JonM - the GP-led clinics (GP surgeries are businesses) set up the same way as pharmacies also manage to recruit and pay staff.
Whichever way you look at it, if a business model can't afford to pay its staff its pretty flawed. Taking ANY profit whilst expecting people to work for free is fundamentally wrong IMHO.
However in respect of multiple and very regular doses of mRNA vaccines being completely untested in the mid to long-term. That is simply a matter of fact.
Question - I'd assumed that it was unlikely there was going to be side effects that only manifested after (say) 72 months or something. More likely the frequency would follow a bell curve, with some getting them earlier and others later - therefore vaccinating a shit ton of people would probably find both the short term and long term side effects. With a normal vaccine i'm guessing the trials have to last for years as your test subject numbers are much less.
Anyone with expertise care to comment?
Your “fear” of possible side effects trumps the compassion for family, friends and strangers.
Absolutely it does. 100%. My health comes before anyone else's I am afraid.
And yes, I may be particularly risk adverse here but having suffered from a life threatening autoimmune illness that has meant life changing surgery (I have had to tape a bag to my stomach to shit in since the age of 38 and will have to for life) I am not taking even a phantasm of a chance.
If the long-term data supports their use or more traditional non-mRNA vaccines become available I will happily have them though...
Why would you trust a new "traditional non-mRNA" vaccine above the current mRNA vaccines, even once there are millions of use cases of the mRNA vaccines? What is it about the mRNA vaccines that make them something to be feared more than other vaccines? Genuinely interested. Sorry if it sounds like I'm challenging rather than trying to understand or help alleviate your concerns. Just trying to understand.
Why would you trust a new “traditional non-mRNA” vaccine above the current mRNA vaccines, even once there are millions of use cases of the mRNA vaccines?
Because the possible long-term side effects of mRNA vaccines are at this stage unknown as the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are the first mRNA ones to be released. And their long term use is completely unknown.
Yes there have been millions of doses given but no one has had one for longer than 12 months so the data is simply not there. The data for repeated and regular doses is even more scant...
And it's fine - I like considered, respectful debate. It is what is sadly lacking in all areas of life these days.
the GP-led clinics (GP surgeries are businesses) set up the same way as pharmacies
No they're not. GP contracting is vastly different to pharmacy contracting in terms of how services delivered and the charging mechanism through which they are paid.
Through the contracting mechanisms all the administration costs, rents, insurances etc are chargeable within the head contract held with the NHS and the charge for each vaccine only needs to cover the cost of the actual administration/delivery of that vaccine.
Unfortunately I know way more than I ever want to know about GP contracts as my dad was very senior in primary care commissioning until he recently retired and I have to listen to him and his friends whittering on about this endlessly 🙂
There's ten years of data of people receiving mRNA vaccines in trials though.
And, by the time "traditional" vaccines are available to you, there will be 2 years of data on people receiving the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine.
Why would you pick a "new" vaccine based on "traditional" technology, rather than a well proven mRNA one?
There’s ten years of data of people receiving mRNA vaccines though.
Where - Moderna and Pfizer are the first ones. There have been trials but they have all failed due to issues with mRNA delivery
And in particular where is the long-term test data on repeated and very regular mRNA doses? That is the bit that concerns me most. We keep pumping it in every 3-6 months - what, indefinitely? How do we know that is safe without trialling it?
Can someone explain:
I get on a bus with people sat about a meter away windows open and I’m there for 20 minutes, must wear a mask, sanitize hands and be afraid.. I then get of said bus and walk into a pub packed full of people with limited ventilation and strangers hugging, kissing and shouting close at each other for hours on end, this is fine, no mask required and no reason to be afraid
Because the possible long-term side effects of mRNA vaccines are at this stage unknown as the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are the first mRNA ones to be released. And their long term use is completely unknown.
As Kelvin says, and the other thing to note with regard to this particular vaccine, is that you get a indication of the likely long-term safety profile within a shorter timeframe, because if you give millions of doses over a year, you'd expect to see any long term adverse effect to begin to emerge in a smaller number of susceptible patients far more quickly.
