Are some on here really suggesting that they won’t use any contact tracing App unless it’s their preferred one??
I personally won't use the UK gov tracing app because I don't believe this serially incompetent government can possibly deliver a transparent, safe, reliable IT solution for such demanding requirements in the time available.
They can't even buy face masks successfully. Why would you trust them with the rushed delivery for a complex IT project that involves mass surveillance?
The highest death toll in Europe
Let’s keep ploughing our own furrow, the rest of the world is looking on in awe.
Well that went well didn't it.
Looking over the last couple of pages it seems that about 90% of contributors are highly dubious about this gov't app.
The government can now point to those of us too sceptical to download the app and accuse us of not being 'all in this together'
Over the weekend I posted about how I thought contact tracing would be the most important thing to get the country moving again. 2 days later I'm posting that I'm unlikely to download a contact tracing app proposed by the government.
Over the weekend I posted about how I thought contact tracing would be the most important thing to get the country moving again. 2 days later I’m posting that I’m unlikely to download a contact tracing app proposed by the government.
Trust.
Bit like Aldi Special Buys.
"When it's gone, it's gone....."
There are other ways to do contact tracing that don't rely on hooky and invasive apps.
I know everyone's still more interested in the actual virus, but this is worth a read. Private debt cancellation to prevent a depression. Now there's a thought 🙂
In terms of general population I suspect most who are able will install it. I likely will. Fundamentally my behaviour at the mo is atypical. What they're going to learn about me from this will, I think, not be that much. I'll certainly be looking at any requested expansion of privileges on any subsequent updates though.
I would certainly enjoy somone more IT literate than me pinning them down at the presser about the issues with iPhones and why they won't take better care of the data though.
Interesting read on the tracing app and how it's pretty much doomed to fail. Read in the comments for the tech firm behind the app - it will not give you any comfort but it is interesting nonetheless.
And note whilst the NHS are fronting the app - as per the article all data will held forever (or 100 years whichever is sooner) not by the NHS but on the NCSC computers. I for one will not be downloading it...
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/05/uk_coronavirus_app/
as per the article all data will held forever (or 100 years whichever is sooner) not by the NHS but on the NCSC computers. I for one will not be downloading it
SO what ? What exactly are they going to store ? Where you went on a particular day once upon a time once in your life ? So ?
For Week 17, In England and Wales only, there were 12024 (11370,12637) excess deaths compared with the same 10-year average. That is 1717 deaths per day. I will run some analyses to compare this with the weekly incidence data.
The cumulative number of excess deaths up to and including Week 17 was 43630 (34194,52610). That is the population of Braintree in Essex and the 243rd largest town in the UK. Worse, there is no evidence that excess deaths peaked in Week 17 in London, and none outside, although the rate per week has slowed.
Hels,
What other ways are you thinking of? Genuine question as this app seems to be toast before it's even got off the ground, so were going to have to look at other methods.
One way of contact tracing is the use of community health workers and associated infrastructure. We don't have that capabillity anymore because it was seen as surplus to requirements under austerity rules.
That's probably why the government abandoned the idea so early on, they simply didnt have the capabillity or resources to adopt contact tracing from the get go.
You would have thought that they'd have seen the error of their ways and begun assembling new teams a couple of months ago, realising how imporant they would be when it came to relaxing the lockdown.
SO what ? What exactly are they going to store ? Where you went on a particular day once upon a time once in your life ? So ?
I'm with Weeksy. If it helps one person to stay alive, someone knowing where I am and if I've had the Virus being stored for 100 years is inconsequential to me, especially considering that thats likely already available from the social media I've used in the past.
Sure=ely its a civil and moral duty to download and used the app.
Inkster - its not my thinking...
https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-test-trace-isolate-support/
Jamze - their answer was that from 11th May bars and restaurants with a terrace can reopen only 50% of tables outddors only. Maximum of 10 people if you have a gathering which is why they are 10 people all together on their deck.
No contact tracing app that they know about.
dazh,
I for one am very interested in information that relates to the effects of the pandemic economically and societally speaking. It's likely we'll be living with the effects of the virus for a long, long time.
I started a thread a while back looking at the effects of the virus beyond the virus itself but it got a little sidetracked The article you point to is exactly the type of thing I had in mind when I started it.
Worse, there is no evidence that excess deaths peaked in Week 17 in London, and none outside, although the rate per week has slowed.
Looking at the graphs of deaths and new cases on Worldometer it's clear that the UK has not reached a well defined peak and started going down the hill the way it happened in other countries. I can only imagine that this is because other countries had a lockdown whereas we had some Etonian mumbling about possibly preferring to not go outside too much.
Danny - thanks for the link.
