Today I’ve survived 2 x 1h car sharing with two anti-vaxxers without once raising my voice or taking the piss.
The thing I don't understand about both the anti-vaxxers and the anti anti-vaxxers is why it's even a debate in the first place. No one should have the right to tell another person what to do with their body (do we really want to have a conversation about abortion rights for example?) and the success of vaccine programmes is always predicated entirely on them being voluntary - making them compulsory is entirely counter productive.
I get the anti-vaxxers more than I get those that get so angry with them even though I cannot find a single reason to agree with those who are against (voluntarily) having the vaccine.
The thing I don’t understand about both the anti-vaxxers and the anti anti-vaxxers is why it’s even a debate in the first place. No one should have the right to tell another person what to do with their body (do we really want to have a conversation about abortion rights for example?) and the success of vaccine programmes is always predicated entirely on them being voluntary – making them compulsory is entirely counter productive.
It's never been about them being compulsory though - it's been about whether they are worthwhile.
As you'd know if you'd joined the forum sooner.
Don’t think anyone is calling for the vaccines to be compulsory?
What you are seeing in some countries is choosing to not be vaccinated having some consequences - ranging from no being able to go to the pub, to being stood-down from work (particularly those in healthcare roles) - but that’s not “compulsory”
Oh - and welcome to the forum
Jude, you've mis-spelled obtuse.
You've misspelled misspelled.
There are 11 compulsory vaccines for kids on this side of the Channel. That doesn't seem to be an issue. Yet the Covid vaccines which aren't obligatory get people happy to vaccinate their kids with the obligatory vaccines frothing. Go figure.
No one should have the right to tell another person what to do with their body
The naked rambler would tend to agree. But society has decided that covering it up in public is required to maintain decency.
In the US vaccines are mandated for school entry. I’m happy for them not to be mandated, but alao happy with the consequences of not doing so. Travel being one of them that is already established for other vaccines.
a conversation about abortion rights for example
Straw man is full of straw. As far as I'm aware an abortion does not affect anyone other than the woman and the foetus (possibly the sperm supplier too). Failing to vaccinate can have disastrous effects on the vulnerable in society.
Given a Geramn minister rightly pointed out that by next Spring there would be three categories of people: the vaccinated, the non-vaccinated survivors of Covid and the dead I'm not so sure about that protection theory. It seems to me that the main benefit of vaccination to society as a whole is that fewer people get ill enough to need a hospital bed which in turn means we don't shut down society in a lockdow to prevent transmission at the point hospitals become saturated with Covid patients.
At current infection levels we're all going to be exposed to the virus at infective dose levels sooner or later, the more of us who are vaccinated the fewer will end up in hosptial.
So the original vaccine produced a T cell repsonse and got the immune system on high alert for c-19 cells Lets say these look like 1111111111111111111111111.
Along comes Delta , our T-cell count is still quite high and the double jabbed have some aged T cells and some newer T cells with better eyesight , they spot Delta is now 11111111111i1111111
and do what they do to neautralise the live virus cell before it can invade host cells and replicate.
Along comes Omnicron which looks like 11111111111111111I1111I111, and our now 6 - 9 month old antibodies , with slightly failing eyesight and a dodgy hips dont recognise it as they are looking out for 1111111111111111111111111. But some new ,original recipe c-19 vaccine cells in jab#3 kickstart the immunity system again to produce more young healthy T-cells with great eyesight , who are quick on their feet and spot that 11111111111111111I1111I111 is not actually 1111111111111111111111111 but is its angry younger brother who is also a bad'un , and has a little scuffle with him as well ?
dumbed down as i dont really understand how it all works but is it this kind of the theory. I dont get how 1 jab saves us from MMR , polio iirc for life but even the newest Rnma vaccine wains soo quick. Or is it like the annual flu jab , it is strain dependant and because air travel etc the new strains travel around the globe in a week so we need a different sort of protection?
Interesting paragraph from the bbc in an article regarding the updated rules about vaccinated people not needing to self isolate if they are a contact of an omicron case
Unvaccinated adults are not eligible for this new policy and must self-isolate for 10 days if they are a contact of a positive coronavirus case - whether Omicron or not.
But daily testing does apply to people who can prove they are unable to be vaccinated for clinical reasons.