If something is going to happen to a significant number of people after five years, you would see it happening to a smaller number of patients in the first year. There is no sign of this happening.
How do we know that is safe without trialling it?
There are trails ahead of all/any additional boosters being offered to the public. We have people contributing to this thread that have been part of those trails. Where to you get this "without trialling it" idea from?
Absolutely it does. 100%. My health comes before anyone else’s I am afraid.
I ask you this: If you or any of your family get covid, come back here and tell us your experience.
Will you do that, please?
Vaxxers is well worth a read Danny. It's written by Sarah Gilbert and Catherine Green who came up with the AstraZeneca vaccine and will answer a lot of the concerns you have. They've also done a few podcasts which are well worth searching out.
but is this actually a brand-new thing, or does it also happen with other (non-Covid) vaccines?
There is NOTHING new about the yellow card recording system. The website is simply a prospective simpler way of gaining real world usage data on a rapidly. You can report ANY adverse event to any medication you might be taking through the yellow card system (and it was a yellow card for your doctor to fill in). This data is trawled over using some complex Bayesian algorithms to find signals from population level surveillance.
I am duty bound (by SOP) to report any adverse event I am personally made aware of for any medicine made by my employer in a company system within 24 hours of becoming aware of it. We don't have a COVID vaccine yet.
But the point is, you are running scared of potential unkown long-term effects when there is a virus kicking about right now, the effects of which are well known. If we wait until (how long?) any of these potential effects display themselves the vaccines would be irrelevant because we would all have gone down with the virus. You are saying that you would rather catch Covid (which we know produces long term effects in quite a high proportion of people), than take a vaccine because of a fear of long term side effects for which there is no evidence.
Does not compute.
Yellow card scheme is over 50 years old
https://www.rpharms.com/resources/quick-reference-guides/yellow-card-scheme-quick-reference-guide
Background on mRNA and its uses / side-effects / potential long term issues
I ask you this: If you or any of your family get covid, come back here and tell us your experience.
Will you do that, please?
Perhaps you didn't read the bit about my wife and I and my boy all having had it. What would you like to know about the experience?
@kelvin @salad-dodger and @martinhutch - but that is not long term data. Yes for sure you can very quickly see if there are any immediate side effects but things like autoimmune response issues generally take many years to show. They do not present themselves in a handful of months.
No amount of short-term testing or podcasts will help here I am afraid. I would note as well the AZ vax is not mRNA.
And note I have admitted I was mistaken about the yellow card thing. Just hadn't seen it before.
I get on a bus with people sat about a meter away windows open and I’m there for 20 minutes, must wear a mask, sanitize hands and be afraid.. I then get of said bus and walk into a pub packed full of people with limited ventilation and strangers hugging, kissing and shouting close at each other for hours on end, this is fine, no mask required and no reason to be afraid
1) there are people that have to use that bus, to get to work, or get to the doctors etc - everyone apart from the staff in that pub chooses to be there
2) the bus can do its thing, carrying people around, just the same as normal, with windows open and masks being worn - drinking or eating in the pub isn't going to happen with masks worn at all times
It does some very odd that there are currently no measures in pubs though... ventilation, mask wearing when not sat with your group, table service etc. We should be doing those things, but... money... this is a key time of the year for indoors hospitality... any measures will hit confidence and keep people away (is the argument)... I suspect this will all swap around after Christmas, and people will stay away if measures aren't reintroduced (if things are getting bad in hospitals by Jan).
Lots of people have to catch busses to get to places to do the things that keep us all fed and with basic services. Only a few bar staff have to go into a pub, the others choose to go in.
Nobody should be forced to put up with selfish anti-social behaviour, but if people choose to only with other like-minded people then society has chosen to let them in the name of freedom and making Tim Witherspoon rich.
Perhaps you didn’t read the bit about my wife and I and my boy all having had it. What would you like to know about the experience
No. I didn't. Do you want to know about my wife's experience with it?