It's not looking very good, is it?
If it helps one person to stay alive, someone knowing where I am and if I’ve had the Virus being stored for 100 years is inconsequential to me,
That's not the trade-off - it's between some number of lives being saved now and the number of lives lost in the future because the Conservatives gathered the data needed to finally put the last nail into the coffin of democracy in the UK
Sure=ely its a civil and moral duty to download and used the app.
Have a read of The Register link above
"civic and moral duty to download and use the app" yes and it is the civic and moral (not to mention, lawful) duty of government to not collect personal data for undeclared purposes when the same objective - helping contact tracing - could have been achieved without doing so.
“civic and moral duty to download and use the app” yes and it is the civic and moral (not to mention, lawful) duty of government to not collect personal data for undeclared purposes when the same objective – helping contact tracing – could have been achieved without doing so.
This.
I can see there being a strong element of coercion via employers here, though. Something that forces them to force you to have the app so you are able to go back into an office 'safely' or similar.
But I can seriously see myself looking at a 'download' button for hours on end and not wanting to do it. Not with all the things that have happened in the last 5-10 years.
I used to be a believer in the basic 'good' of government too....
I can only imagine that this is because other countries had a lockdown whereas we had some Etonian mumbling about possibly preferring to not go outside too much.
As of yesterday, cases are declining at an (exponential) rate significantly slower than Spain (who are dropping fast). Which country had the hardest lockdown? The peak of excess mortality is likely to be this week. yes you read that correctly. There is a considerable lag and disconnect between COVID deaths, hospital deaths and all deaths, which I will now analyze. I can't see us having that mad rush back to work any day soon.
Is the high UK death rate a consequence of a high % of the population having a co-morbidity? I think something like a 1/3 of the Uk population is clinically obese which seems to be a major factor in those that end up in hospital with covid 19
https://www.wcrf-uk.org/uk/blog/articles/2020/04/obesity-and-coronavirus-covid-19
yes you read that correctly
Thank you so much, oh wise one 🙂
Re. moral duties, you'd have thought that the time at which the public are fundraising to support the NHS wouldn't be the time to slyly privatise more sections; but according to the Guardian that is what is happening: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/may/04/uk-government-using-crisis-to-transfer-nhs-duties-to-private-sector
I'm afraid the track-record and apparent lack of competence of this govt means I don't believe a word they say. I won't be downloading the app unless I am forced to in some way.
I started a thread a while back looking at the effects of the virus beyond the virus itself but it got a little sidetracked
Missed that one 🙂
Seems to me that the indirect effects of the virus are going to cause much more suffering and hardship than the disease itself. I get the obsession with epidemiological data, but I can't help but think the real threat is being ignored or dimissed. I get no sense from the politicians (on either side) that they understand or have any plan to deal with the economic and social fallout.
Way too much war rhetoric if you ask me. Everyone seems to think this is a 'fight' against an enemy which can be won if only we all stiffen our lips and get behind those on the front line. If it is a war then we've already lost, and we need to think about salvaging what's left and rebuilding.
I personally won’t use the UK gov tracing app because I don’t believe this serially incompetent government can possibly deliver a transparent, safe, reliable IT solution for such demanding requirements in the time available.
They can’t even buy face masks successfully. Why would you trust them with the rushed delivery for a complex IT project that involves mass surveillance?
So you don't trust the NHS (NHSX) with proximity contact tracing and think that should be outsourced to private firms. Also you don't trust the NHS with procurement.
There are people who would agree with you.
you’d have thought that the time at which the public are fundraising to support the NHS wouldn’t be the time to slyly privatise more sections
The main narrative on this thread has been how crap all the centralized services are bad and everything is better done privately in a distributed fashion. (German style healthcare, German style freemarket testing, keeping contact tracing and procurement away from the NHS.)
If everyone thinks the way STW does then it seems the perfect time to get as much of the Government controlled Healthcare out of Government hands.
Don’t blame the NHS for government decisions. You seem to be talking about private companies and non-NHS bodies that are just wearing the NHS badge.
that should be outsourced to private firms
Well… it is. That wasn’t his point at all.
Anyway, deaths outside hospitals still rising, as I feared when “past the peak” was the take away message last week.
Well, I reckon the uptake of the app will be poor unless there is some kind of extra coercion. I won't be downloading it unless compelled to do so by law or via some kind of 'back door' like the employers angle I mentioned above.
I guess it will be an interesting case study itself in the balancing of facing a truly existential threat when public trust has been steadily eroded by underhand tactics. When the wolf showed up for real, no one believed in the boy.
Don’t blame the NHS for government decisions. You seem to be talking about private companies and non-NHS bodies that are just wearing the NHS badge.
