So in the article linked to by @andy5390 we have a man with a vested interest in selling more vaccines saying we'll need a 4th jab sooner rather than later and the WHO saying the case for even the first booster has not yet been made.
Hmm. Who to believe...
WHO saying the case for even the first booster has not yet been made.
Say what?
Both our girls managed to get on and book online for the booster. Plenty of spaces local from Thursday
@tpbiker - I quote directly from the article
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The WHO has endorsed third vaccines or booster shots for those who are immunocompromised or received an inactivated COVID-19 vaccine. But WHO experts have said there is not enough data on the Omicron variant to demonstrate that boosters are necessary.
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So in the article linked to by @andy5390 we have a man with a vested interest in selling more vaccines saying we’ll need a 4th jab sooner rather than later and the WHO saying the case for even the first booster has not yet been made.
Was it the WHO who said that? Or Karen on Facebook?
Could you provide us with a link to whichever one of them it was?
And damn those pesky pharmaceutical companies and their extensive medical trials and research. Turns out we do need medicines and stuff after all. Who knew?
@binners - it is a direct quote from the article linked to above by Andy. Just read it. It is unambiguous
But WHO experts have said there is not enough data on the Omicron variant to demonstrate that boosters are necessary.
And you know where that data is going to come from, don't you? UKHSA analysis of the current omicron wave cases based on vaccination status. Whilst it is a bit chicken and egg, the underlying Biology of infectious diseases has not changed. Higher antibody titers provide more protection. How much is necessary for protection from omicron infection, serious disease, death, those are harder questions. They are known now for Delta, but there is a shift in potency of about 10x for omicron.
@TiRed - if it such an obvious conclusion for what reason have the WHO not reached the same one? As always with me, a genuine question as it would seem there are very different scientific opinions here
The who aren’t stating a booster isn’t required, they are saying the data isn’t yet available. Want a 50 quid bet on which way they fall when the evidence does become available?
I’d rather we act now than wait for the inevitable shitstorm to hit us, then realise what pretty much all preliminary data is telling us so far on boosters
Their statement is still consistent with the desire to increase antibody titers in the population. Numerous studies have related titers to protection levels (vaccine and monoclonal antibodies) and shown that declining levels leads to lower (but not zero) protection in populations. Hence it is logical to boost levels to restore protection. The decline in potency from delta to omicron is equivalent to looking at Delta 8-10 months after vaccine roll-out, and that only lends extra weight to the argument.
The epidemic is growing so fast in the UK that conducting a trial is probably not optimal, but a retrospective analysis by UKHSA, Israel and SAfrica and can be used to update policy - should we see the best outcome, since not everyone will get a booster as omicron takes hold.
Well someone made a case for the booster. I had mine before Omicron was ever mentioned.
Their statement is still consistent with the desire to increase antibody titers in the population.
How is it? As boosters are the only way to achieve this and they are effectively saying hold fire on them then that does not seem consistent with the desire to increase antibodies at all.
The who aren’t stating a booster isn’t required,
I never said otherwise. Just that the WHO have not endorsed it yet and that seemed at odds with the statement made by someone whose job it is to sell medicines saying the 4th shot will be needed sooner rather than later.
The WHO position is, last time I checked, to withhold approving boosters as that would take shots away from countries yet to reach good levels of vaccination.
A World Health Organization advisory group has decided against endorsing a broad-based global rollout of coronavirus vaccine booster shots. The experts reiterated the wide disparity in access to vaccines between rich and poor countries and continued to recommend that first vaccine doses remain the priority.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/12/10/covid-omicron-variant-live-updates/
Which frankly, is a fair point.
@piemonster - and they also explicitly state the data is not there on Omicron yet to change that view:
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But WHO experts have said there is not enough data on the Omicron variant to demonstrate that boosters are necessary.
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Yes, of course that may change but what I stated in my posts which were (unsurprisingly) questioned in the usual nasty manner by some was entirely correct.
This is a really interesting article on the possible origin of Omicron also and highlights why global health disparity and inequality needs fighting urgently:
No point waiting for data to know whether its needed as by then it's too late for the winter peak. Its clearly a gamble it will have a worthwhile effect but it is a gamble I'd take too.
This is a really interesting article on the possible origin of Omicron also and highlights why global health disparity and inequality needs fighting urgently:
Yep, vaccine inequality is a shit show. But...