Edit - article here, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59628609, read the full thing or the above paragraph might not make full sense /edit
They’ve taken the (in my view acceptable compromise) position of not needlessly forcing negative-testing vaccinated people to isolate… and then given the same privilege to those who cannot be vaxxed for medical reasons, which makes no sense from a public health perspective.
But does make sense from a ‘make the voluntarily unjabbed into second class citizens’ perspective.
A policy I am in favour of, by the way.
For someone who claims not to understand how it all works that's a pretty good summary, singletrackmind. What's missing is that Pfizer claims that a triple dose of its vaccine produces enough antibodies to neutralise the virus in the lab, so even if the vaccine (and the antibodies it provokes the production of) isn't as effective against Omicron as previous variants it's still good enough for the time being. There isn't complete vaccine escape yet.
It seems to me that the main benefit of vaccination to society as a whole is that fewer people get ill enough to need a hospital bed which in turn means we don’t shut down society in a lockdow to prevent transmission at the point hospitals become saturated with Covid patients.
I always thought that was the whole point.
Slight quandary - booked my booster for 30/12 as soon as I was eligible - at the time it was 50+ and 6 months after 2nd jibjab. Self-employed and work is crazy till mid next week. Can’t afford a day out if I end up with a dodgy reaction to booster. Was fine with 1st but pretty bloody ropey after 2nd. Do I wait and have mine on 30th or just try and get one ASAP from a walk-in somewhere?
Similar , but got my Tuesday eve ( booked sat eve ) and will roll the dice on re-action levels.
You say your flat out with work till middle of next week, why not try to get a slot for say 21st -22nd . Then you should be OK for xmas eve / xmas day ?
We've just cancelled flying to Denmark to be with the inlaws for Christmas. We have both had our booster jab but can't afford to test positive and have delays getting back or be stuck in isolation.
How fast does booster protection wane, as I’m nearly 6 months post booster?
My mum has just bounced Boxing Day lunch. Ever the pragmatist.
My mother in law seems to have invited the world despite getting a right kicking from covid she caught last Christmas…
I’m nearly 6 months post booster?
Omicron dream victim I reckon.
You've probably got just a couple of frail aging antibodies knocking around somewhere.
My wife and I couldn't book before Christmas so we booked in our booster for Jan. We'll need to read about what to do
How fast does booster protection wane, as I’m nearly 6 months post booster?
Half life is likely to be the same as post first vaccination. That’s two months (which is the lifetime of The B cells making the antibodies), so you’re three half lives down the line and will have 1/8th the protection immediately post booster. Fortunately, the booster gives higher levels than first course so you’re probably about where you were post first course, possibly higher. Another would not go amiss.
I’ve long thought that vaccines should be given frequently to get to steady state, and then less often thereafter leading to annual dosing. Posology of vaccines is very poorly understood compared with medicines. That might change with the advent of mRNA vaccines.
Pfizer have been saying 12 months between boosters dantsw13, since we last speculated about it on here. Still nothing being communicated to you by the trial?
EDIT: they have also said that Omicron might mean the second booster is needed sooner… so no one really knows yet, do they. I wouldn’t allow yourself to be panicked though, you’re in a better position than all us “2 shots of AZ waiting for our booster slot” people.
dantsw aren't you a vaccinator who has been idle for a while? After tonight's announcement presumably there will more for you to do and you will get whatever boosters are recommended for you. Or are you back doing your regular work now?
There’s no advice at all on 3rd boosters yet. Considering I’m on the booster trial, and we aren’t having our bloods taken again until 1 yr post booster…. They’ve told us “no more boosters required for you at the moment..
Yes, I’m a “currently idle” vaccinator. My trust has shut down all my local vacc sites, nearest is 90 mins drive each way 😣 Due to the fragmented nature of the NHS, there are closer sites with different trusts I could work at, but they are different employers. Add to that my trust require me to have a PCR test after each flight I do (airline pilot) before I can work. Until recently it was no work within 10 days of a flight.
