Was wondering something this morning.
For travelling with others (say in a car, bus or train) would having the air conditioning cranked right up help? The air runs through HEPA filters... or are they only between the outside world and the cabin? Are there other benefits related to reduced temperature and humidity? There was someone from Airbus on here talking about that a few days ago.
A friend of mine gave me an example of smoking in my old car when the air con was on full - you could hardly smell it.
The air con in my current car doesn't work.
Is the the govt that sold our NHS health data to the USA that we are going to trust?
EDIT: can't remember if they actually did this or were proposing to do it.
The problem, as I see it, is that any simple, one use/purpose device would cost a lot and the government would want to extract most value from the project. If this was just going to be "COVID-19 Tracker"(tm) and cost 50 million, and then COVID-21 came along, you would want a way of re-using the same tech to save money so that you could spend the project funds on something else. Like working from home bonuses for MPs or something.
Ergo, anything that you make needs to be flexible enough to be used for many things, or be made in such a way that, when the scope creeps, it can be changed to do more.
Examples:
Tornado GR1. Originally a Cold War long range bomber, but bodged to be a [poor] air interceptor (F3) by bolting on a different rader and maki gn the nse longer.
Eurofighter 2000. Designed as an air superiority fighter, but modified to drop bombs whn Harriers got retired and a ground attack capability was suddenly desired.
Without a shred of tin foil hat in the room, I can see a point where a contact tracing app was useful for many things other than for COVID-19, especially if your government is making some genuinely unpopular decisions with a large part of the population. Arguing that the population should accept a potential privacy nightmare because of COVID misses the point. There are zero guarantees that they would ever get rid of the data. You're also not really bound by GDPR any more (or can roll that back), so the same protections may not apply.
It's all right though. Hancock has been on the BBC reassuring us that our data will not go to "a big database in the sky". I like that the guy in charge of all this clearly understands the tech side of things so thoroughly.
Right… let’s remove the technical side to this (but for your own amusement, go and look into how many ways someone’s location can be identified, without installing a single app on their phone/computer) and instead think of it low tech… if from the data captured it is known that 20 people were in close contact at a given time, you could just ask one of those people where they were at that time… and bingo, you know where they all were.
None of this is relevant though, a contact tracing app is useful, and even more useful if location data is included, and I’d be happy for my phone to record both, and submit it when asked (with my agreement) to a database used for the sole purpose of helping stop the spread of this disease. I will not let the people involved in this UK app drag net information from me about my ‘real life’ social contacts on an ongoing basis to be held and interrogated centrally. Let us capture the information, ask us to supply it when useful, keep it within the NHS and public health bodies.
So irrespective of the privs built into the OS, anyone who wants to know can access my location at all times? Same for my PC? So the Apple/Google 'great design' is irrelevant?
A couple of screenshots of what the app asks for. The postcode bit they've asked for before, I assume gives them a rough location.
I haven't decided yes or no yet - but will look at the app when it is in the Play Store.
With regard to the UK app and location data:
But NHSX - the part of the health service that developed the app - said the app will be voluntary, and the only personal data stored by the app at the start would be the first part of the user's postcode.
Additional location data will only be recorded if users agree to a further opt-in request, NHSX added.
Apple and Google have said apps that adopt their decentralised model would not be allowed to gather location data.
I think:
the only personal data stored by the app at the start
Is a key line in that.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52540068
What genuinely scares me.
We've had it all in the last few years, lies, double talk, deception.... £350M for the NHS.....'we've had enough of experts' now becoming 'we only did what the experts told us to' ..... 'trust us, CA didn't affect the elections'....'we won't send your data anywhere else'
and yet it seems like half the population is still going to go 'but it's for the best'
I think:
the only personal data stored by the app at the start
Is a key line in that.
So install the Mk1 App, set it so it doesn't auto update and carry on until that version stops being supported, then make another decision based on facts about the personal data being recorded at the time?
TOJV - But isn’t it?
I can see why the Govt will go for a central system. For a number of years now, various Trusts, CCGs some of the larger private GP franchises have all been rushing to throw out various Apps. Mostly as a way of getting folk to 1. book their own appts. to see a doctor and 2. eventually get people to choose a more convenient remote consultation over actually coming to the surgery. 3. loads of peripheral stuff like repeat 'scripts and online advice
This is an ideal reason/excuse to get folk to both download a Uk-wide single app and get used to using it. Once people are used to it, give it more features (like the ones I mentioned up there) and bingo, one app, all the NHS.