I get on a bus with people sat about a meter away windows open and I’m there for 20 minutes, must wear a mask, sanitize hands and be afraid.. I then get of said bus and walk into a pub packed full of people with limited ventilation and strangers hugging, kissing and shouting close at each other for hours on end, this is fine, no mask required and no reason to be afraid
Only poor people get on buses so Tory MP's have no concern about any inconvenience, and it's unlikely to have much if any effect on the economy. Tory MP's do go to pubs/restaurants etc and increased restrictions will effect the economy. The current restrictions all have very little direct cost as most businesses who want their staff to work from home would already be doing it.
that is true, but AIUI the mRNA is totally excreted from the body in a fairly short space of time thus leaving nothing to have a long term reaction to... I suppose it's a gamble to some extent, but then surely so is catching Covid, probably many times, over the next few years (at least). How do you know that won't be more risky than the vaccine? You've had Covid already... do you know what are the long-term side effects of that are? Personally I will trust science & take my chances with that rather than Covid which really is an unknown quantity/gamble surely - including possibly future variants?Because the possible long-term side effects of mRNA vaccines are at this stage unknown
My health comes before anyone else’s I am afraid.
That's an interesting one, because that is the definition of selfish. But I can see and to an extent sympathise.
Do you say the same about anything else? Wealth for example? Do you keep it all for yourself or donate to charity? What about enjoyment - can you do whatever you please in a restaurant, and if others evening out is affected then so what?
I said I can sympathise. In the end health is the most important thing, the other examples are more minor. But the stakes on both sides are higher.
I don't think it's fair to be loud and obnoxious on a night out, but at the end no-one's going to die of it.
Hold whatever view you want about others but quit it with the churlish, abusive name calling.
Plus one to this. It just raises your blood pressure and demeans the point that you and others are making.
I get on a bus with people sat about a meter away windows open and I’m there for 20 minutes, must wear a mask, sanitize hands and be afraid.. I then get of said bus and walk into a pub packed full of people
Lucky you. I get on an Overground train with shut windows and 50% mask wearing. Jesus christ.
How do you know that won’t be more risky than the vaccine? You’ve had Covid already… do you know what are the long-term side effects of that are? Personally I will take my chances with the vaccine!
And there you have it in a nutshell - choice. I, for the reasons I have detailed, am not comfortable at this stage having the booster.
I have nearly died from an autoimmune illness and whilst covid was unpleasant for a few days, it has had no lasting impact (and yes I know it can be far far worse of course) so for me the choice is straightforward.
And a genuine question in return - again as I am genuinely interested. Would you be happy having a booster say every 6 months for the next 10 years? No questions asked when no vaccine has ever been given that frequently for that long?
@BaronVonP7 – given your outright rudeness to me. No, not really.
I have a lot to loose.
What could anybody say to change your mind? There must be something?
Would you be happy having a booster say every 6 months for the next 10 years?
Yes, based on current information. As information changes, etc., etc.
None of us know what advice Danny has had from the medical profession. If he's survived Covid without a vaccine I can understand him not wanting to risk the vaccine if he has a medical justification not to.
And a genuine question in return – again as I am genuinely interested. Would you be happy having a booster say every 6 months for the next 10 years? No questions asked when no vaccine has ever been given that frequently for that long?
I'm going to say yes, I would. I have a flu booster every 12 month, happy to take the very small risk of it going wrong.
Do you say the same about anything else? Wealth for example? Do you keep it all for yourself or donate to charity? What about enjoyment – can you do whatever you please in a restaurant, and if others evening out is affected then so what?
Interesting points. Again, just to note I have had my two jabs as, whilst I was deeply uncomfortable even doing that I felt it was the right and responsible thing to do and the chances of long-term issues from a double dose are minimal I think.
But, we are no in a position where we are being pushed to having three doses and they have moved the minimum time between doses. What happens (as per my question above) when this becomes four doses, five doses, six doses. A booster every 6 months forever, every three months forever.
Is it unreasonable of me to at least question this and raise my concerns and shouldn't I be able to without being labelled a selfish entitled prick?