Dont get me started on the pharmacies all staffed with volunteer vaccinators (mostly retired nurses) whilst the pharmacies rake in £15/ jab 🤬
Any guidance on what level of protection for someone who's double jabbbed and had covid in the past couple of weeks? Supposed to have a night in Manchester next Saturday. Just 2 of us. The only thing I have planned at all for the entire month. Completely unsure if I'm as at risk of Omicron as anyone else
Completely unsure if I’m as at risk of Omicron as anyone else
Most adults are double jabbed, quite a few have had au naturel covid infections too, but Omicron is doubling every two days in our population regardless. It's very contagious.
The answer is that double jab + infection maybe offers 'some' protection against being infected, but not that much. Likewise you will probably still be able to pass it on to your close contacts. But it's also likely that you will continue have decent protection against becoming seriously ill as a result.
It's a personal choice for you, depending on your age, the venues you're wanting to visit, and who you're seeing for Christmas dinner on a day when you could be asymptomatically infectious if you pick it up on the 18th.
Can you get into a walk-in booster clinic in the next day or so? Even a week after a Pfizer shot the increase in antibodies is pretty helpful, so there would be some benefit there.
Huzzah for Western Australia
Our state Prem has just said borders will open on Feb 5.
International arrivals welcomed. No quarantine if double jabbed. Need a -ve PCR 72 hours before arriving, then another 48 hours AFTER arrival, and a further -ve PCR 6 days after arrival.
Let's see how this all works out - curently we have 1.....ONE case in hotel quarantine. Be interesting to see this graph unfold.
My wife and youngest tested positive this weekend. We were booked to get boosters this week: obviously she's out but I can't find anywhere whether I should postpone my booster as a close contact.
Regardless of a negative PCR test on the day before the booster, logic says I should reschedule, I don't fancy booster as well as live infection at the same time and she'll only be 6 days into her infection...
I'd follow the data tbh. You say this week but that could be today or five days' time. If you are still negative and asymptomatic then, I'd get the booster.
It's not clear cut that because your wife and youngest have it that you will. My wife has quarantined twice, with my kids and then me and never got it, she works in a school and has not caught it there either. A work colleague rents a room with his wife, she caught it a few weeks ago and there was nowhere for him to quarantine to, but never caught it despite being in the same room.
Thanks Jon, leaning that way really - but battling the logic. Booster is booked for Thursday, which will be 5 days from her PCR Sunday, symptoms started Saturday.
I think I’ll keep out their way, PCR Wednesday and if negative still take the booster on Thursday. I feel a sense of inevitability that I’ll catch it this week but hear lots of anecdotal stories at work similar to your colleagues, appears incredible]y random for something so highly contagious…
something so highly contagious…
I'm not sure we (general public) understand what that means.
For certain, an R above 1 and doubling rates in the order of days is contagious, and maybe even highly contagious but compared to what? And in absolute terms? Measles and chickenpox for example have R > 10 in unprotected communities.
And I know how exponential works, a few doublings and in a fortnight this could be burning out of control. But for example R=2 means on average every infected person gives it to two more. Not 22, or 102.
The fact it isn't higher, and examples like previous post, means it's far from inevitable that contact with an infected person will lead to you being infected.
Does it mean we shouldn't take precautions, to try to reduce it as much as reasonably possible. No, as before exponential is scary. But it's absolutely not like farting in a room, where everyone in there's going to smell it.
Anecdotal evidence from my morning commute. No change in traffic from last week.
Either everyone who can work from home already was, or they are ignoring the latest advice.
The fact it isn’t higher, and examples like previous post, means it’s far from inevitable that contact with an infected person will lead to you being infected.
Absolutely. I think (from memory) that the Household Secondary Attack Rate of delta is around 11% in fully vaccinated individuals (25% for unvaccinated) - so at worst a 1 in 4 chance. The early suggestion is that HSAR of Omicron is roughly double that.
Anecdotal evidence from my morning commute. No change in traffic from last week.
schools are still in. by far the biggest influence on morning traffic.
moderna booster update - day4, armpit still pretty sore.
Can someone explain to me (and I'm willing to listen), how being double jabbed offers zero protection from omicron, yet being 'boosted' offers 75% protection?
Timescales haven't even been taken into considersation with this statement
Scenario 1 - you had your second jab a month ago. No protection from Omicron
Scenario 2 - you had your second jab 6 months ago and the immunity has waned, but have your booster and you're 'safe'
Ever the cynic, something doesn't stack up, but as I say, willing to be told and listen to the science
Anecdotal evidence from my morning commute. No change in traffic from last week.
