navigation course and we were checking off features, the map said it should be burn then path and it was path then burn.
unless its changed scottish mountain rescue prefer an os grid reference, will take co ordinates and can use 3 words but prefer not.
I've always kinda assumed that's "we'd quite like people to have a map, and to know how to use it, before heading out"
But you’re only likely to be doing that to establish/confirm your position, aren’t you? And if you’ve got a little electronic map in your hand that says “you are here” why would you need to?
The big issue with electronic maps is you're inevitably looking at only a couple of map squares and a little arrow. Which is fine until it breaks, (or the person holding it falls off a cliff). At which point you have no idea where you are, where the route, or any alternatives are.
Whereas a paper map forces you to know where you are and where you're going in a wider context.
And using it is inevitably a "social" task so more members of the group know where they are too.
Cycling is different, having to stop and read a map is frustrating. And your escape options are more limited to generally keeping going or turning back and then following a road home. Barring the kind of serious injury that precludes walking anyway you don't need to know whether it would be feasible to shortcut across the fields. I still carry a paper map with the route drawn on it as backup though.
A 2nd electronic device is a useless backup though. If your Garmin battery goes flat, then your phone is probably also getting flat too, unless you're going to carry a Garmin, a phone, and a spare phone, at which point you're getting on for a grand's worth of electronics to backup a £7.99 map.
If your Garmin battery goes flat, then your phone is probably also getting flat too
Can you not just turn it off in your bag?
A 2nd electronic device is a useless backup though. If your Garmin battery goes flat, then your phone is probably also getting flat too, unless you’re going to carry a Garmin, a phone, and a spare phone, at which point you’re getting on for a grand’s worth of electronics to backup a £7.99 map.
It's not unheard of for me to head out with 2 Garmins (bike + watch), a phone, and a map.
A 2nd electronic device is a useless backup though. If your Garmin battery goes flat, then your phone is probably also getting flat too, unless you’re going to carry a Garmin, a phone, and a spare phone, at which point you’re getting on for a grand’s worth of electronics to backup a £7.99 map.
Or a £5 powerbank. Mine is also a torch so a handy thing to carry anyway.
The big issue with electronic maps is you’re inevitably looking at only a couple of map squares and a little arrow.
Er, zoom out?
Which is fine until it breaks, (or the person holding it falls off a cliff).
Paper can blow away, usually following wrestling/chasing. Not phones. Paper doesn't make you safer from cliffs.
At which point you have no idea where you are, where the route, or any alternatives are.
What about paper prevents this?
A 2nd electronic device is a useless backup though.
I'm wearing my watch anyway. Charges once a week.
My thoughts on the second device for backup. Its fully charged, turned off and in the bag inside a shock resistant cover.
Garmin Oregon with OS mapping - and a spare set of batteries.
Phone (protected/warm) with route on too.
My level of redundancy does, however, depend on how familiar I am with the area in question. If I'm at all uncertain then I'll have printed off the relevant section of OS Landranger from either the OS website or from Garmin Basecamp.
I’ve always kinda assumed that’s “we’d quite like people to have a map, and to know how to use it, before heading out”
This. I think most MRT would prefer folk to be able to get themselves out of danger. Personally I'm agnostic about what bit of tech one uses. The important bit which I think everyone here has probably identified, but hasn't realised is: knowing the basics of how to navigate and keep yourself safe in upland area is more important than the bit of tech (paper or electronic) that you use to do that.
Garmin Oregon with OS mapping – and a spare set of batteries
snap!
Another luddite here, always take an OS map. I’m worried, perhaps irrationally, that I’ll forget how to navigate with map and compass if I don’t practice regularly. I do have maps on my phone and occasionally use it to confirm my position in poor vis, but try not to rely on it.
To me it’s a bit like driving somewhere unfamiliar. If I rely on the Satnav I sometimes drive with my mind in neutral and get to my destination without a clue of which roads I’ve used and which towns and villages I’ve passed. If I look at a paper road atlas I have a much better overview of the route, points of interest and alternative routes and am much more likely to remember the route for future reference.
Not a perfect analogy granted, but I just feel I relate more to the ground I’m walking on if I study a paper map.
I think this gets to the core of the argument. People have their preferred way of doing things and tie their enjoyment/enthusiasm to that method, thinking that the method enables that enjoyment.
You forget your satnav'ed car journey not because of the device, but because you had no say in the route - nothing registers as familiar on your way through. Same as if you had an overbearing spouse who'd planned the route on their paper map without your input, barking directions at you from the passenger seat.
