The Coronavirus Discussion Thread.

Personlly I am quite uneasy with this move to dish out boosters to the entire adult population when the WHO are still protesting against vaccine hoarding.

Give the old and the vulnerable a booster by all means. But as a healthy mid-thirties bloke who only had his second mRNA vaccine 4 months ago, giving me a third vaccine is way down the list of ways to reduce harm when <10% of Africa has had even a single dose.

It's not either/or though. Suspend patents and get local production ramped up. We can vaccinate everyone, and if the decision was made to not vaccinate here, that in itself would not magically vaccinate everyone in the countries where the rollout has been far too slow.

Last week the Biden administration made the surprise announcement that the US would support a proposal to waive patents on covid-19 vaccines in response to the pressing need for more global supply.

Until now the US, like other high income countries such as the UK, Switzerland, Germany, and Japan, had opposed the proposal to suspend intellectual property (IP) rights on covid vaccines that was first put to the World Trade Organization last October by India and South Africa.1 But in a statement issued on 5 May the US trade representative, Katherine Tai, signalled a U-turn.2

“This is a global health crisis, and the extraordinary circumstances of the covid-19 pandemic call for extraordinary measures,” she said. “The administration’s aim is to get as many safe and effective vaccines to as many people as fast as possible.”

source - BMJ

The UK and Germany are blocking this... [ follow the money ] and that is where they are failing in their international responsibility (and also failing their own citizens in my opinion, because we're not vaccinated 'till the world is vaccinated). Our local vaccination campaigns aren't the problem, our governments putting the needs of the pharmaceutical industry ahead of a successful worldwide manufacturing and deployment of vaccines is.

Binners - All these things have an impact on society (an in particular to your point about burden on the NHS). One of the greatest contributing factors of assault is alcohol. Second hand smoke is a known and real issue. Fat folk - fair enough.

The point is - calling people names and castigating them is clearly not going to change minds; in fact, as has been demonstrable through Brexit, it will likely make them dig their heels in more and may convince those on the fence to fall down on the wrong side in defense of those being abused.

Dantsw13, willjones - Down here all the qualified vaccinators (ie. those actually administering the vaccine) are volunteers in that they have come out of retirement voluntarily or volunteered to work extra in the centers. In the vaccine centers, and in particular in pharmacies, they are being paid for their services. Also, the administration involved for pharmacies costs quite a lot in terms of the management of bookings and updating of medical records etc. I know this as my wife is a pharmacist and I personally know at least 15 vaccinators volunteering in both pharmacies and in the main vaccine centers.

Plenty of people would disagree with this

They would be wrong, it affects no one's health other than the aborted cells and the possibly the mother's physical health in some instances & both parent's mental health (neither of these latter two can cause the need for intubation in a normally healthy couple). Straw man still full of straw.

Omicron is supposedly highly contagious yet relatively mild in SA as it has been reported

The data are not fully in on this point yet and anyone claiming it is needs to calm down a bit. So far the effects are mild, so far we have only had one death in UK from this variant. We need to be ahead of the game, not chasing it to take account of the selfish who think their freedoms are inhibited if they are required to vaccinate to protect everyone. Their freedoms will shortly be more inhibited if we decide to confine the un-vaccinated for the good of the rest of us and the proper functioning of the economy.

WITH not OF.

@Kelvin,

I don't disagree that patents and production are the bigger obstacles to more widespread vaccination, however those obstacles don't seem to be going away anytime soon - the Biden announcement you've linked to is from May and, if I'm not mistaken, we're globally in essentially the same position regarding patents. ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/29/nursing-unions-around-world-call-for-un-action-on-covid-vaccine-patents)

In the meantime deployment of vaccines should ideally be prioritised to the old and clinically vulnerable, on a global scale. But clearly that is massively naive viewpoint, especially with our current government.

@kelvin I think it may have been you who commented earlier about pharmacists profiting handsomely from the efforts and goodwill of volunteer vaccinators… good god, hadn’t seen it that way. Is there another angle? I’m struggling to see it.

