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RNA vaccines are very exciting, necessity has accelerated their development, hopefully there will be a feedback of the tech into other illnesses including cancer.
I'd like to think that global cooperation will increase after this, a lot of countries UK & EU have signed up to Who's Covax facility to get vaccines to poorer countries & do nate any surpluses etc
Didn't the covax agreement include a bit on once a proportion of the population in a given country were vaccinated then the vaccine would be redistributed to other countries until we are all up to that level or was I being idealistic?
Just can't see that happening sadly if it was in there
The EU were only proposing to implement the protocol in a limited and specific way so don't see what the problem was.
Meanwhile WHO is proposing countries should halt vaccination after the vulnerable and frontline workers have been vaccinated.
Good luck with that.
Yes that's what the Who were proposing
The idea of Covax originally was that countries wouldn't negotiate seperately for vaccines as that would cause disputes & inequality.....
Sadly the world's not that altruistic
And trusting the WHO to coordinate the biggest worldwide vaccine rollout in history, juggling a multitude of different pharma firms, is sadly unrealistic.
The UK variant was detected on continent well over a month ago, but cases dont seem to have increased as rapidly there so far?
Took a couple of months from first detection here (September I think) for it to be having a significant impact in caseload, so it's still seeding over there.
I think people are missing why the EU have gone public and angry… when Pfizer had to reduce supply below that promised to countries, they did two things… told all countries with orders that their supply would be reduced, including the ones producing the vaccine and funding their research, and were fully transparent about the issues, and what was being done to turn the problem around and get back to the levels agreed ASAP. AZ have taken a very different approach… if they were expecting EU countries, and the EU itself, to just shrug… rather than kick up a fuss, they were mistaken. It’s all unseemly political noise for now, but it could get very messy if companies and governments do decide to shift now to nation first approaches… which would be self defeating, ultimately.
And…
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/medicines-that-cannot-be-parallel-exported-from-the-uk
From 1st Jan, the UK’s ban on exporting short supply drugs was applied to the EU.
I think people are missing why the EU have gone public and angry…
They're angry because they have completely ballsed up their vaccine programme and are being embarrassed by the fact the UK and US are miles ahead. And now instead of admitting it and taking it on the chin, they're deflecting attention with grubby political games. Instead of making demands and flexing their muscles they should have simply asked for help, but I think we all know why they would never do that.
AZ have taken a very different approach… if they were expecting EU countries, and the EU itself, to just shrug… rather than kick up a fuss, they were mistaken
It seems very clear that AZ was quite open with the EU about the problems experienced in their Belgium plant I believe? The one's that resulted in the 60-70%? shortfall this delivery.
As has been said, it's quite reasonable to expect, and normal to see, some problems when ramping up production of these vaccines.
The UK got in early with their taskforce, put a lot of risk money up, etc., allowing AZ to get up to speed for the UK-bound production earlier.
I do see your point, but the EU isn't buying cans of coke from an established production line. To demand that all AZ vaccine production goes into a pool and is shared out pro-rata, between all buyers, for example, ignores the role these buyers have had in enabling and/or funding the AZ production capabilities in the first place. The UK, for example, took on a lot of risk early on of which the EU seem to think they themselves are entitled to beneft. This is a moral hazard and just plain wrong.
We also benefited in the UK from the early roll out of a vaccine developed in Germany, with German government funds, produced by Dutch and Belgium cooperation.
How quick we forget…
That list of medicines is a who’s who of respiratory pharmacology. Throw in some antibiotics and anti-IL6 antibodies for cytokine storm and it’s basically anything that might have some use on the impending epidemic. You can still export hydroxychloroquine.
We also benefited in the UK from the early roll out of a vaccine developed in Germany, with German government funds, produced by Dutch and Belgium cooperation.
Not sure why you keep posting this stuff, no one is denying the UK has benefitted from vaccine development in the EU. The issue around the AZ supply is a matter between the EU and AZ. It shouldn't affect anything else, and shouldn't be blown up into a UK vs EU issue which is what the EU seem to be doing.
