Apology accepted.
I mean it. And thank you for introducing the concern earlier. I really didn’t see this “app” approach working out the way it has. It’s throughly depressing. In fact, it stinks. There are other routes that would give us a useful tool, without it being so suspiciously useful to likes of the Warner brothers and other chums of Cummings. It really stinks.
What if people who are asked to self isolate for 14 days at a time don't do it? Maybe it will lead to them losing their job or something, or its the third time in two months and they're sick of it?
Will it be enforced with fines or something like that?
From a purely business perspective, if the government isn’t willing to pay their wages, I would ask staff not to sign up.
I honestly didn't know - this isn't my area and TBH I still don't really know if this is something to worry about. Ignoring the original source of my concern (a trusted source via a somewhat unreliable platform, is a fair summary), just because someone is associated with Cummings and his chums doesn't always mean they're bad. But it does make you suspicious and hence why I was asking - odd as it sounds, this is a useful resourse for everything from plumbing to minor surgical procedures! But the deeper you look into this the more worrying it appears.
In general I'm quite conformist so done properly this could be good. OTOH if enough see the link to CA, Cummings, etc., and reject it because of that it loses at least some of the benefit. Why the Gov can't see that and keep feeding them with jobs....they must owe them big style.
Ignore the names… if the data was kept on my phone ‘till requested to submit it, and it is was clearly limited in scope, and the data was then used only by the NHS and other public health bodies, that would ease my concerns. No blank cheques should be written for private companies selected by this or any other government. I would be just as suspicious of a Labour administration asking us to do so.
Friends or acquaintances passing on my mobile number is somewhat different from having a app tracking my movements, contacts, interactions with other "tracked" data subjects etc 24x7...
Oh and by the way geographical location data is considered sensitive...
No. And if that was all that was to happen, then it wouldn’t work anyway. The data stored needs to be able to return who (or at least which device) was involved for this to work.
You don't need need to know any identifier from the person or device for this to work. That's the beauty of the distributed Apple/Google/DP3T approach.
Our NHSX app does the matching process on a central server instead (but still uses the anonymised distributed keys).
Unknown at this point what else they use that central server for.
What about your medical data being made available to a 3rd party with no oversight?
You are assuming that is the motive and/or result.
If it means that we are one step closer to beating this virus, that fewer people will die, that my parents can hug their grandchildren sooner, then yes, I'm willing to put the greater good ahead my concerns and doubts about my own private data.
If this fails because of anti-government paranoia, however justified, I don't want those extra deaths on my conscience.
You don't take part in the app. You don't get a message saying you've been in contact with someone who tested positive. You pass it to a family member who dies alone and scared in ICU. Never mind, you made sure you stuck it to The Man.
Oh and by the way geographical location data is considered sensitive…
Pretty sure now the app doesn't use geolocation data.
That’s the beauty of the distributed Apple/Google/DP3T approach.
Agreed. And, importantly you can go and read and (try to) understand it. But that’s not going to be in use in the UK, is it? Until very recently, I was ready to an unswerving advocate for using an app for contact tracing (ask Jon, sorry again Jon), but will not be installing this black box evolving unbound back door app. No way. I’m surprised it’s even legal… but I suppose it’ll rely on accepting/downloading it to be an opt out from normal rights.
Pretty sure now the app doesn’t use geolocation data.
Yet. Also, trivial to get geolocation tied to one of your contacts to determine your location.
We are all free to make a choice.... for the moment.
Use or capture location data Jamze? Big difference?
I shall keep me tinfoil hat thanks.. this is based upon "evidence" not conjecture.
Use or capture location data Jamze? Big difference?
Neither if the app doesn't have that priv.
Pretty sure now the app doesn’t use geolocation data.
Yet. Also, trivial to get geolocation tied to one of your contacts to determine your location.
So if the app has no location access priv (implemented at the OS level) you think it's trivial to get the location? I'm asking, I don't know.
