[Closed] What's so good about Apple stuff?

In my company there used to be a fair few people who used their own Macs instead of the company issued Lenovo's but over the last couple of years that's completely stopped and instead anyone wanting to use their own machine now goes with an MS Surface. There were nevery many iPad users because of the O/S limitations which is probably why the Surfaces are popular as they're a much more effective laptop replacement.

I have a cheap Lenovo tablet (a quad-core one with a detachable keyboard) and it's much more useful than my wife's iPad Mini which cost much more but pretty much never gets used (she prefers her Samsung S7 Edge phone for the stuff she used to use the iPad for, and a touch screen W10 Lenovo laptop for everything else).

[i]no slowing down as it gets older,[/i]

Arf!

This has made me think though - why have I got 3 iPads (1,2 & Pro), 2 iPhones (4 & 6S), 2 iPod classics, 1 iPod Touch and 4 iPod Nanos?
Started with the music players, they're just better than anything else I've used. The rest.. ? (Oh, I did get the iPad 1 & 2 and the iPhone 4 for nothing, I suppose)

It will be interesting to see how W10 installations last.. and to see how well things like MS Surface and Dell XPSs last. Will we be here in 8 years time crowing over how old our laptops are?

[quote=zilog6128 ]Don't really agree with Apple stuff being worse value for money given it's quality & longevity

Depends how much having a top of the range machine is worth to you. As mentioned above you can get similar quality in Windows machines - and despite comments above they do still tend to be a bit cheaper for the same spec. But then you'll pay twice as much to get something 20% better, which doesn't seem great VFM to me. The longevity thing has already been debunked (currently typing on a 5yo Lenovo which still works just fine, and TBH is also pretty decent quality).

I'm not a hater - we have an iPad 3 in our house and that also works fine, but then it's not obviously significantly better functionally than my 3yo Android phone. I'm not sure what apps people are using to claim that the iOS version is better, because given my experience of using the "same" apps on both I've not noticed any obvious differences. Meanwhile just check out a thread on buying a s/h iPad for what the real opinions of those owning Apple products is on their longevity (apparently ours is obsolete). Of course reading all that you'll realise that I'm not a big fan of having the newest shiniest kit, so probably not the Apple target market (the iPad was "free").

Depends how much having a top of the range machine is worth to you. As mentioned above you can get similar quality in Windows machines - and despite comments above they do still tend to be a bit cheaper for the same spec. But then you'll pay twice as much to get something 20% better, which doesn't seem great VFM to me.

I didn't think anyone liked apple stuff - owners are forever saying that it only just works

Up until 8 years ago I was in the DOS/Windows camp. A significant birthday and I thought I'd try out an iMac. Fast forward to the present day and we are a Mac household. My original iMac is still going strong, I upgraded the memory and have taken the OS updates but haven't done anything else.

There are some things that I find awkward/irritate me - the Finder being one but equally there were things in Windows that did similar. iTunes is now a pain but mainly because it's trying to do too much, it needs splitting into smaller programs.

It's now several years since I've been on a Windows machine - my last place of work used them for admin stuff but Linux for development, current work is entirely Linux. XP was the last release I've used to any great extent. I've no experience of Windows 10 (nor Win8) but I really didn't get on with Windows 7 despite everyone saying how great it was. It's similar in Linux: I'm fine with the KDE desktop/environment but not the Gnome or Ubuntu ones.

I've an iPad2, there's no way I'm upgrading the OS on it as by all accounts it makes it run like a dog but I'm happy with how it works so why change.

Generally if you build something to a similar spec then you'll get a similar price

I have a few apple devices, and have developed an app for apple (nothing special).

I do like apple products, I suspect the reason they are highly rated is because they are premium devices.

My macbook is brilliant, the touchpad is by far the best one I have used on any laptop, but then even a cheap macbook pro is £1300. For that sort of money, it's super high end Dell territory.

Apple stuff just works.

Apart from when it doesn't.

They look nice, and have a different, but not necessarily better UI. If you are comparing like with like then as far as I can see that about sums it up. I reckon all this stuff about not crashing like Windows and being the only thing for graphic design or whatever is 5+ years out of date.

The other thing you get is potential compatibility problems, and a lot of people I know working in STEM in HE have Macbook Pros running Windows.

I'm not going to slate them but I don't see they're any better than Windows machines really.

Its a bit like Ford vs BMW. Both do the same job, but the BMW is made of better quality parts and will look/perform better than the Ford from a quality perspective in 5 years time.

Neither are infallible.

[quote=whitestone ]It's similar in Linux: I'm fine with the KDE desktop/environment but not the Gnome or Ubuntu ones.