As for charity I do not have a great deal of disposable income but give a little here and there, particularly to personal causes like those which are often highlighted on here. I also volunteer from time to time; I gave up my school holidays when I was in 6th form to help disabled kids have some time away from their families, I have been a Childline counsellor etc.
And I am generally very considerate in restaurants (the odd drunken night out excepted).
how do you know? Where are the results from long-term testing of Covid sufferers?I have nearly died from an autoimmune illness and whilst covid was unpleasant for a few days, it has had no lasting impact
Yes. Genuinely. Until the science says otherwise.And a genuine question in return – again as I am genuinely interested. Would you be happy having a booster say every 6 months for the next 10 years? No questions asked when no vaccine has ever been given that frequently for that long?
Would you be happy having a booster say every 6 months for the next 10 years? No questions asked when no vaccine has ever been given that frequently for that long?
As opposed say, to catching Covid every 6 months as a combination of new variants and waning natural immunity take their toll?
Would you be happy having a booster say every 6 months for the next 10 years?
Not every six months, no... but for 10 years, perhaps annually, yes.
No questions asked when no vaccine has ever been given that frequently for that long?
Lots of questions! And lots of reading, and listening... but hopefully paying attention to people with genuine knowledge about the development, testing, trials, roll outs and follow ups.
And, of course, there are the flu jabs. There are two people who are immunocompromised in this house, and been having the flu jabs for years. Nether have quite made it to 10 years of jabs yet... but one is on year 7. Plenty of other people have had more than 10 by now, I assume.
What could anybody say to change your mind? There must be something?
There really isn't. I am from a family of medics up to and including a professor of neural anatomy and Dean of a medical school, a Professor of anatomy who was formerly a consultant paediatrician, two GPs a physio, a consultant plastics, a pysch and of course my wife and honestly, we are all of the same or very similar views on all of this.
Actually my GP sister is completely against the mRNA vaccines full stop although I concede she takes things a little far IMO.
And for the record and for the nth time - I am double dipped with the Pfizer vaccine as is Mrs D!
And, of course, there are the flu jabs. Two people who are immunocompromised in this house, and been having the flu jabs for years. Nether have quite made it to 10 years of jabs yet… but one is on year 7.
Flu jabs are not mRNA though. I have my flu jab most years and I would have an annual non-mRNA covid jab.
I still really don't get your fear of mRNA as opposed to other vaccine technology though. And that goes for all your family. Do any of them see it a step forward? What do they think about the possible cancer treatments?
EDIT: I'm wary of mentioning your medically trained family, sorry if that's out of order. Perhaps stick to your own concerns, because then we might be able to help alleviate some of them. As we have with the Yellow Card canard. There is a lot of nonsense out there (and sadly a few real incidents and real concerns) that can all multiply any existing and understandable fear.
Is it unreasonable of me to at least question this and raise my concerns and shouldn’t I be able to without being labelled a selfish entitled prick?
Your "opening gambit", was that you weren't having the booster because of "reasons". This is what wound me up. You did not come asking questions.
Edit: CBA and a derailment 🙂
@kelvin - because it has not been tested in the long-term and it is the mRNA delivery that has the (admittedly small) chance of causing an autoimmune response in the long term.
Your “opening gambit”, was that you weren’t having the booster because of “reasons”. This is what wound me up. You did not come asking questions.
That is because I have no questions. I have done plenty of reading, spoken with people with far greater medical knowledge than most people on here, have been following all developments with interest and have made my decision.
The purpose of my posting in the first place is because I too am sick to death with people being vilified and all put in the anti-vax, flat-earth conspiracy camp with no real knowledge of those people at all.
As I say I am pro-vax. I paid a not inconsiderable sum to have my boy vaxxed against meningitis on top of all the normal childhood ones. I fully support childhood vaccinations as a whole and really do not understand people who choose not to vax (although I do support their choice here).
Equally, as I do myself, I understand why some people are cautious over a vaccine that absolutely has been rushed out, using a new vaccine technology and that we are now being asked to have every 3-6 months.