When I hear the phrase 'checks and ballances' eminating front this government I automatically read it as 'cheques and bank ballances'
I signed up for an app for reporting symptoms, set up by Kings University at the beginning of the outbreak, (my sister who works there put me on to it.) So I'm not averse in principle to becoming part of any scheme.
However for me to sign up to an app like this I would have to be convinced that those operating it have similar principles to mine and this lot don't make the grade I'm afraid.
it’s trivial to get the location?
You misunderstood me. Geo location isn’t needed from you if it can be obtained from someone else known to be in the same place as you. And most people are broadcasting their location near constantly.
Technical specs available for download in PDF too
Some data coming out of Italy regarding excess mortality and startling split between regions
Technical specs available for download in PDF too
Yes, all very interesting. I wish we were adopting such a transparent approach. Now, have you got a link to the technical specs for what we will be asked to use in the UK? Even the preliminary version being used in the Isle of Wight would be worth a read.
Yes, all very interesting. I wish we were adopting such a transparent approach. Now, have you got a link to the technical specs for what we will be asked to use in the UK? Even the preliminary version being used in the Isle of Wight would be worth a read.
It does state here the code will be open. Not aware that's happened yet.
https://www.nhsx.nhs.uk/blogs/digital-contact-tracing-protecting-nhs-and-saving-lives/
It's on Github 😉
You don’t take part in the app. You don’t get a message saying you’ve been in contact with someone who tested positive. You pass it to a family member who dies alone and scared in ICU. Never mind, you made sure you stuck it to The Man.
A totally understandable stance, but for me is directed the wrong way. The government should be asked why, when given the easy path of vendor supported decent privacy did they take the harder, reduced privacy option when they know it will decrease uptake?
The Italian death data is sadly unsurprising, i would be amazed if the same isn't the case with most countries.
The US will likely be particularly bad as people without insurance won't go to hospital unless they absolutely have to and you have to suspect a lot will be too late.
You misunderstood me. Geo location isn’t needed from you if it can be obtained from someone else known to be in the same place as you. And most people are broadcasting their location near constantly.
Still confused, sorry. You don't have my location (app isn't allowed it), but someone else I'm close to using the same app without location access also is somehow broadcasting our location for ukgov to tap into?
I know Google/Apple track location (it's where these charts come from on the briefings showing movements in different settings) but that data is rolled up and anonymised (well, unless I'm suspected of doing something and you have a warrant).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-52529893
The outbreak was first detected at Home Farm independent care home in Portree last week.
The company which runs the home, HC One, said 30 of the home's 34 residents and 27 staff were confirmed to have the virus.
****ing hell!!!
For the non tech savy like me, why would I give a shit if the government have data from my phone?
AA
Complete lack of trust in the Government? That would be my reason .
A totally understandable stance, but for me is directed the wrong way. The government should be asked why, when given the easy path of vendor supported decent privacy did they take the harder, reduced privacy option when they know it will decrease uptake?
- more than that, why are they contracting it to the likes of the people associated with CA, etc.
They either are so stupid they don't see that this will be viewed with massive suspicion (and I'll admit again I don't KNOW if that is justified or not but I know there are smart people on here and that i know IRL who are very sceptical) - resulting in lower uptake.
or
they know but DGAS anyway; is that jobs for the boys or what do they know / are they terrified of?
I try not to be a conspiracy nutjob, and give the benefit of the doubt. On that basis this bunch must be brilliant in what they do that the Gov is prepared to overlook all the perceived downsides compared to going with the Apple-Google version.
For the non tech savy like me, why would I give a shit if the government have data from my phone?
In principle, you shouldn't need to. They have plenty of data on you anyway - HMRC, NHS, DVLA, Local Council. It's who they are giving that data to, and how it is being used. Again, in principle, this should not be an issue. However, as linked to in this thread, there are some questions around this. We know NHSX is circumventing the tender process to award contracts to Dom's mates.
Data used to solve a public heath crisis = good, same data used to ensure the government/the highest bidder wins future elections = not so good.