If you'd planned your route from Redditch to Ambleside on Basecamp, with attention paid to taking in interesting roads, techy climbs, good views, cafe stops, you'd be engaged the whole way, because you know where you're headed. You'd have a good chance of knowing if your satnav had had a moment and decided to re route you somewhere.
Which is how most people use their GPS devices out in the hills. You don't just plug in "10 mile walk, avoid motorways", put your boots on and wait to see if it tells you to turn left or right at the end of the road.
You've planned your route on the (electronic) maps at home, you know where you're going, what you're looking at, if you see something intriguing you'll find out what it is. Having a map on a device isn't going to suddenly kill your sense of wonder and curiosity about your environment and turn you into a trudging automaton, staring at its feet, wakened only by off-course alarms.
And you still have to be able to read a map. If things aren't as you expected because e.g. that plantation has been felled (years ago, by the looks of things) without the map being updated and the path is nowhere to be seen, you still need to figure out the best way down, figure out where the crags are, get over the brook with the waterfall, (is that triangle on the map that fenced off area down there?). Having a pointer on an electronic map isn't actually that useful in that sort of situation, you need to find the safe way down, matching what you can see on the map with what's in front of you. It's map reading and route planning whatever the format.
You forget your satnav’ed car journey not because of the device, but because you had no say in the route – nothing registers as familiar on your way through. Same as if you had an overbearing spouse who’d planned the route on their paper map without your input, barking directions at you from the passenger seat.
If you’d planned your route from Redditch to Ambleside on Basecamp, with attention paid to taking in interesting roads, techy climbs, good views, cafe stops, you’d be engaged the whole way, because you know where you’re headed. You’d have a good chance of knowing if your satnav had had a moment and decided to re route you somewhere.
On a related matter, this is one of the things that bothers me most about folk asking for GPS tracks of bike routes. Loading up a track and following it blindly doesn't allow for the same level or preparation and expectancy as studying the route beforehand, or actually making your own route between various "waypoints/POIs". Doing that lets you see if there's a ford, a possibly dodgy bit of track, a potential shortcut or a detour to somewhere cool.
On a related matter, this is one of the things that bothers me most about folk asking for GPS tracks of bike routes. Loading up a track and following it blindly doesn’t allow for the same level or preparation and expectancy as studying the route beforehand, or actually making your own route between various “waypoints/POIs”. Doing that lets you see if there’s a ford, a possibly dodgy bit of track, a potential shortcut or a detour to somewhere cool.
Exactly what I was thinking as I was typing: "You don’t just plug in “10 mile walk, avoid motorways”, put your boots on and wait to see if it tells you to turn left or right at the end of the road." - Well, some people do!
Well, some people do!
Twice I have been out with folk with GPS who have blindly followed it the wrong way. I had looked at maps before hand and knew they wanted to go the wrong way ( but didn't have the map out) but great god GPS must be right. sure enough after 100m the GPS updates again and corrects the route. NO biggie either time.
Can you not just turn it off in your bag?
You could but if it's very cold it may not start up when you need it. Electronics are not usually a problem at low level but up high in cold and wet conditions they are less than 100% reliable.
Er, zoom out?
At 1:50k one can determine ground features in poor conditions if you zoom out beyond this you lose that ability.
I know my Garmin Oregon worked without fault for 5 days in the arctic at -20C and below. A set of Energizer batteries lasts days. The paper map I had was mushed in the bottom of a bag. Getting a map out to check can be a faff whereas whipping a GPS/phone out your pocket whilst on the move takes seconds. The OS app on my phone can scale hugely and I just press an icon to find my position - the GPS in my phone works without cellular coverage.
At 1:50k one can determine ground features in poor conditions if you zoom out beyond this you lose that ability
I'm looking at 6.5 x 9.5 km on my phone now. To see further I might have to scroll but hey... When in a navigation, as opposed to route planning, situation do you need to zoom out further? And actually these days I do route plan on the phone too, though helps if you've already a feel for the territory, for which I do prefer my map on paper (the same os map, obv).
My Oregon has both Ordnance Survey and a couple of OSM maps loaded. I'll switch between them occasionally as the latter often has more up-to-date and complete mapping, especially as regards paths and tracks.
The paper map I had was mushed in the bottom of a bag.
To be honest that's more about you than the map,
Paper map and compass out on the hill.
Only really preferable if there are other people there to see you doing it.