You want to have it - fill your boots (or arms or wherever the needle goes) however suggesting people who have genuine concerns and other reasons for not just gong with the flow have the right to some respect also.
mRNA is totally excreted from the body in a fairly short space of time
You may be surprised to learn that mRNA is VERY fragile and the body destroys it almost instantly. Why? Well you don't want coding material for pathogens floating around and into cells. That's why the vaccines are encapsulated in lipids and PEF (and adenovirus). they are just so unstable. Interference RNA uses a different technology, but these are mostly taken straight into liver cells to get to work silencing our own mRNA.
I am genuinely interested. Would you be happy having a booster say every 6 months for the next 10 years?
I think we now are starting to see that these vaccines are actually therapeutics for the generation of polyclonal antibodies for protection. Some degree of chronic dosing might be needed, with initial dosing to get to steady-state of, say, three doses once every three months, being not unreasonable. Followed by annual or a mild infection.
You may also be surprised to learn that there are some similar technologies being tested to see if we can become monoclonal antibody factories ourselves for other diseases. This has been tested in HIV in humans already, and neuredegenerative diseases are also being tested using the AAV technology
Overview:
https://translational-medicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12967-019-1804-8
Rats: (humans may be some time away)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8233769/
The future looks exciting and mRNA vaccines are the start.
Never seen it for any other vaccine. Certainly didn’t get one after my flu jab and the boy has never been given one after any of his. This is specifically for the covid vaccines.
Which shows how ill-informed you are:
The yellow card scheme...
"...was founded in 1964 after the thalidomide disaster, and was developed by Bill Inman. It is run by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) and the Commission on Human Medicines. It was extended to hospital pharmacists in 1997, and to community pharmacists in 1999.[2]"
The purpose of my posting in the first place is because I too am sick to death with people being vilified and all put in the anti-vax, flat-earth conspiracy camp with no real knowledge of those people at all.
But then, to back up your own legitimate concerns, you posted some conspiracy nonsense about Yellow Card reporting, that we all saw on FB and the like a year ago and were quickly reassured was nonsense way back then (just read the instructions that come with any medicine you can buy at the supermarket). And this is the worry, trying to reassure people and lead them away from deliberate attempts to misinform them and keep them scared for clicks and attention, can lead to charges of "patronising" and being "rude". Yes, people are getting increasingly angry, exasperated and (unfortunately) rude with people being misled about vaccines (and any and all tools we have to try and deal with this pandemic). That mostly isn't aimed at people like yourself with a medical history that results in additional and valid trepidation, but sadly you get caught up in it when you post any of the conspiracy nonsense cynically aimed at the wider population who have no such need to be extra cautious.
Is it unreasonable of me to at least question this and raise my concerns and shouldn’t I be able to without being labelled a selfish entitled prick?
That ---^^ doesn't go with that---V , if you see what I mean.
That is because I have no questions. I have done plenty of reading, spoken with people with far greater medical knowledge than most people on here, have been following all developments with interest and have made my decision.
You have a large family of healthcare professionals but it seems (to me) that posters have raised legit points refuting or correcting some of your statements regarding vaccines and symptom reporting.
At least review what's been offered rather than "shutting the door"?
But then, to back up your own legitimate concerns, you posted some conspiracy nonsense about Yellow Card reporting, that we all saw on FB and the like a year ago and were quickly reassured were nonsense way back then
Honestly - I had not seen anything about the Yellow Card on Facebook and genuinely thought it odd as it was the first time I had seen such a leaflet. And I have happily admitted I was wrong on this point.
I do not click on links for attention, I do not read conspiracy bollocks etc. I am unfortunate enough to have plenty of conspiracy theorists as relatives, friends of close associates etc and they get no time from me at all.
I am just speaking up for people like me. Normal people, people who are intelligent, articulate, even generally pro-vax but who feel they cannot have a proper conversation about their concerns about the covid vaccines for fear of being shouted down and accused of being an anti-vax conspiracy nut. I basically keep my mouth shut about such things as, has been proven by some of the responses to my posts, plenty of people just do not take any time at all to listen and debate contrary views (although some people have hence why I am still here) but the public as a whole is in a them/us situation quite unnecessarily.