To some extent that's just a familiarity thing - which I think is where a lot of the dislike of the "other" ecosystem comes from (I find Macbooks hard work when I've worked on them, but I've not used them enough to be able to know what the issue/solution is instantly in the same way I often do with Windows). Though the standard Ubuntu desktop (Unity?) does seem to be fairly universally disliked - on the rare occasions I do a full desktop install I'll use vanilla Gnome instead, though usually I use minimalist versions with LXDE.

Of course you're also only looking at the surface there - Ubuntu/Debian vs Fedora/Redhat is a whole other argument!

This whole thread is deeply amusing.

I've gone off Apple since they stopped letting the design team have their signatures inside the casework. Oh, and since they went totally loopy-loo.

removing user serviceable parts etc.

That's a good point actually. A friend of mine had a HDD die in her Mac, and it had to go back to Apple. RTM for a hard drive replacement. Madness.

Its a bit like Ford vs BMW. Both do the same job, but the BMW is made of better quality parts and will look/perform better than the Ford from a quality perspective in 5 years time.

Yep.
[img] [/img]

A low quality, rough looking and underperforming Ford, yesterday.

People conveniently forget, Apple's model is basically "here's your product." You can get a boggo Windows laptop for sub-£200 or you can throw three grand at a gaming rig which will annihilate anything Apple currently produce. You get what you pay for (Apple Tax aside), it's disingenuous to look at something the third of the price and go "well, that's a bit crap compared to an iMac." Of course it is.

God loves a good Apple thread.

He says it's so entertaining and distracting him from doing his Day job.

MacOS really grates aesthetically, now. W10 is classy.

MacOS really grates aesthetically, now. W10 is classy.

Apple owners view of the world does seem differ a lot depending on whether not they've actually tried W10.

Also seems to be an awful lack of choice in Apple land when it comes to hardware. No convertible tablets that run MacOS.

There's nothing good (or at least better) about Apple products per se, and those that argue that there is should really be using an Android or Windows based system.

Arguing about the technical intricacies of a computer or a phone is not cool, it's not "Apple". It's what you do if you're a bit of a social outcast (i.e. a non Apple user, or an IT consultant).

Apple users don't need to worry about engaging their brains, thinking critically and arguing about computer specifications; they're at the coffee house instead, speaking some words at their social friends.

Why bother wasting your positive energy thinking when Apple have already done it for you?

There's already cases of people referring to their home as an "Apple Home", it's frightening to think; the kids aren't even given a choice....and then their grandkids aswell. It's a form of indoctrination.

And this is a look to what the future hopefully holds, when everyone uses Apple and hundreds of pages of internet forum space will be saved for a useful purpose.

Apple owners view of the world does seem differ a lot depending on whether not they've actually tried W10.

There does seem to be a subset of Apple advocates on the forum who take great delight on saying how shit Windows is based on their experience with Windows 98 or, if we're lucky, XP (they're generally easy to spot, they're the ones that think "Windoze" is still funny). Which, y'know, I do understand why they'd jump ship and never look back, I just don't really get why they think nothing's changed in the last two decades and believe their opinion is still relevant. It's akin to me slagging off Apple because of how rubbish System 7 was and how Macs are designed for people who use crayons.

Some people prefer Windows, some Linux, some OSX. And any of those are perfectly fine and admirable choices. But to rag other people's choices and opinions based on something you haven't experienced yourself in years is just a bit dim really.

But to rag other people's choices and opinions based on something you haven't experienced yourself in years is just a bit dim really.

Agreed on that.
I haven't used a PC or Laptop in years, so I can't really pass any opinion about windows10 because I wouldn't even know how change the desktop wallpaper.

But I know I can do everything I need to on what I have, despite the apparently horrendous lack of a headphone socket on my phone 😆
(That I didn't even notice for 2 weeks)

I just bought a second hand MacBook pro so I can use an apple specific software, it's a very nice object, but at the end of the day it's just a non user serviceable decent spec but not bleeding edge laptop, I'm amazed that people spend full price on them. The retina display is pretty good apart from not going very bright and the image retention issue was a surprise and can be a bit annoying. The OS seems a bit basic coming from windows.

The iPad mini I bought my parents is again a nice object, but the OS seems clunky being used to android, and the app store sucks.

Some of you may find Simon Sinek's TEDtalk on 'it starts with why' interesting - has been hugely influential on business strategy and culture recently, I reckon.

Though it's unlikely to answer this conundrum for most of you 😆

It doesn't really bother me.

That said we only have macs in our office for compatability testing.

I build my own PC's for home use, last one lasted me ten years, and still works fine, just built a newone so I can play new games on ultra high settings. I doubt I'll rebuild for another ten years.