Suspect people need a day to sort themselves out, collect laptops etc. I suspect fewer people will be on public transport too, as some will have chosen to drive instead.
Adherence was always going to be a bit lower than lockdown 1.0 due to rule fatigue but I’m genuinely concerned that Boris has so little moral authority left, if a really stringent lockdown is required in January not enough of the population will agree to it and we could be in a pickle
My colleagues in the vaccination programme are preparing for a very busy few weeks!
Anecdotal evidence from my morning commute. No change in traffic from last week.
My commute had significantly less traffic, resulted in around 15mins shorter commute time!
I noticed the local petrol station was unusually busy this morning. People panicking, pre-empting panic buying?
I hadn't booked my booster yet, I am literally just over having Covid myself. Positive PCR 20th Nov, recovered and back at work 30th Nov. So I was holding off really until he did his thing last night.
I have 2x AZ jabs, May and July. Should I be in a rush to get boosted right now if I have just recovered from it (still tired now), and presumably have a good amount of antibodies from that? Presumably it was Delta
Straw man is full of straw. As far as I’m aware an abortion does not affect anyone other than the woman and the foetus (possibly the sperm supplier too). Failing to vaccinate can have disastrous effects on the vulnerable in society.
Plenty of people would disagree with this (that abortion has no effect on the wider society); clearly many people feel that abortion is wrong and they fear the negative consequence of its practise. I personally don't agree with them and support the right for abortion to exist, but that does not negate any other prevailing sentiment that others have.
Yes the vaccine has a collective good but that collective good is in the same category of good as say not smoking, not being over weight, not having lots and lots of unprotected sex etc. There are any number of behaviours that result in the individual becoming a burden to society. If we make vaccines compulsory on the premise of the collective good, you are then going to have to grapple with the moral corollaries of these and run the risk of hypocrisy if you decide that one lack of collective compliance is necessarily less problematic than the other.
Of course, societies do this all the time; decide one moral equivalent is acceptable and another isn’t; but then all societies also tread the fine line between liberty and tyranny. Telling someone what they have to put in their body should never be something we accept (in my opinion).
I know we aren’t talking about them being compulsory here in the UK but they have been doing this in many parts of Europe. In Germany now you have to show papers to police officers in the street to prove you are ‘clean’; goodness if only there was some symbol you could wear that would indicate this to the wider society,.
<blockquoteCan someone explain to me (and I’m willing to listen), how being double jabbed offers zero protection from omicron, yet being ‘boosted’ offers 75% protection?
The levels of antibody generated from the double babe are lower than those from the booster. That's ignoring the decline in antibodies over time. It appears that omicron has about a 32x lower sensitivity to antibodies - you need 32x higher concentration to have the same neutralisation. That would be the same level as 10 months after your second jab. We know protection wanes over time from US and other studies as antibody levels wane.
Boosting increases the levels, but over time they will decline again. Level of protection is related to antibody concentration divided by neutralising potency - you can have a high antibody titer, but they just don't stick to omicron. That has been noted in tests of the majority of approved therapeutic antibodies.
It is analogous to taking paracetamol for a nasty headache. The first dose gives levels that will reduce the pain, but as the drug is eliminated, pain returns and another dose is merited. Time between doses for drugs is normally 1-2 half-lives for chronic dosing. Sometimes you can give more to get a longer effect. Half-life of paracetamol is about 1-4 hours. Half life of antibodies is 2 months. But each has a therapeutic or protective level to maintain effect.
In Germany now you have to show papers to police officers in the street to prove you are ‘clean’; goodness if only there was some symbol you could wear that would indicate this to the wider society,.
in the USA, the land of the free, where socialised healthcare is the devil and all that...
Vaccinations are required to attend school.
"All fifty states in the U.S. mandate immunizations for children in order to enroll in public school, but the specific vaccines required differ from state to state, and various exemptions are available depending on state law."
Do not feed the fresh trolling account.
http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-home-testing-kits-have-run-out-on-governments-website-12494810
And now there are no test kits.
In Germany now you have to show papers to police officers in the street to prove you are ‘clean’;
Not unless you want to enter a restricted place:
In Germany now you have to show papers to police officers in the street to prove you are ‘clean
Cite