Complete lack of trust in the Government? That would be my reason
Believe me no one trusts the gov less than me but other than getting bored what would they get?
We know NHSX is circumventing the tender process to award contracts to Dom’s mates.
Do we? Really?? This would be outrageous if true. Is it? All I can find is this kind of thing which looks pretty standard...
https://www.digitalhealth.net/2020/04/nhsx-differs-with-apple-and-google-over-contact-tracing-app/
...and a story just now in the HSJ that the IoW version is still too shonky for the NHS apps store.
Do we? Really?? This would be outrageous if true
Take your pick.
https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/22/palantir-coronavirus-contract-did-not-go-to-competitive-tender/
And
Believe me no one trusts the gov less than me but other than getting bored what would they get?
From most peoples individual point of view, not much. It's all about the big picture as we saw with CA. The data was analysed for patterns and then used to manipulate and exploit events/people.
Good article from Mozilla here:
https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2020/04/29/contact-tracing-governments-and-data/
Take your pick.
blimey. Missed that. Bad alright. More for the eventual inquiries.
91% of the excess mortality registered at the average national level in March 2020 is concentrated in the areas of high spread of the epidemic: 3,271 municipalities, 37 Northern provinces plus Pesaro and Urbino. In all of these provinces, deaths from all causes have more than doubled compared to the 2015-2019 average for the month of March. If we consider the period from February 20th to March 31st, deaths have risen from: 26,218 to 49,351 (+ 23,133); just over the half of this increase (52%) are deaths reported by the Covid-19 Integrated Surveillance System (12,156). Within this group, the most affected provinces by the epidemic recorded three-digit percentage increase of deaths in March 2020, compared to 2015-2019 average: Bergamo (568%), Cremona (391% ), Lodi (371%), Brescia (291%), Piacenza (264%), Parma (208%), Lecco (174%), Pavia (133%), Mantua (122%), Pesaro and Urbino (120% ).
From the linked Istat article above.
For the month of March, Bergamo recorded mortality figures 568% above historical. norms 2015-19 . OMG!!
Still confused, sorry.
Right… let’s remove the technical side to this (but for your own amusement, go and look into how many ways someone’s location can be identified, without installing a single app on their phone/computer) and instead think of it low tech… if from the data captured it is known that 20 people were in close contact at a given time, you could just ask one of those people where they were at that time… and bingo, you know where they all were.
None of this is relevant though, a contact tracing app is useful, and even more useful if location data is included, and I’d be happy for my phone to record both, and submit it when asked (with my agreement) to a database used for the sole purpose of helping stop the spread of this disease. I will not let the people involved in this UK app drag net information from me about my ‘real life’ social contacts on an ongoing basis to be held and interrogated centrally. Let us capture the information, ask us to supply it when useful, keep it within the NHS and public health bodies.
How long will the data be stored for? It'll be huge in no time even if individually it's bits. So my phone has a code for a few hours and rolls on say 6 times a day that needs stored as does the code of anyone who was in contact with my code so time data needs stored and a refer back to both our data to link to numbers. For what 14 rolling days let's say 21 to be safe or 28 to be sure. For 30million phones?
Ouch.
It’ll be huge in no time
Not really.
I’m tempted to compare how may contact points you could store in the same space as a 4K movie… but life is too short.
Technical specs available for download in PDF too
Read some more. So well thought out. You’d need a REALLY good reason not to use it.
AA,
I, like you are non tech savvy. That in itself should give people like us reason to show caution, it's not what the gov't might learn from our information but who they might give it to and what they might do with it.
I'm concerned about my own lack of knowledge, I wasn't aware how information could be misused in relation to Brexit and elections by CA and the like until it was too late.
Before all this stuff was an unknown unknown to me. This time it's an unknown known, I don't know what they might do with the informaction but I know they can do bad things with it.
Technical specs available for download in PDF too
The distributed notifications are pure genius.
All hail the tech giants! They’ve learned how to build trust. Perhaps from past mistakes? The governments that use that will have much greater uptake.