That was probably me. If Mass Vacc sites can pay their staff, why not the pharmacies? My local pharmacy was using the village hall, doing 500 jabs a day. Being paid £10/ jab (Now £15/£20 on Sundays) that's between £5k & £10k per day, whilst expecting the vaccinators to do it for free.

One of my mates works in a pharmacy (I did somer shifts there at the start for SJA too) and the pharmacist told her they weren't being paid either. It turns out that was disingenuous - they weren't paying themselves for the shift, but "Their" business was getting £5k per day.

Edit: JohnM - The pharmacies in my area certainly aren't paying the vaccinators. For me, a volunteer is someone working for free, not just someone doing it voluntarily.

Retired staff doing it I the mass vaccination sites are being paid. Retired staff in my local pharmacies get nothing.

why not the pharmacies?

I've been to our local pharmacy about 5 times in the last fortnight.

Every time they have queues out the door, and deeply apologetic staff for prescriptions not prepared. They are struggling with ill staff and usual winter pressure.

I will not be getting my booster. I am double dipped however I am not comfortable in having ongoing and regular shots of a vaccine technology for which there has been no long term testing. We were told 2 shots was it, now it's two plus a booster and undoubtedly there will be more 'required'. Sorry no, not until the long-term data is available on potential side effects such as autoimmune responses from quantities of mRNA being injected every few months.

And if the vaccines come in for 5-12 YO's the boy is not having either for the same reason. And note we paid for the meningitis vaccine for him as he just missed out on getting it for free and he has had all the normal childhood ones. However, having suffered from a chronic autoimmune illness myself there is no way I am risking his long-term health, even if that risk is small. It is also completely unknown.

Call me every name under the sun, I really do not care. If people want to accuse me of being selfish for not blindly following government advice and for caring about potential long-term consequences that's fine by me.

I am generally pro-vax but, whilst I understand the reasons this one was rushed out, it has not been tested to the extent a normal vaccine would be. There is a reason they usually take years to develop and that is because to get a handle on any mid to long-term side effects takes time. And for that reason I am out now I have had my two.

My local mass vaccination sites both closed, because pharmacies opened centres near them taking away their business. They are choosing to do it as a business opportunity.

It may well be different elsewhere, but I would be surprised.

Im qualified to volunteer vaccinate with SJA at multiple sites, and employed as a Bank Staff vaccinator with the NHS too. My volunteer/paid shifts ratio are probably about 10:1

I believe that many of those not taking the vaccine don't trust the Government/pharmaceutical companies. This is where it all starts with them.
For whatever reason. Can anyone think of any reasons or examples why we shouldn't trust them?

Many of the younger generation simply don't believe they need it.

And before any of the high and mighty holier than thou brigade start frothing at the mouth and wetting their Y fronts these are not my own views, just what I'm seeing and reading. I'm vaccinated.

Ooo... we haven't had a "pant wetter" jibe for a while.

"We've 'ad ENOUGH of them scientists - I'm in charge now. I know wot's wot."

"Thanks dad!"

The point is – calling people names and castigating them is clearly not going to change minds

I don't think that theres much you can do to change the minds of anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers. They're flat-earthers. Using logic and rationality simply doesn't work with them. They're either as thick as mince to in the case of the libertarian Tory's and Piers Corbyn so intransigent in their frankly ludicrous beliefs that trying to reason with them is utterly and completely pointless. Actually, they're usually both!

So given that simple truism, for the protection of the majority of society, who aren't tinfoil-helmetted conspiracy theorists or intransigent hard right nutjobs, its time for plan B, because they've been indulged for long enough

From now on it should be vaccine passports, and proof of vaccination. Stop pussy-footing around and humouring these clowns. They've done enough damage already

If you don't want a vaccine then thats absolutely fine. Thats your right. But rights come with responsibilities, despite what these idiots say. So theres a pay off. And the price you pay is that you don't get to wander around doing whatever the **** you like and being a walking super-spreader

And if you want to defend them further may I suggest you pop on to the places they congregate on social media and see exactly the kind of idiocy it is that you're defending...

They're comparing having to wear a piece of cloth on your face to 'Nazi Germany' FFS!