The best thing about pc for me is you can build exactly what you want, I don't need an I7, when I can buy an overclockable board and run an i5 at 4.8ghz, saving me a few hundred quid, but i do want 16gb ram, and a fat graphics card.
You just can't do that with macs, so they simply aren't a consideration for me.

I also get that most people don't play games or are not interested in customisation, they just want to go on Facebook and stream music so a mac is fine for that 😉

This was interesting too, they've really dropped the ball but admitted it http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39494785

I don't think Macs can run any VR system as their graphics capability is so poor.

Apple owners view of the world does seem differ a lot depending on whether not they've actually tried W10.

I have an iMac and a Windows 10 touchscreen laptop. Which OS do I prefer using? Apple.

Is that the view of the world I should have?

VR is seriously demanding on graphics hardware, even on PC your looking at throwing in a £600 graphics card if you want to run at reasonable settings /frame rates.

Is that the view of the world I should have?

You should have whatever view you like.

Sorry, bit off topic. I was happy enough with my 3GS but recently it decided that it didn't want to accept the password. I've never changed it and this has stopped me using a great wee phone. Anyone else have this prob?

You should have whatever view you like.

Thanks. So you were not implying that because I use W10 and Apple that I wouldn't still prefer Apple. If not, what was your point?

Just had a Windows 10 'upgrade' to my work Surface Pro - it bricked, resulting in a full-rebuild and lots of lost data. My Macbook Pro and ipad purchased in 2012 - countless upgrades and still working.

^the operating system is just an interface for me, as long as the machine is powerful enough for my needs and can run the software I want and it's customisable, it doesn't matter.

Modern macs are just PC's under the hood in terms of hardware, there's nothing unique about them. It's just the operating system and supported software that makes the difference. And that's down to preference mainly.

So you were not implying that because I use W10 and Apple that I wouldn't still prefer Apple. If not, what was your point?

Point is that you need to be fair in your assessments, which it seems you are. Apple fanbois going on about Windows issues from 2005 is just flippin annoying.

My Macbook Pro and ipad purchased in 2012 - countless upgrades and still working.

Been using Windows update since ooh, 2000 or whatever, when it came out, never had a bricking.

I don't think I've ever bricked a windows machine. I had a graphics card fail once, an nvidia card, but macs use nvidia cards anyway so makes no difference it's just bad luck.

I have an iPad Air; it's fine for most run of the mill tasks, but I find it frustratingly clunky - often for what should be simple things.
I find my cheap Android phone and ageing Nexus tablet far more flexible. I remember the surprise I had when I first linked my PS3 controller to my Nexus.

Point is that you need to be fair in your assessments, which it seems you are. Apple fanbois going on about Windows issues from 2005 is just flippin annoying.

Why does it cost hundreds of pounds extra for 128 gb when I can get a chip for £30?

This times lots....

My loaned iPhone is crap. Can't download any apps as the memory is full. How? The album is empty... No songs, etc.

My Xperia comes with more memory as standard, has a 64gb card that cost nothing and the battery lasts longer than a day.

Apple fanbois going on about Windows issues from 2005 is just flippin annoying.

How about 2017?

http://uk.businessinsider.com/microsoft-windows-10-s-bing-default-edge-web-browser-2017-5?r=US&IR=T
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Can anyone else smell some "Anti-Trust"?

dovebiker - Member
Just had a Windows 10 'upgrade' to my work Surface Pro - it bricked, resulting in a full-rebuild and lots of lost data.

There is no excuse for data loss with the amount of cloud and backup technology available

Totally agree with that. Can't understand how anyone can lose data these days, it's virtually impossible. Maybe half a days worth if you are really unlucky.

So you were not implying that because I use W10 and Apple that I wouldn't still prefer Apple. If not, what was your point?

I didn't have one, it wasn't my point you're replying to.

Just had a Windows 10 'upgrade' to my work Surface Pro - it bricked, resulting in a full-rebuild and lots of lost data.

a) why isn't all your data on the network?
b) why can't you restore from your backups?

Can anyone else smell some "Anti-Trust"?

I've been thinking this for a while TBH. MS do seem to be quietly tending towards "hey, why not use our app to open this instead?" with file associations. I reckon they're gonna get a slap soon.

I love Apple stuff because it basically just works. Am not into tech or gadgets to any extent, therefore love the fact my Mac, iPad and iPhone are all very easy to operate and communicate with each other with no great effort on my part.

We also have a Windows laptop in the house that is just horrible to use. Not very intuitive at all and is constantly doing updates that take forever.

Difference, the "it just works" marketing bullshit was a very successful campaign.

otherwise, mac/pc they are different shades of the same thing.

I've said it many times, the operating system is there to get out your road and allow you to do what you want it to. It's the software that is king. or even the hardware is king if you need beyond that.

