Fundamentally our government has put resuming economic activity ahead of public health.
Economic activity is intrinsically linked to public health. Worse economy = more poverty = mental health, illness, life expectancy, DV, etc.
You cannot uncouple the two. It's an equation with no good solutions, only shit ones and slightly less shit ones.
What would have been so bad about maintaining the “level 4” measures for another couple of weeks? I don’t see the need to rush. Why is the government putting the guidance out after their announcement has been acted on by potentially millions.
Might I suggest that there is a timetable in place that sees a return to "normality" by the end of June in order not to extend the furlough scheme?
Economic activity is intrinsically linked to public health.
Go and read about diamond mines.
Economic activity is intrinsically linked to public health
Does it have to be?
You think every Londoner is equipped with a bike and somewhere to store it and has a commute that is within their fitness capabilities at the start of lockdown?
To be fair, your question was: 'how would you be getting there?'
I told you.
I didn't say it was within everyone's capabilities. As it happens, my best mate who lives down there is wrestling with this very issue. He has a heart defect, so although he rides bikes, he can't manage a daily commute on one. He has an e-bike, to get over the one big hill on his route in, but the rest is flat and hard work.
He's probably going to get back on a small motorbike.
And fwiw, I agree, the whole situation is a cluster.
What would have been so bad about maintaining the “level 4” measures for another couple of weeks?
Then what?
You have the same issue, but 2 weeks later. It wouldn't change anything.
Economic activity is intrinsically linked to public health
Does it have to be?
No economic activity = no public health.
No public health services, no social services, take it to the nth degree then no utilities like clean water and sewerage systems, no law and order....
Yes I'm deliberately being extreme, but everything we need as a society is provided by someone employing someone else to do work, get paid and create tax revenue. As theotherjonv said, it's only a question of how shit the outcome is we can live with.
Go and read about diamond mines.
OK, there can be exceptions but you get the point.
Does it have to be?
Within the limitations of the world we are in, yes. There may be a widespread rejection of capitalism as a concept and we'll all move to a different model as result but right now, restarting the economy is a necessity. Sure there are different levers to restarting (gov investment in infrastructure was a means of kickstarting economies after the 1920's depressions iirc) but in the end it needs people to be doing things, earning, and paying tax that gets funneled back into doing more things. Whether it's the state or private companies that benefit most as a result is a political question, you still need the economy to be functional.
You have the same issue, but 2 weeks later. It wouldn’t change anything.
You’d have far fewer cases. Which means fewer deaths. And more chance (assuming track/trace/isolate was up and running) of isolating new cases and preventing a reemergence of the virus.
Keeping the current measures, while waiting for the numbers of ongoing cases to be much lower, and get a track/trace/isolate programme in full swing… then you can get people back to work and school while keeping a handle on what is going on, and having a good chance of bearing down on this virus, rather than just excepting a high level of infection and deaths that hundreds of other countries are managing to avoid.
He’s probably going to get back on a small motorbike.
Between a rock and a hard place ☹️
No economic activity = no public health.
No public health services, no social services, take it to the nth degree then no utilities like clean water and sewerage systems, no law and order….
Yes I’m deliberately being extreme, but everything we need as a society is provided by someone employing someone else to do work, get paid and create tax revenue. As theotherjonv said, it’s only a question of how shit the outcome is we can live with.
And, timed perfectly (from the gov document):
Unemployment is rising from a 40-year low at the start of the year; around 1.8 million households made claims for Universal Credit between 16 March and 28 April. The OBR has published a
‘reference’ scenario which suggests that, if the current measures stay in place until June and are
then eased over the next three months, unemployment would rise by more than 2 million in the
second quarter of 2020.
The OBR’s scenario suggests that GDP could fall by 35% in the second quarter of this year – and the annual contraction could be the largest in over 300 years. Workers in those sectors most affected, including hospitality and retail, are more likely to be low paid, younger and female. Younger households are also likely to be disproportionately hit in the longer term, as evidence suggests that, following recessions, lost future earnings potential is greater for young people. The longer the virus affects the economy, the greater the risks of long-term scarring and permanently lower economic activity, with business failures, persistently higher unemployment and lower earnings. This would damage the sustainability of the public finances and the ability to fund public services including the NHS. It would also likely lead to worse long-run physical and mental health outcomes, with a significant increase in the prevalence of chronic illness.
Thanks to @Jam+bo -
A staggering amount of stupidity.
All I see is people boarding trains.
People who are probably fearful of losing their livelihoods and possibly even their homes.
They have been instructed to return to work, yet given no reasonable alternative to get there, what else are they to do?
This is nothing like people venturing out to national parks or beaches, it's just people trying to survive.
So no limit on driving to exercise and you can exercise with one person not in your household.
You’d have far fewer cases. Which means fewer deaths. And more chance (assuming track/trace/isolate was up and running) of isolating new cases and preventing a reemergence of the virus.