Boris with wavering popularity
Upcoming French elections
US mid terms not that far away
Inequality probably not going anywhere soon. Although I'm not sure how much of a difference resolving the logistics issues the likes of the Serum Institute are experiencing would go to allay this.
I never said otherwise. Just that the WHO have not endorsed it yet and that seemed at odds with the statement made by someone whose job it is to sell medicines saying the 4th shot will be needed sooner rather than later.
Do you honestly think the guy that sells the vaccine is spinning that line to sell extra product? He’s not a used car salesman ffs! He’ll be able to sell more vaccine than he is able to produce for years. He’s seen the preliminary data I assume, and is calling it as he sees it. As have loads of others such as our own resident expert.
The who will I assume reach the same conclusion in time
WHO policy is on the global view - give those with no jabs a primary course before boosting vaccinated populations.
Globally they are right, but if you are a national government facing a new wave and a creaking NHS………
From our POV, even if there were very few Omicron hospitalisation, losing a huge number of staff to +ve tests and isolation would shut hospitals which are already full.
Do you honestly think the guy that sells the vaccine is spinning that line to sell extra product?
Yes.
DannyB - yesterday you were quite aggressive in your stance that your were personally against having a booster dose but not an anti-vaxxer. Fair enough.
today you seem to be heading down the anti-Vaxxer path.
@binners - it may surprise you but there are people out there who are questioning of certain aspects of say, a pandemic but are not conspiracy theorist nut jobs at all.
I wear a mask, I support lockdown measures, I 100% believe the earth to be ovoid, the moon landings definitely happened etc. But is it really a stretch to suspect that pharmaceutical companies are not going to cash in on things a bit?
Indeed, if they were not looking to cash in then for what reason are they not selling the vaccine at cost (with the exception of OxAZ). Indeed Pfizer are reported to have increased their prices as demand has grown which is a straight capitalist supply/demand move. If they are not looking at maximising profits for what reason have they done this?
Further, why have they insisted that the pricing contract with the UK govt remains confidential? Just publish it so we can all see what's what.
DannyB – yesterday you were quite aggressive in your stance that your were personally against having a booster dose but not an anti-vaxxer. Fair enough.
today you seem to be heading down the anti-Vaxxer path
How so? By questioning the motives of the CEO of a pharma co with a vested interest in making money out of the pandemic? A CEO of a company who has indeed raised their prices per Covid dose as it is suddenly in more demand I might add. There was no need to increase the price other than pure commercial gain.
I am rabidly pro-vax in most circumstances. As stated before I paid a fair whack to have the boy vaxxed against meningitis and pay for my flu jab because, whilst I feel I should qualify for it for free, I do not quite tick the right box. The boy has had all his childhood vax and if say he needed a tetanus shot, he would get it.
And, if the long term data shows that the Pfizer and Moderna vaxes are completely safe in regularly repeated doses I would happily get them at that point.
I completely agree, big pharma invented Covid-19 just to make profits.
I completely agree, big pharma invented Covid-19 just to make profits.
No, but they are profiting massively from the situation though. Why not do what OxAZ did (to great cost of their share price I might add) and provide the vax at cost or minimal profits?
Same reason that all the PPE & testing kit manufacturers don’t…..
And meanwhile companies like Amazon are making money too. It's make you think doesn't it!
Same reason that all the PPE & testing kit manufacturers don’t…..
Nail on head. They are commercial companies with profits and shareholders at the heart of everything. The job of the CEO and the board is to maximise profits - no tinfoil hat stuff that really.
So remind me again.
Are you against booster vaccinations for personal medical reasons, or because you think they are a purely a way for pharmaceutical companies to profit?
No, but they are profiting massively from the situation though. Why not do what OxAZ did (to great cost of their share price I might add) and provide the vax at cost or minimal profits?
Because the profit motive is what off sets the risk of investing with no guarantee of return. You almost certainly own shares in all the big pharma companies if you have any kind of pension.
Pharma companies are also spending an absolute bucket ton of cash on developing treatments and vaccines for Covid. There has to be a return on that investment risk otherwise it won't be made. Also don't forget that their supply chain costs are increasing just as much as everybody else's which is going to drive up their prices as well.