Had a similar experience out in the middle of the Irish sea, becalmed on a boat which was owned and sailed by RN commander. (100+ yr old square rigged ketch cutter)
We're in the middle of a fishing fleet and Tony(the owner) gets out a sextant. I ask why as A-its the Irish sea, and B- we have sat nav. Tony gestures towards the big million ££ trawlers saying they all have a great deal of electronic gear, showing their positions here,there and everywhere, so he was doing it in a show off sort of way 😆
Ignoring the ad hominem attacks by those that have nothing to say...
Do recidivists who insist that electronic aids are fallible refuse to get on aircraft unless the pilot has pinned a paper copy with calculations of his flight plan on the plane door?
Ignoring the ad hominem attacks by those that have nothing to say…
recidivists
🤔
Seems like a good point to give this another airing:
Do recidivists who insist that electronic aids are fallible
That's not opinion but practical experience over many years by many different groups of users.
Recidivists? ad hominem? Oh the ironing! 😉
Not hiking but paddling. In open canoe I carry laminated A4, in sea kayak printed on waterproof paper so the I can fold it. Usually I'm more interested in the next bit than where I am, and a quick glance without having to scroll a screen is enough. My GPS is running and accessible but not in sight, as backup and track record.
Always take a map when out and about in our local mountains and always have a route planned, plus options if I want to cut things short. Also take a phone and GPS but don’t solely rely on them.
Our local mountain rescue pull lost people out every week, they invariably have a phone on them to ring for help but still don’t know where the hell they are. Even if you do it’s easy to take a straight line off a cliff in poor visibility if your device thinks it’s the quickest route back to your car.
I will carry a paper map and a compass almost always, partly because I started hillwalking before GPS was available and it is an ingrained habit but mostly because I like to have one to look at at food stops etc. The times I don’t have any mapping are usually local walks or short low level walks I have done numbers of times before. I do have a gps with 1:25k loaded for most of the areas that I walk and 1:50k for the whole UK.
I still tend to route plan on paper maps, again habit I guess.
This thread reminds me of when Mrs dB and I were discussing our first trip to keilder over the phone, she was on her laptop and I grabbed one of my dads maps except it was old enough not to have Keilder Lake on it 😬 which lead to a fair amount of confusion.
Still prefer a paper map btw.
Our local mountain rescue pull lost people out every week, they invariably have a phone on them to ring for help but still don’t know where the hell they are. Even if you do it’s easy to take a straight line off a cliff in poor visibility if your device thinks it’s the quickest route back to your car.
This is a competence thing rather than a device thing though.
This is a competence thing rather than a device thing though.
Yep. If they had a paper map they'd still be lost. At least with a phone the mrt can probably get a location for them
This is a competence thing rather than a device thing though.
Exactly. Seems that's really the main gripe on this thread. There's the reliability point which is answered by having backup and countered by maps not being indestructible either, and then there's this - "incompetent people use them and get lost"
I'm pretty sure incompetent people have been getting lost just fine for thousands of years before GPS units came along. With paper maps and without them.
A competent map reader and navigator does not become incompetent by picking up a GPS unit
An incompetent GPS user does not become a competent navigator by having a map.
and maybe, just maybe, a good navigator might not like GPS units because they're not a competent GPS user...
I'm increasingly using digital maps. I take a phone and my 'map phone' so that I don't run battery down in case I need it in emergency.
I do skip paper maps in summer on home turf/places I kind of know.
I do have concerns about digital maps having greater potential to fail when they are most needed - but I'm also someone who has watched two maps blow away out of hands on Cairngorm in near white out - nothing is infallible. You just have to be aware of strengths and weaknesses of what tools you use.
But the majority of time I have a paper map. I've a good few proper OS maps and print off from OS single A4 sheets. All in stylish map case 😁
All in stylish map case
Ever had a 100mph gust grab at your map case and pull you off a cliff??!?!? Careful now.
Maps are great in all shapes and forms. I’ll nearly always carry a paper copy when somewhere I don’t know, with an A4 print out for quick ref. But will usually have some kind of GPS device too.
Are there some actual real statistics on how much of a problem this is from the various mountain rescue teams around the UK (and in other countries) ?
If they are reporting having to go out and rescue people who got lost after their phone went dead, then I'm going to start bringing a paper map.
If on the other hand they're not, then I will carry on taking just a phone and GPS.
Are there some actual real statistics on how much of a problem this is from the various mountain rescue teams around the UK (and in other countries) ?
This seems like a preparedness thing, rather than a stats thing.
If you've taken equal precautions, I reckon the chances of needing mountain rescue won't be far different. The problem with stats is that one group is likely to be less prepared - that's not a fault of the technology.