This!!!
No economic activity = no public health.
No public health services, no social services, take it to the nth degree then no utilities like clean water and sewerage systems, no law and order….
Yes I’m deliberately being extreme, but everything we need as a society is provided by someone employing someone else to do work, get paid and create tax revenue.
Only if capitalism is the the only answer, lets be clear if deaths remain high and a vaccine is not sorted quick smart this could result in a few problems for the capitalists!
you can exercise with one person not in your household.
Eh? What have I missed?
What we're witnessing here is the greatest failure of governance in modern history.
It seems that absolutely nobody, including government ministers, has got a *ing scooby what is meant to be going on. They've been asking a series of experts on Five Live all day about what is and isn't now allowed. The answer to every single question has been the same...
"We have no detail about any of this. The government has said more information will be forthcoming at a later date."
They're literally writing government policy on the hoof, on the back of a fag packet. Just winging it!
Johnson is meant to be on his feet in parliament shortly? Will he actually turn up? Or send one of his human shields out again? After all, he's already done his ten minutes for this week.
What a total *ing shambles!
you can exercise with one person not in your household
Interesting. What’s the actual wording in the advice, and what has changed since the PM said otherwise just 19 hours earlier?
The big noise from today’s document is all about face coverings. I fully expect the focus in the media to be on that now, not on other means to help a return to workplaces.
you can exercise with one person not in your household
I thought you could meet one person outside, but stay 2m away not that I could go for a ride with someone?
So the 50 page document contradicts what Raab said this morning about visiting both parents at once?
And wtf are face masks now recommended but weren't before, buses have been running all this time! ****ing clowns complete ****ing clowns.
I thought you could meet one person outside, but stay 2m away not that I could go for a ride with someone?
Just read it in the 50 page document shared above.
People may exercise outside as many times each day as they wish. For example, this would
include angling and tennis. You will still not be able to use areas like playgrounds, outdoor gyms or
ticketed outdoor leisure venues, where there is a higher risk of close contact and touching
surfaces. You can only exercise with up to one person from outside your household – this means
you should not play team sports, except with members of your own household.
People may drive to outdoor open spaces irrespective of distance, so long as they respect
social distancing guidance while they are there, because this does not involve contact with people
outside your household.
Within the limitations of the world we are in, yes. There may be a widespread rejection of capitalism as a concept and we’ll all move to a different model as result but right now, restarting the economy is a necessity. Sure there are different levers to restarting (gov investment in infrastructure was a means of kickstarting economies after the 1920’s depressions iirc) but in the end it needs people to be doing things, earning, and paying tax that gets funneled back into doing more things. Whether it’s the state or private companies that benefit most as a result is a political question, you still need the economy to be functional.
More than a few on here would love to see capitalism dead, so I think you're wasting your breath in the echo chamber that this thread is becoming.
I looked for it myself… p27…
“You can only exercise with up to one person from outside your household”…
So there you go, riding in pairs is on… good luck people… see you in a few weeks when the data comes in…
you still need the economy to be functional.
There's another thread for this, but in orde for economies to be functional, you need a workforce that isn't terrified of going to work and randomly going off sick for long periods or possibly dying as a result. Repeated waves of infection and death is going to result in the collapse of normal economic activity. What are they going to do, march people to work at gunpoint?
“You can only exercise with up to one person from outside your household”…
Is that at a time or for the foreseeable?
Christ what a shit show.
All I see is people boarding trains.
When they were told to avoid public transport if possible, to social distance, and that measures would be in place on public transport to facilitate that. See any of that going on? It doesn't take any kind of genius to approach that train platform and consider the environment you are exposing yourself to.
have been instructed to return to work, yet given no reasonable alternative to get there, what else are they to do?
Cycle, walk, work from home and worst case scenario go by car? Sounds like lots of alternatives to me.
This is nothing like people venturing out to national parks or beaches, it’s just people trying to survive.
Thats right its far worse, its people shoulder to shoulder in a small enclosed environment with multiple surfaces being used in the same way by many other people repeatedly risking the spread of a deadly virus.
Is that at a time or for the foreseeable?
I’m going to take it to mean for the foreseeable, but you are right, it could mean per a day, or per an exercise session, or just at any particular moment. We could do relays… and ride with loads of people on one ride, but only ever two together at once, and still be following the letter of that guidance. Might have been wise to put the doc through some form of scrutiny…
A choice quote from the document… p44…
“…we have spearheaded global action to counter the pandemic…”
I’m sure when I pointed out there was no “How” in any of this last night, I was shouted down that it wasn’t the governments place, businesses would sort it and people are sensible.
“You can only exercise with up to one person from outside your household”…
I'm reading that in conjunction with the earlier paragraph:
"people can now also spend time outdoors subject to: not meeting up with any more than one person from outside your household; continued compliance with social distancing guidelines to remain two metres (6ft) away from people outside your household".