You know what’s weird… this administration is full of people who claim… no pretend to be all anti establishment, and new thinkers, looking to tear down the old ways and rebuild… and then they favour centralised bureaucracy at a time when that call could cost lives. Be that on testing, or using tech to help with contact tracing.
All i know is Dominic will have a massive hard on for this bad boy... the potential to build a virtually complete social interaction map of the majority of the electorate... it is the Holy Grail of targeted/viral messaging.
Knowing which data (subject) to seed your message to (regardless of its truth or otherwise) is priceless. What CA did back in the day was a blunt instrument compared to this (potentially)
I always chuckle when you here the comment "well i have been on Facefriend for years and nothing bad has happened to me" well it did if you didnt want Brexit? Thing is if your not reading clickbait, Daily mail, Tommy Robinson blogs you are qualified out.. you are not a useful idiot therefore you dont get the "messages" you are a useful "marker" in as much you can't be manipulated in the required direction, therefore you are a useful statistical percentage (i.e are we 52% or 48%)
This is not tinfoil/faraday cage stuff, its just good old big data hidden behind "the greater good"
We are providing this "at our expense" to a private organisation that at best has a questionable heritage- they will simply not be able to resist temptation. Then we have the current Government who are going to have one hell of a fight to win the next GE and or get a majority (history tells in times of war and woe the incumbent party rarely gets relected). Will they call upon Dom and his magic data set to save the day?
I'd recommend reading the register article as it has a summary of how the app is going to behave and also points out one or two potential pitfalls.
TL;DR (caveat - in my understanding from mentioned article) no location data. Type of device identified but not actual device other than the 'raffle ticket' mentioned here. You upload data when you want to, old data is not stored forever on your phone - so you're not uploading everything you've ever done when you hit the button.
However minister was unable to state when asked that the data that was uploaded would be destroyed and/or not used/passed on/sold. The reg also notes that there are established techniques for de-anonymising this type of data, but I didn't look in to it.
As others have said, why take this route when other methods would appear to assuage security concerns so much better, and might be less likely to inhibit take up?
The official reason, is so they can ‘adapt’ how the app and data collection is working as they go along. As if that is supposed to reassure us about their ‘take first ask permission later’ approach. I want to know what data I am providing, up front… who will have access to it, up front… and the strict terms of its use, up front. If my phone can notify my contacts* without ever sharing any contact* info with a centralised system, even better. The stuff Apple and Google are providing as a foundation for national apps is very well thought out… use it, or be prepared to have to justify why you have not.
[ *not the people in my address book, to be clear, just people I have been near and virtually anonymously shaken hands with, as we all travel around like fleshy beacons ]
Back to the actual virus, I see it's being reported that retroactive testing has confirmed a case in France on the 27th December, supported by subsequent infection of others (so seems more likely than not to be a correct test result). But also that he hadn't travelled to China so must have contracted it elsewhere. If correct, that changes the timelines a fair bit
Yes, I just read that story from France. In the absence of any other reports from elsewhere - assuming other places must also have double checked older swabs by now - my immediate response was to assume cross contamination.
Though I'd laugh my ass off if Trump's China blaming turned out to be so wrong. Spanish flu from Kansas wasn't it?🤔
BBC News - Coronavirus: France's first known case 'was in December'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52526554
The distributed notifications are pure genius.
All hail the tech giants! They’ve learned how to build trust. Perhaps from past mistakes? The governments that use that will have much greater uptake.
Yep their approach has been well thought out.
Don’t forget they are building it into the OS
I expect the nhsx app will get ‘updates’ if the uptake isn’t big enough and be decentralised.
But with people damaging themselves with competitive clapping I doubt if it’s that hard a sell.
How simple would it be to build a battery chip and Bluetooth device just for this. Worn just like an emergency health thing. Does no more than this contact for health tracking I suppose could have ice info (anonymised). Crucially kept separate from phone and info.
I bet a big tech group could produce a first gen by tomorrow.