And you think we should be listening to anything these muppets have got to say. They're utter morons and should be treated as such

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1470329586944720896?s=20

I don’t think that theres much you can do to change the minds of anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers. They’re flat-earthers. Using logic and rationality simply doesn’t work with them. They’re either as thick as mince to in the case of the libertarian Tory’s and Piers Corbyn so intransigent in their frankly ludicrous beliefs that trying to reason with them is utterly and completely pointless

What about pro-vaxxers who have deep reservations about the untested nature of this particular vaccine?

Define 'untested'?

Which vaccine is untested?

I will not be getting my booster. I am double dipped however I am not comfortable in having ongoing and regular shots of a vaccine technology for which there has been no long term testing. We were told 2 shots was it, now it’s two plus a booster and undoubtedly there will be more ‘required’. Sorry no, not until the long-term data is available on potential side effects such as autoimmune responses from quantities of mRNA being injected every few months.

And if the vaccines come in for 5-12 YO’s the boy is not having either for the same reason. And note we paid for the meningitis vaccine for him as he just missed out on getting it for free and he has had all the normal childhood ones. However, having suffered from a chronic autoimmune illness myself there is no way I am risking his long-term health, even if that risk is small. It is also completely unknown.

As you are a long standing contributor to this forum, this is a genuine question and not just trying to start an argument:

You obviously felt differently last spring and summer when you voluntarily got your first two jabs. What has changed since then?

From now on it should be vaccine passports, and proof of vaccination. Stop pussy-footing around and indulging these clowns. They’ve done enough damage already

Labour should be voting against the additional measures as they are a complete waste of time. Including LFT results rather than just vaccination records (or a medical reason for not having it) is pointless as anyone who chooses not to be vaccinated isn't like to care about entering false details/not bothering to even do a LFT.

I don't want additional restrictions but lets not pretend that effective measures are disruptive and expensive.

Every time they have queues out the door, and deeply apologetic staff for prescriptions not prepared. They are struggling with ill staff and usual winter pressure.

If it is a Lloyds pharmacy it may also be because they rolled out a new software system to a lot of the pharmacies and massively ****ed it up. It should be getting better now....

Dantsw13 - Yes, the pharmacies are making some profit but the costs of doing the vaccines are not insignificant. Once you factor in rental of premises, administration costs, additional insurances, staff training (which even the non paid volunteers are getting and for private companies is not free of charge) etc. then the £10-15 per customer does not leave huge profits as you seem to be suggesting. If there wasn't profit and companies didn't step in then the NHS would have to cover all the vaccinations which isn't viable.

However, having suffered from a chronic autoimmune illness myself there is no way I am risking his long-term health, even if that risk is small. It is also completely unknown.

Call me every name under the sun, I really do not care.

You crack on.

But if chronic long-term conditions are a concern, you should probably note that there are 426,000 people in the UK who have reported COVID symptoms lasting more than 12 months.

I was 40, fit and healthy when I caught a mild dose last April. I only had a couple of days of fever. I've now had 20 months of fatigue and brain fog, and my GP thinks it has also kicked off a permanent, progressive rheumatological condition which, if confirmed after scans, means I will almost certainly never return to my previous levels of health.

So assess the risks as you see fit, but don't forget that there are more outcomes to COVID than full recovery/death.

Define ‘untested’?

As per my slightly earlier post; there have not been any mRNA vaccines before and the long-term effects of mRNA being injected into the body is unknown. They have been trying to develop them for years but have always failed and all of a sudden, given the urgency of the situation, two get approval very very quickly.

But, the technology has no long term data. There is for example, the possibility of mRNA triggering autoimmune conditions in people given how it interacts with cells. This chance increases if we just keep pumping it in.

And, even without the technology being new, no covid vaccine (for understandable reasons but it remains a matter of fact) went through the full and robust testing vaccines normally go through. For example, the leaflet you were given (well at least that I and everyone at the vax centre I went to) asking you to go online to fill in a survey if you suffered side effects. That is an entirely new concept. No vaccine has ever been released where there is mass collection of post jab side effects. And this was required because the test data isn't there.

The albeit low numbers of deaths and other more serious side effects that have become apparent. Again, these would normally be known before a vaccine is released for general use and yet we are learning on the hoof here.