So non-contact sports only? It's probably in there so the golf clubs can re-open.
onewheelgood
SubscriberThere seem to be a few people on here upset about what they are calling “herd immunity by stealth”, but which is really implementing exactly what was promised, i.e. “flattening the curve”.
This is not flattening the curve. We did that, it worked, just. This is unflattening the curve.
sadly and as I said, there's no good solution, only shit and less shit.
It's OK while the option is work vs not work and pick up your furlough, but when the option is work and get paid or don't work and don't get paid you won't need to be getting the guns out. Don't want to go? There's 1.8M households making new claims on UC already, and many more to come who will relieve you of that duty. Take the risk of the virus that you may get or may not, and if you do may be serious or may not, vs the prospect of losing your job, life savings, home.....
The virus terrifies me. The impact of a long term economic meltdown terrifies me. The people making the decisions on the route out terrify me. It just depends which side I sleep on which terrifies me more. Not that I've slept properly for weeks now.
It's not a popular opinion but the impact of this on the economy and subsequently health and wellbeing has the potential to dwarf the impact of the virus itself. I don't say that as an advocate of the current system or of the people benefitting most from it, but right now it is the game, no matter how much we might like to be playing a different one.
So the important question is, did all that mean I can or cannot take my KTM out?
Yes, you can, it seems.
The virus terrifies me. The impact of a long term economic meltdown terrifies me. The people making the decisions on the route out terrify me. It just depends which side I sleep on which terrifies me more. Not that I’ve slept properly for weeks now.
Then stop reading about it and getting involved in this thread then and other media. Walk away, believe me it doesn't help your head to be reading or contributing to the confusion here.
TOJV - I don’t disagree, but a plan needs more than a few slogans.
Some FAQs have been published -
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do
Cycle, walk, work from home and worst case scenario go by car? Sounds like lots of alternatives to me.
This is London, is it not? A place where a significant portion of the 9 million population do not own a car, or a bike, and have up until now relied entirely on a busy public transport system.
Even if just 1% have no reasonable alternative for traveling to work, that is very near 100,000 people.
One of the main lines for me is that, no earlier than July 4th:
The ambition at this step is to open at least some of the remaining businesses and premises that have been required to close, including personal care (such as hairdressers and beauty
salons) hospitality (such as food service providers, pubs and accommodation), public places (such as places of worship) and leisure facilities (like cinemas).
I had so many MTB trips/holidays planned for this year, still have some booked too - all in the UK I might add - hopefully I'll be able to make a few before summer is out.
Not reading about it doesn't make it go away. I know about it now, that won't change. Being as informed as I can be is my way of dealing with it and while your suggestion is well intentioned I'm sure, it's neither helpful nor actionable for me.
Find out, plan, replan, mitigate. Ignore is not a plan.
TOJV – I don’t disagree, but a plan needs more than a few slogans.
Totally. Do I have faith that they have a plan that the public will support.....far from it.
Some FAQs have been published –
Better, but should have been in place 7pm Sunday night which would have avoided 17.5 pages of STW web space.
Not reading about it doesn’t make it go away. I know about it now, that won’t change. Being as informed as I can be is my way of dealing with it and while your suggestion is well intentioned I’m sure, it’s neither helpful nor actionable for me.
Find out, plan, replan, mitigate. Ignore is not a plan.
I'm not criticising you I'm trying to help. If over exposure is feeding your anxiety, then reduce it by under exposure for a few days - you don't need to ignore it. Driving yourself insane with worry won't help you, most of the outcome is beyond your control anyway. We have a Virus which you've a very small chance of being seriously ill from, and a smaller chance of dying from, and a society that'll survive somehow. Just roll with the punches, and do your best to contribute as no doubt we all are.
This is London, is it not? A place where a significant portion of the 9 million population do not own a car, or a bike, and have up until now relied entirely on a busy public transport system.
and where for years we have been telling them to give up cars and use PT because it's for their own good / the health of the planet.
Impossible situation; they have to work for the reasons above, and have to get to work. Calling them idiots for trying to balance that vs the risk they take in doing so, while sat in your spare bedroom-cum-office space working on your company provided laptop and planning your next ride is no way to be treating decent members of the population at large. This IS necessity to them, not a choice.
Better, but should have been in place 7pm Sunday night which would have avoided 17.5 pages of STW web space.
100% this
it really feels like they test the waters with leaks & interviews before the final details are revealed
of course this leads to confusion
theotherjonv
SubscriberIt’s not a popular opinion but the impact of this on the economy and subsequently health and wellbeing has the potential to dwarf the impact of the virus itself.
I think that's true, though there's lots that can be done to reduce it.
But the correct response to the virus is also the correct fix for the economy. It's impossible to have anything like business as usual with a high rate of infection. By getting reinfection rates down and consequently getting the number of infected down we both save lives and more towards sustainably reopening things.