I mentioned it because of a post saying that we should keep “our” supplies to ourselves.
This…
The UK, for example, took on a lot of risk early on of which the EU seem to think they themselves are entitled to beneft. This is a moral hazard and just plain wrong.
We benefited from the actions and investment (risk) of the Germans and other EU governments and companies. The idea that plucky old Britain took on all the work, and should keep the bounty for itself is fantasy. Easy to buy into with a quick scan of the UK papers though.
Der Spiegel's take on EU vaccine issues - https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/europe-s-vaccine-disaster-commission-president-ursula-von-der-leyen-seeking-to-duck-responsibility-a-1197547d-6219-4438-9d69-b76e64701802
tl;dr when you put Germany's equivalent of Chris Grayling in charge you can expect to live in interesting times.
it’s basically anything that might have some use on the impending epidemic
It was added to during the pandemic. It became a crunch issue at the start of this year. Surprisingly not mentioned in the UK media and press when the EU threatened to “control” exports to the UK via NI… while we now “control” exports to the EU via any channel.
I mentioned it because of a post saying that we should keep “our” supplies to ourselves.
Well I wouldn't describe it as 'our supplies', but I think its valid to expect supply chains which the UK govt funded and enabled thanks to their quick decision making to be dedicated to local supply. The EU had the same opportunity as the UK in considering how best to setup the supply chains for the AZ vaccine. Instead of signing the deal and getting on with it they prevaricated, resulting in the delay and subsequent problems. Even then they had an opportunity to ask for help and be sensible about it, but instead they chose to make demands and issue threats. It's hardly a surprise then that they're not getting the response they want.
The idea that plucky old Britain took on all the work, and should keep the bounty for itself is fantasy.
No one apart from a few idiots are saying that. Instead it's a simple issue of the UK taking rapid action to set up supply chaings in good time, and now we are benefitting from that. Other countries had that opportunity too, and didn't take it.
but I think its valid to expect supply chains which the UK govt funded and enabled thanks to their quick decision making to be dedicated to local supply
Well, there’s your vaccine nationalism then. Think through the consequences.
And, a reminder, we were getting vaccines into care homes in December, while the world watched on… those doses where produced in Belgium, and it was a vaccine developed in Germany with Germany government funds. What if they said, “we’re stockpiling these for our own rollout”?
Well, there’s your vaccine nationalism then
It's not vaccine nationalism, it's simple logistics and common sense. Why does everything have to be badged as a 'nationalism' or UK vs EU or remain vs leave? This has got bollox all to do with nationalism, brexit or anything else. Stop trying to turn this into a UK vs EU issue.
Strictly speaking, this is purely a contractual matter between AZ and the EU.
Stop trying to turn this into a UK vs EU issue.
I wasn’t.
@Rio
That's an interesting article.
The graph on dose numbers and relative costs is fascinating, AZ are producing 400 million doses for between 25 and 33% the price of an equivalent number of curevac and j&j.
Well, there’s your vaccine nationalism then. Think through the consequences.
Kelvin, its not really(and I'm probably in this thread one of the most to lose from this EU BS, parents live in Spain and dad is transplantee). The Eu have messed up their strategy, compared to almost every other developed nation/region. Its not just on the AZ vaccine that they messed up. The thing is they banked a lot on the AZ vaccine being on time, because it was the cheapest of them all (someone correct me on this). Their prediction was that there would be plenty of suppliers and vaccines to chose from, but this hasn't been the case. From the start of January, newspapers have been calling them out on this blunder, but now its blown up in their face.
In addition, (I can't find the sources on this atm) the AZ vaccine also had delays on the UK front. However these were ironed out, earlier, since the contract with Az started 3 months earlier. The EU are very rich group of nations, so it blows my mind why the took such a cheap approach on this, when countries like Italy and Spain were bleeding out. We aren't talking about depriving a set of poor nations that could have never afforded the more expensive alternatives of this vaccine.