With the best will in the world, all covid vaccines are still basically in the test phase and whilst I was happy to 'do my bit' and have the first two, for me it ends there.

Which vaccine is untested?

I believe omicron 1.0, a potential live attenuated virus# "vaccine", is in uncontrolled trials at the moment. It has not undergone preclinical testing. 😉

It is true that the mRNA technology is new to vaccines, but it is not a new technology to humans. Indeed manipulation of human RNA (by silencing) has been licensed as a therapeutic for multiple diseases. The addition of exogenous messenger materials to make a protein that the human immune system then responds to is the same process as an infection by the virus - you're just getting less of the information so you can't make a whole virion (just the spike). The new part is really the delivery of the nanoparticle that encapsulates the delicate messenger RNA. That involves some fat and a little polyethylene glycol coating. Some people have shown hypersensitivity to the PEG. I had a rash from the Moderna booster I received. I had no reaction to the adenovirus packaging from the AZ vaccine first and second time.

#Of note, the real live attenuated vaccines have failed to deliver impressive efficacy. Would you have preferred an established technology that failed, or a new one that has hugely over-delivered?

As you are a long standing contributor to this forum, this is a genuine question and not just trying to start an argument:

You obviously felt differently last spring and summer when you voluntarily got your first two jabs. What has changed since then?

To be honest I was deeply uncomfortable about having the first two however in the end decided that it was the correct thing to do. Not for my own benefit; I had already had covid and whilst it was unpleasant, I was not seriously ill and have no long term effects. So it genuinely was a decision based on 'the greater good'.

However, for the reasons detailed in my OP I am absolutely not comfortable about having a third and possibly a fourth fifth and sixth etc until the long term data is available.

#Of note, the real live attenuated vaccines have failed to deliver impressive efficacy. Would you have preferred an established technology that failed, or a new one that has hugely over-delivered?

Old school until more test data is available for sure...

If only millions of people had received these vaccines, we might have had a big enough dataset of responses and adverse effects that we could look out for and mitigate against then. We know far more now than you did when you received your first doses. To have an increased fear of the vaccines now then you did back then seems a bit odd.

For example, the leaflet you were given (well at least that I and everyone at the vax centre I went to) asking you to go online to fill in a survey if you suffered side effects. That is an entirely new concept. No vaccine has ever been released where there is mass collection of post jab side effects. And this was required because the test data isn’t there.

The CDC and FDA established The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System in 1990. The goal of VAERS, according to the CDC, is “to detect possible signals of adverse events associated with vaccines.” (A signal in this case is evidence of a possible adverse event that emerges in the data collected.) About 30,000 events are reported each year to VAERS. Between 10% and 15% of these reports describe serious medical events that result in hospitalization, life-threatening illness, disability, or death.

Were the Covid vaccines "rushed" anyway (in the sense of corners cut) or was the process just so rapid due to the massive amount of funding & resources thrown at them?

If only millions of people had received these vaccines, we might have a big enough dataset of responses and adverse effects that we could look out for and mitigate against then.

But the mid to long-term effects will only be known in the err... mid to long-term. And, if there are say autoimmune issues that have not been picked up through thorough and proper testing it is now too late for millions of people to avoid that possibility

And if you want to defend them further may I suggest you pop on to the places they congregate on social media and see exactly the kind of idiocy it is that you’re defending…

I am not defending anyone and do not agree with not getting vaccinated. What I am sick of is the constant stream of abuse against one subset of society which at times makes this forum, and in particular this thread, a rather unpleasant place to be.

Hold whatever view you want about others but quit it with the churlish, abusive name calling.

And before you tar me with the anti-vax brush any further I am vaccinated, have the booster and have done probably well before most on this thread due to volunteering to be a guinea pig for it.

Guys, please stop with the vitriol. Thanks.

this all sounds like bollocks to me tbh. Is this just stuff you’ve read on FB, do you have sources that you can cite?

Yes, I was given the leaflet and it specifically asked me to log on and report any side effects however minor. It may still be in my car. If it is I will scan it and post it.