People are saying they *don't* want NHSX to do the proximity contact tracing.
NHSX is not a non-NHS body:
https://www.nhsx.nhs.uk/
That wasn’t his point at all.
Pretty sure it was. If you don't want the NHS doing proximity contact tracing then who else is there? You're left with the private sector.
I was reading a few articles that matched some thoughts I'd had - namely that the Government will have difficulty getting people out of lockdown. People are quite used to it now, they have had the "People bad! Avoid people! Virus kill! message drummed into them and they will want very clear instructions about how coming out of lockdown will be managed and how they won't be at risk any more. Especially as a lot of people believe the government didn't do a good job at first and have been playing catch up. Also, Boris and co don't seem very good at giving clear instructions.
Earlier today, my girlfriend told me she's not going out the house again until this virus is gone. There's quite a lot to look at there about personal risk (she is in a very low risk group), the fact she can't afford not to have a job and whether or not this virus will ever be "gone" - but that's her thinking.
Though I guess the government will just return to type and pull all the funding for folks and starve them back to work.
So are the same people not wanting to use the app those that strayed outdoors because they didn't believe they should be told what to do/restricted by a conservative government?
Not everything is a conspiracy theory. If you're that scared of the app/OS training you then wait until it appears to be over, dump the phone and get a burner.
For the life of me, I can't see why anyone would want to know where I was a week last Thursday in 20 years time. I'd rather help the cause than pander to political morals toward the people that instructed its recording. I suspect your more in danger of being marketed an embarrassing sex toy through Facebook that of this.
@TiRed so this peak is valid, but you're plotting excess deaths rather than covid deaths? And care homes are having their own peak?
https://twitter.com/ian_a_jones/status/1257638053511913473
So you don’t trust the NHS (NHSX) with proximity contact tracing and think that should be outsourced to private firms. Also you don’t trust the NHS with procurement.
Unfortunately NHSX will not be handling the data, they are commissioning the work but private companies will be administering the servers. There will be mission creep, there will be American export of the data and it will be hacked.
Additionally the procurement process was not put out to competitive tendering it was passed to one of the favoured companies with a nod and a wink
That's a hard pass from me.
So are the same people not wanting to use the app those that strayed outdoors because they didn’t believe they should be told what to do/restricted by a conservative government?
Nope. Well, not in my case.
There is a clear distinction between doing the right thing in the here and now, of your own volition, and voluntarily handing a government of very dubious moral compass the ability to track your movements for evermore.
Is now the time to invest in burner phones then?
For the life of me, I can’t see why anyone would want to know where I was a week last Thursday in 20 years time. I suspect your more in danger of being marketed an embarrassing sex toy through Facebook that of this.
+1
....and the bogeyman who is so interested in which phones I was near in 2020 already have all of my medical records, all of my tax records, all of my education records, and criminal records I may have.
If they really what to know where I've been they even have a police force and an army they can use to track me.
I'll be using any app on offer. it's not perfect but every little helps.
So are the same people not wanting to use the app those that strayed outdoors because they didn’t believe they should be told what to do/restricted by a conservative government?
I might also add that that is exactly the way the government will hope its supporters will frame it for them.
I can put the privacy issues to one side. However the functional issues would appear to mean that the f'ing thing is at best f'ing useless unless you happen to be looking at your phone when you come in to contact with somone.
If they really what to know where I’ve been they even have a police force and an army they can use to track me.
They won't need to if you've just given them the means to do it yourself. That really is the point.
Kryton,
I think the opposite might be the case.
Unfortunately NHSX will not be handling the data, they are commissioning the work but private companies will be administering the servers.
That's what people are asking for, keeping our data away from the Government.
For the life of me, I can’t see why anyone would want to know where I was a week last Thursday in 20 years time.
Indeed not. Nor will it affect you if you go spluttering and wheezing over the carrots in your local Tesco. This sounds like a re-run of the "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to fear" argument.
@weeksy and others who don't mind a company which is a direct descendant of Cambridge Analytica having your entire movement history; where you went, who you met, where you shopped etc - all of which can be determined from the data - then that of course is entirely your decision to make.
The other important fact highlighted by the article on El Reg is that the app won't work anyway as Apple and Google are refusing to let Bluetooth transmit the phone's ID anyway if the app is running in the background. So even if you have the app installed but the phone locked and in your pocket it the app can't do shit anyway.
Typically poorly thought out implementation when there is the makings of a global standard sat on the table.
However the functional issues would appear to mean that the f’ing thing is at best f’ing useless unless you happen to be looking at your phone when you come in to contact with somone.
I can see all sorts of flaws but we're told it worked a treat in South Korea so who knows.