Bring on more boosters. Once you get five stamps on your booster loyalty card you get a free Starbucks. Capitalism at its best 🙃
And what on earth are you thinking happens when a big pharma guy rocks up at the Department of Health?
“I’ve got some lovely vaccines for you here, guv. Lovely stuff it is. Safe as houses, trust me. What you want to be doing is getting every member of society jabbed with this. It’s good shit!”
“Fantastic! That sounds great! It was getting to the end of the financial year and we needed something to spank a few billion quid on. They’ll cut our budget for next year otherwise. Hey… we could even make them compulsory
Now… where do I sign?”
Honestly… get a grip
Panic feels like it's setting in amongst the more worried parts of the public again and it's because of the complete lack of leadership we still have in place.
So remind me again.
Are you against booster vaccinations for personal medical reasons,
I am against repeated and regular boosting when the long term effects of such a course of action is unknown and particularly when using a still novel form of vaccine delivery.
And note I am not against big pharma per se, I have been the beneficiary of some very advanced treatments for Ulcerative Colitis for example, treatments that would not have existed otherwise.
But, at the same time I think increasing your prices when demand increases in the middle of a pandemic when the prices you had set prior were already making money is just shear profiteering.
It's not like they are not raking it in as it is...
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/02/business/pfizer-earnings/index.html
Panic feels like it’s setting in amongst the more worried parts of the public again and it’s because of the complete lack of leadership we still have in place.
Have you not filled your airing cupboard with toilet roll yet? 😀
The problem is that Boris has to placate his own unhinged backbenchers, a lot of whom are absolute nut-jobs. Listening to the libertarian claptrap they were churning out in Parliament today was absolutely terrifying
100 Tory MPs rebelled in the vote today
Pfizer did not engage in Operation Warp Speed, they conducted all trials themselves, putting their investments at risk for both vaccine and oral developments. That allowed them to set a price. Moderna did participate and their price reflects the government pre-investment (at Government risk of course). Compared with the economic cost to society, their return has been tiny. About half of the U.K.'s furlough costs to August 2021.
Apple made about six times as much revenue from iPhones in 2020.
If the counter to this is that not everyone can have the vaccine and therefore we need to do everything we can to nudge people to have it, then what is the point of vaccine passports (which hae just been introduced in this country for large venues), for surely they are overtly punative to those who cannot have the vaccine (through no fault of their own)?
Everything so far has indicated that the genuinely medically exempt will also be treated as vaccinated
If the counter to this is that not everyone can have the vaccine and therefore we need to do everything we can to nudge people to have it, then what is the point of vaccine passports (which hae just been introduced in this country for large venues), for surely they are overtly punative to those who cannot have the vaccine (through no fault of their own)?
You missed the bit about being able to show a -ve LFT so no issues for those who cannot or choose not to have the vaccine.
While i agree that pharma companies will look to recoup costs, pfizer are a bunch of money grubbing arseholes and always have been
If one chooses not to assist the community by getting vaccinated then one chooses not to participate in that group. One gets to stay home and order in food online.
We pulled our Christmas meal in part because 2 out of 3 staff are not vaccinated! We would have been the only group in the premises too.
Cool. Maybe we could get the others to wear a yellow star.
I find your comparisons with the Holocaust offensive. Anti-semitic even. Needing a piece of paper in your pocket to do some non-essential things is not comparable with 6 million murders. Your posts amount to Holocaust apology. Germany has moved on but not forgotten. Perhaps you should remember but not make stupid comparisons.
And a question. Why choose Jude as your pseudonym as it's highly unlikely to be your real name? An anti-religious Thomas Hardy novel apparently.
New member too
I find your comparisons with the Holocaust offensive. Anti-semitic even.
You're free to find it offensive - that's not my problem and I cannot help hwo you feel. But I can assure you it is not remotely anti-semitic and anyone with half a brain can figure that out by reading what I wrote as 'irony' (then you will see I am drawing that comparisson in order to deliberately throw the trend towards social coercion into very sharp relief).
For the record, I have always been staunchly pro-Israel and deeply against anti-semitism. You'll just have to take my word for it since you don't know me.
Jude the Obscure is a novel by Thomas Hardy and one of my favourites. Jude was the patron saint of lost causes. Thomas Hardy was also being ironic, as indeed am I.
New member too
Yes indeed; is that OK or do I have to wait and serve a probationary period before I am elligible to express an opinion?