So Cum Dommings and his mate from the AI company that Vote Leave used have been secretly attending the sage meeting and are heavily involved in the government response to covid-19?
And now there's going to be a tracking app coming from this lot?
No, ta very much.
TOJV – But isn’t it?
A contact tracing app run by a trusted* third party - absolutely
But as per email above - when that exists, but we've decided to go for one created and run by the folks with the track record I mentioned, there has to be at least high suspicion of some ulterior motive. And if there isn't then why go to the effort of duplicating what exists/do they not realise the years of mistrust will lead to lower uptake and be trying to be whiter than white on it.
* do I really trust google/apple.......but when the option is them vs Cummings and co.
Quite
On a technical point - this contact tracing app is being run by NHS England. Health is devolved to Scotland and run by NHS Scotland Health boards and Public Health Scotland. Whether this NHSX app will be part of the strategy has not been reported yet - not that I have seen anyway.
I don't have much to add as you are all far brighter than me but by and large I have found this thread really really informative, especially TiReds input so thank you.
The one thing I can add, is that as a barber in a big village in West Yorkshire the average customer doesn't think like you lot and will therefore happily download the app. And my customers that actually deal with code/computers for a living don't trust Google or Apple nevermind the government.
And I hope when they announce their big cobbled together plan that it doesn't include me re-opening to protect peoples mental health due to bad hair!
Putting aside the (legitimate) concerns about transparency and privacy, it would have been a huge task for a competent IT delivery team to properly specify, design and deliver a safe and fully functional contact tracing app since the start of the outbreak.
Have the people who brought you Dyson ventilators, Burberry PPE and "your test's in the post" managed to do it properly in that time? Not a hope in hell.
this contact tracing app is being run by NHS England
And if Ireland use an app based on the tech giants solution … what will those living north of the border be using, and how will it help with contact tracing for those whose lives cross the border?
And my customers that actually deal with code/computers for a living don’t trust Google or Apple nevermind the government.
Google and Apple know that. Which is one of the reasons they have taken the approach they have, and published it.
OK, what is the likelihood of immunity? And lasting immunity?
From New Scientist article below, it looks like corona viruses have previously jumped from animal to human caused pandemics (Russian Flu 1889) and then lost virulence over time, now appearing as one of the many causes of the common cold.
As far as I can see, there’s no guarantee that you won’t catch the same cold twice - eg if your immune response wasn’t that great the first time round or in time (maybe this is why colds more serious for older people - adaptive immune system forgets?).
Given our lack of success with eliminating colds, I’m struggling with this. With our interventions will it follow the same pattern over the next couple of years? If we can keep it from rampaging (more than it has) will it become less potent and is that the best we can expect?
I’d recommend reading the register article as it has a summary of how the app is going to behave and also points out one or two potential pitfalls.
https://twitter.com/mikarv/status/1257575828323532800?s=21
🤦🏻♂️
TBH, a higher mortality rate amongst iPhone users seems like a small price.
On a technical point – this contact tracing app is being run by NHS England. Health is devolved to Scotland and run by NHS Scotland Health boards and Public Health Scotland. Whether this NHSX app will be part of the strategy has not been reported yet – not that I have seen anyway.
That was the bit that got me, hadn't even thought about that yesterday. There have been a few questions comparability issues asked by journalist regarding the return of travel. The obvious ones would seem to be related to England - Wales - Scotland. Object - enemy of the people cums into play. It is a challenge to devolved power.
what will those living north of the border be using
To be decided. I can't see 80% of Scots trusting an app developed by anyone connected to a Tory Govt though.
Interoperability was another reason to go with the Google/Apple approach - for cross-border usefulness.
TBH, a higher mortality rate amongst iPhone users seems like a small price.
Funny.
You haven’t quite got how these measures are to protect the community, not the person running the app, have you.
as a barber in a big village in West Yorkshire
Your skills are more useful than mine now! My son has asked me to cut his hair. That's how desperate things have got. He's 19 and wants to impress on Zoom.
TBH, a higher mortality rate amongst iPhone users seems like a small price.
Funny.
You haven’t quite got how these measures are to protect the community, not the person running the app, have you.
The probability of a bus/train/meeting room full of smartphone users with all their phones locked in their pocket is about...zero IME. But yes, one reason why Apple got involved. Probably a big driver for them actually, they didn't want the PR of Apple iPhones 'not working with Covid apps'.