EDIT @zilog6128 - here is the MHRA's reporting website... https://coronavirus-yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/

Old school until more test data is available for sure…

Those vaccines are coming, including just spike protein. Novavax is one, but had challenging manufacture. Sanofi had other challenges. The attenuated intranasal flu vaccine has been a revelation, one for SARS-COV-2 might also come as well. As will oral therapeutics for infection and possible prophylaxis.

Of note however, France did not approve molnupiravir, despite an earlier positive emergency use opinion from the EMA and approval from the MHRA in the UK.

Yes, I was given the leaflet and it specifically asked me to log on and report any side effects however minor. It may still be in my car. If it is I will scan it and post it.

No, I believe you about that… but is this actually a brand-new thing, or does it also happen with other vaccines?

Never seen it for any other vaccine. Certainly didn't get one after my flu jab and the boy has never been given one after any of his. This is specifically for the covid vaccines.

Hold whatever view you want about others but quit it with the churlish, abusive name calling.

You safe behind a keyboard, like me, eh?

There has the be a cost.

My wife doesn't get to chose who she treats - vaccinated or antivax.

She's put in the firing line.

There HAS to be a cost.

here is the MHRA’s reporting website…

Report all other vaccine side effects here:

https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/yellowcards/reportmediator/

There are systems for reporting side effects for all vaccines, medicines, medical equipment.. and even unregistered quakery.

Never seen it for any other vaccine. Certainly didn’t get one after my flu jab and the boy has never been given one after any of his. This is specifically for the covid vaccines.

Omicron ? Omicon 🤔

You safe behind a keyboard, like me, eh?

There has the be a cost.

My wife doesn’t get to chose who she treats – vaccinate or antivax.

She’s put in the firing line.

There HAS to be a cost.

My wife too (staff nurse). And she holds the same view as me.

Perhaps you should ask her about this "only recording side effects of coronavirus related vaccines" thing you've bought into?

My wife too (staff nurse). And she holds the same view as me.

... And mine will treat you or your wife while you are literally coughing and spitting all over her - She has the choice of walking away or helping everyone - she knows the risks (the inevitable) but she's got a backbone and made a choice so she'll treat you and your wife to the same level of as any other person she sees.

Perhaps you should ask her about this “only recording side effects of coronavirus related vaccines” thing you’ve bought into?

I had not seen that before and it is interesting. I have never seen such a leaflet before though but they clearly exist - I have no issues in being wrong on that point.

However in respect of multiple and very regular doses of mRNA vaccines being completely untested in the mid to long-term. That is simply a matter of fact.

… And mine will treat you or your wife while you are literally coughing and spitting all over her – She has the choice of walking away or helping everyone – she knows the risks (the inevitable) but she’s got a backbone and made a choice so she’ll treat you and your wife to the same level of as any other person she sees.

As will my wife. I don't see the point you are trying to make here. Are you trying to imply that my wife gives lesser care than yours?

I would note we are both double-jabbed and have both had covid...

Well, for medical reasons, my youngest and my partner have flu vaccines every year, and always get a sheet detailing expected side effects, and requesting reporting of any more serious or longer lasting side effects. Every medicine and piece of medical equipment in the house does as well.

Let's go super basic on this... and take your wife out of the conversation... and any less common conditions any us may have... go and get any cold remedy from the cupboard... I've got some "OptiPharma" cheap Lemsip copy from Lidl here... containing Parcetamol and Phenylephrine Hyrochloride.... nothing "untested"... nothing "rushed"...

Reporting of side effects
If you get any side effects, talk to your doctor, pharmacist or nurse. This includes anyone possible side effects not listed in this leaflet. You can also report side effects directly via the Yellow Card Scheme at: www.mhra.gov.uk/yellowcard
By reporting side effects you can help provide more information on the safety of this medicine.

You safe behind a keyboard, like me, eh?

There has the be a cost.

My wife doesn’t get to chose who she treats – vaccinated or antivax.

She’s put in the firing line.

There HAS to be a cost.

My wife is a pharmacist dealing with sick people of all varieties every day. She doesn't get to choose who she treats either. However she doesn't hurl abuse at those which hold a different set of values and opinions to her and neither do I.

State you disagree with people all you want just stop it with the name calling please, it adds absolutely nothing but unpleasantness to any debate.