And then there is the "are they going to have the balls to go after Israel's supply?
I suspect VDL won't see the end of her tenure, even if vaccine delivery can be ramped up & I'm sure Pfizer, AZ etc will be trying as hard as possible, her credibility is toast
The EU are very rich group of nations, so it blows my mind why the took such a cheap approach on this, when countries like Italy and Spain were bleeding out.
One of the big reasons is that healthcare is devolved in the EU, individually some countries have input far more into development than others, Germany for example and their investment in the biontech RNA vaccine
France, Italy, Holland & Germany started the EU vaccine scheme initially & commission took it over
Another problem is that MHRA did a lot of heavy lifting for EMA, they won about 1/3rd of EMA contracts, EMA having moved bases & struggled to replace workers list to brexit won't have helped at all
Also it seems VDL is not that good! (if u remember she wasn't Merkels choice)
In addition, (I can’t find the sources on this atm) the AZ vaccine also had delays on the UK front.
On the face of it, sharing vaccines pro-rata between the purchasers seems reasonable, but as has been noted, these supply chains did not appear out of thin air, instead, they needed funding and developing in conjunction with the buyer. The buyers then assumes some risk given the teething problems that can be expected with ramping up vaccine production. The EU came in late, with a light wallet, and now implicitly demand that the UK absorb their risk by giving up some UK bound production. It's an outrageous proposition!
Question regarding vaccines and long Covid (which scares the shit out of me). I think I read but now can't find, that those suffering with it, having the vaccine may help cure it. Something about the vaccine killing the residual virus.
I may have dreamt this!
And before I forget, thanks to all for the informative information.
The EU came in late, with a light wallet, and now implicitly demand that the UK absorb their risk by giving up some UK bound production. It’s an outrageous proposition!
“The EU” came in late, EU countries did not… again, that is where our supply for our head start on vaccinations came from… a vaccine funded by the German government and produced in labs repurposed in Belgium.
“The EU” came in late, EU countries did not…
It's almost like having a supra-national layer of bureaucracy above nation states hasn't done them any favours. I'd be careful with that line of reasoning. 🙂
Honestly, it doesn't really matter where the early work happened. All that matters is that the EU thought it could cut corners in timescales and funding in setting up it's supply chains on the assumption that someone else would be able to supply them. Now they're suffering because of that, and instead of accepting the situation and doing whatever is necessary to solve it, they're turning it into an international incident. What's worse is that through their actions they've given every daily heil reading, two world wars and a world cup final jingoist the perfect excuse to say they told us so.
Agree with Daz right there
Does anyone know if other countries/territories are building new manufacturing centres for vaccines like the vmic?
Just interested as this seems to be a sensible long term investment.
VMIC was conceived quite a few years ago as UK didnt have a specialist vaccine institute in the way we have for other life sciences, modeled after French Pasteur & Paul Ehrlich institute in Germany, was due to be finished in 2024, but they're planning to open it sooner now
All that matters is that the EU thought it could cut corners in timescales and funding in setting up it’s supply chains on the assumption that someone else would be able to supply them.
Not entirely true
German government invested heavy in Biontech few years ago as did EIB, and EIB put up a further £100m for the vaccine in June,
UK has benefited greatly from that as well as delivery of early AZ vaccines from EU facilities
So you can see why it smarts
Not that VDL hasnt been a complete dick in the last week and blown up a lot of credibility
Dazh is absolutely spot on in his assessment of the situation IMO
Agree with dazh
Am just hoping we can get everything up to speed fast both in the UK and other supply chains to make sure both the UK and others can benefit (eu risk groups and the rest of the world)
UK has benefited greatly from that as well as delivery of early AZ vaccines from EU facilities
So you can see why it smarts
As AZ said, they have a complex supply chain. That whole supply chain would have been 3-months behind what it is now without the (earlier) UK funding and orders anyway. It isn't a tap that the EU can simply turn on.
As has been said, vaccine production isn't easy especially the first batches from new plant/supply chain. The EU can have no business being shocked by AZ having trouble delivering their initial batches from new supply chains.