I think the point people are trying to make is that it doesn't matter how many of us do our "civic duty" as ordered by Matt Hancock on the BBC this morning - if the thing doesn't work it is just an expensive way to gather data on people who probably already vote Tory.
It has to work from a technical standpoint, and people have to trust it. I love the way it has NHS written all over it. After you have done your clapping on Thursday you can download it, but unless it comes with a time machine add-on that allows people to go back an reverse their poor voting choice, I am not convinced of the efficacy.
The probability of a bus/train/meeting room full of smartphone users with all their phones locked in their pocket is about…zero IME
You skipped over the fact that someone would need to have the app open to start a chain of digidol handshaking through said bus/train/meeting room. It won’t work if they’re all just playing Clash of Clans, or looking at pictures of puppies. It’s okay though, in most situations the ‘droids will be present to be the vital seed that kicks things off.
There is a solution to this and other ‘snags’, and I’ve yet to hear anyone from the government adequately explain why we are not using it. Until I do hear why we must go our own way, and what the limits are to the data gathering/retention/access, I’m out.
It’s okay though, in most situations the ‘droids will be present to be the vital seed that kicks things off.
Ah, so those are the droids you're looking for 😉
Glad someone picked up on that. Wish I’d thought of it yesterday. The ‘droids playing a vital role in the saving of the day.
Ah, so those are the droids you’re looking for 😉
Very good
I see Rishi Sunak has finally admitted that he won't do 'whatever it takes' to mitigate the economic impact of the virus:
"But as some scenarios have suggested we are potentially spending as much on the furlough scheme as we do on the NHS for example. Now clearly that is not a sustainable situation.”
Looks like the tories are still looking at this through the lens of free-market economics and conventional monetary and fiscal policies. Not exactly a surprise but it's a recipe for economic collapse. If they don't start accepting that they're going to be managing a deflationary economy then we're all ******.
Now clearly that is not a sustainable situation.
That’s true though, isn’t it. That scheme is ripe for abuse if carried on long term. I’m a big fan of Universal Basic Income, but that wouldn’t be left to companies to decide where state funding is diverted to, this furlough scheme is.
My outlaws live in Spain and can soon have social gatherings of up to ten people. Its was only last Saturday they could go for walk.
TBH, a higher mortality rate amongst iPhone users seems like a small price.
Well, that’s you taken out of my will to inherit the Caribou
Are some on here really suggesting that they won’t use any contact tracing App unless it’s their preferred one??
I assume they will be staying at home then to mitigate any risks?
I’m a big fan of Universal Basic Income, but that wouldn’t be left to companies to decide where state funding is diverted to, this furlough scheme is.
Also a big fan of UBI. It would be much better than the furlough scheme, but it would also be much more expensive. I'm not defending the furlough scheme, which was an emergency policy to prevent millions of job losses. It's done it's job, but needs to be replaced with something more permanent and fairer. I don't think that's what Sunak is getting at though with his comments, he just wants to get rid of it and back to normal. And that's the problem, because there's not going to be any 'getting back to normal' any time soon. They still think we're living in an inflationary economy.
It’s all right though. Hancock has been on the BBC reassuring us that our data will not go to “a big database in the sky”. I like that the guy in charge of all this clearly understands the tech side of things so thoroughly.
You're aware of what the vast majority of people think of when you say "the cloud", right?
He's using appropriate language for intended audience.
My outlaws live in Spain and can soon have social gatherings of up to ten people. Its was only last Saturday they could go for walk.
Are these 10 people you nominate? Seems weird otherwise if an infection rate of between 2-3 is the nightmare scenario with the exponentially increasing infections?
Jamze - I am just asking them now so I'll get back to you on that. They live in Moraira and everyone there seems to be North European ex pats who love socialising so the potential for spread seems huge!
And in other news, my Australian sister in law says take up for their app has been a fifth of the population so far and it is based on a Singapore app. They have just been allowed 2 visitors at a time.
Their app must rely on bluetooth as she keeps getting notifications to keep bluetooth on.
The outlaws have immediately invited a group for food and drinks on their deck (live in apartments) as soon as allowed. They have behaved impeccably throughout a lockdown where only one person could go in a car at one time, etc. Way stricter than ours and enforced properly by the Police.
It's all down to trust, really.
Trust in the likes of Cummings and Johnson...🤥🤥🤔🤔