The EU came in late, with a light wallet, and now implicitly demand that the UK absorb their risk by giving up some UK bound production. It’s an outrageous proposition!
I mean it's almost like the British "empire" spent years doing that. The attitude some people and the wider media are taking reeks of our colonial past and it's pretty sad. The truth is we could jabs the whole country 10 times over but if that means the rest of the world misses out we will still be shut off from the rest of the world and our economy will struggle. The world as a whole needs to overcome this.
If this pandemic has taught us anything it's that perhaps we should just be a little nicer to eachother.
UK has benefited greatly from that as well as delivery of early AZ vaccines from EU facilities
This was also my point about the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. And it wasn’t to justify the EU approach or involvement, it was to counter those saying “if we make it here, and our government invested in it, we should keep it all to ourselves”… if other countries had done the same, we would not have been vaccinating early. Beware trying to present the development and production of vaccines as an over simplistic national effort and national resource. The politics of that can only stand in the way of the international efforts to get this epidemic done with.
@TiRed, thanks for the post regarding Herd Protection vs Herd Immunity. A small change in phrase but very different in nature but not so different in outcome.
I think.👍
I mean it’s almost like the British “empire” spent years doing that. The attitude some people and the wider media are taking reeks of our colonial past and it’s pretty sad. The truth is we could jabs the whole country 10 times over but if that means the rest of the world misses out we will still be shut off from the rest of the world and our economy will struggle. The world as a whole needs to overcome this.
I see your point but the ethical question is different from the contractual question. Note that the EU is arguing on the grounds of the latter not the former.
Legally I’m assuming, like most people, that they don’t have anything… it’s political pressure they are trying, hence all the unseemly noise. They have the means to turn those political screws if they’re backed further into a corner though. Very pleased that our major UK politicians haven’t said or done anything towards that ends though… cool heads so far.
The UK press however…
Strong-arming AZ and implicitly strong-arming the UK doesn't seem a particularly productive strategy given that there is no evidence AZ can 'do better' or is committing fraud, and supply chains today are global and complex. Protectionism tends to result in others following suit in a tit for tat. The EU would be better off - instrumentally speaking - by doing everything it can to facilitate the likes of AZ.
I think it's just a face-saving operation through deflection.
I must admit, nice that zahawi etc have stopped tweeting out the nationalist vaccine stuff for a few days!
It looks like they might even meet the vaccine target by mid Feb too!
As for EU, be interesting to see what happens next, VDL took personal charge of vaccine situation this week & we've seen how that panned out! (2/3rd parliament vote required to oust her-I could see that happening, especially as Merkel never wanted her)
By all accounts a lot of senior EU figures were blindsided by her moves as well
Will they be tempted to try for Russia or China vaccine? Beijing would love the PR coup, tho China have over promised on theirs already
Legally I’m assuming, like most people, that they don’t have anything
True for most things. Governments are not the operators. That falls to companies. Governments may apply regulation, but ultimately, it is the private sector that delivers.
https://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vk/herd-immunity I view "herd protection" as an individual-based activity, basically protect ME from bad stuff by injecting ME. Herd immunity may come because people have sterile protection from infection. I think achieving up to 80% sterile protection is a non-started. We have seen reinfections already over a relatively short period. Albeit with much-reduced pathogenicity (yay!). But Smallpox-style eradication? Zero Covid? I am sorry but this will be a step too far.
It works for chickens. We can learn a lot a from animal coronaviruses.
Although 100% of chickens may be protected (against clinical signs and loss of ciliary activity in trachea), sometimes 10% of vaccinated chicks may not respond with a protective immune response. Protection is short lived, the start of the decline being apparent 9 weeks after vaccination with vaccines based on highly attenuated strains
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7154303/
Very pleased that our major UK politicians haven’t said or done anything towards that ends though… cool heads so far.
The UK press however…
I've also been pleasantly surprised that our politicians are slightly less jingoistic than the Press - or they are letting the Press just do it for them