Find what you like and use it, neither is better, that is unless what you use isn't available for whatever system. Then you've got a valid reason to prefer one or the other. Otherwise, you are just doing whatever companies advertising from them.

And the whole 'cloud' thing is balls.... you can only access it if you have either wifi or data coverage. Fat lot of good that is if you want to listen to music at the beach in the Algarve or watch a film on the flight.....

cloud

We also have a Windows laptop in the house that is just horrible to use. Not very intuitive at all and is constantly doing updates that take forever.

Always an interesting one as updates are generally released monthly
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/bulletins.aspx
For it to be constantly doing updates you must be delaying them possibly or not turning it on and accepting them perhaps? Or you might not have it on long enough to download the updates and install them? Certainly as a win 10 user the updates are very much a background thing until shutdown about once a month.

Anyway yes cloud, everything I need is local but the lot is in the cloud, means I can do anything offline (I'm offline this week teaching a course but all the material is here, 10 mins in a WiFi hot spot or at the airport lounge tonight and my world is fully synced again. It really is that simple, if your losing data then I'm sorry to say it's probably your fault and your missing one of several incredibly easy methods to keep yourself safe.

Windows Updates were historically always the second Tuesday of the month, aside from emergency critical patches. Not sure offhand whether that's still true but it's certainly not "constantly."

Updates are generally a good thing, and I'm all for mandatory security patches. Conficker gained massive traction on Windows machines despite the vulnerability being patched months previously, largely due to user apathy.

MS have recently moved to a "rollup" patch model. Rather than having 100+ updates on a new installation you've got like three to install. This isn't without problems in itself (having to download 300Mb to patch a zero day means you're likely to be compromised before it completes, for instance), but on the whole it makes life a lot simpler. (Doing a clean install dodges this bullet because it offers to retrieve updates before opening up unfettered Internet access.)

nealglover - Member

I haven't used a PC or Laptop in years, so I can't really pass any opinion about windows10 because I wouldn't even know how change the desktop wallpaper.

Right click on the thing you want to change and follow the instructions.
Is it that different on a Mac?
Last one I used was often different from a PC for the sake of it, which was irritating.

Press windows key, type desktop and then click change background which pops up. Typing stuff into the menu brings any settings up, it's very intuitive these days. I think cortana will do it too

People are prepared to pay a higher price for something that works better and is more desirable from a design perspective

Shame you don't use that logic when when talking about streaming services.

I've always found it quite inane to get excited about a OS.

I generally think they've all got flaws.

Point is that you need to be fair in your assessments, which it seems you are.

Yes, I am a naturally objective person. I like W10 and I think it suits a touchscreen very well. If my laptop wasn't touchscreen it would be a negative when using W10. But then my laptop wasn't cheap and it blows my iMac away in speed as it is all running off SSD (i..e boots up in 3 seconds)

I am happy paying the price for an iMac as I like everything about them but I wouldn't pay the price for a MacBook so each choice it taken objectively based on use, price etc,.

"it just works"

Same applies to my £179 Chrome book, Gmail account and Android phone, but without the slightly creepy "cult" feeling you get for free with apple product

I tried a Nexus, it felt like a toy. Screen colours/gamut/colours were way off and digital painting on it was nigh on impossible. Not very good app support for a visual artist

iPad Air OTOH gets me editing in seconds (with very forgiving viewing angles) and near-perfect calibration/colour. Art apps in abundance. Excellent battery life. I use it extensively as a painting/art reference tool and for photo editing to the same end.

Had it 4/5 years and it still works all day every day. Battery life is still good, about 70-80% on new, will probably fit a new one next year.

Maybe I got lucky who knows? I'm particularly objective as if a screen is off I notice it and cannot work with imaging labs without extensive faff. If someone wants to give me a Windows setup to test I'll gladly remain objective. I don't understand fan/anti-fan mentality. If it works it works, if it doesn't it doesn't. ymmv. If I was just using a tablet to surf/watch vids then am fairly certain that most any tablet would do.

Apple do piss me off with their 'gotcha' ecosystem/proprietary no-USB guff, and getting pics on the iPad (from non-wifi camera) is an unnecessarily slow process for me, but I make this work to my advantage and cull pics carefully. So for me it's idiot-proof, no-fuss, great (best?) screen and best apps. Add the excellent camera on the iPhone (again, accurate colour is king for me) and I have a two-device reference/editing studio at my fingertips.

Looking at going plein-air and hoping to ditch technology to a larger degree as it messes with my head. All internet-enabled tablets/phones are distracting in a way that I feel can be catastrophic. Addiction is largely independent of an operating system.

On the anti-trust thing, I can see where MS is going with this. At the moment no major browsers are available in the windows store. Why? It's not because they aren't allowed, it's because, like a lot of apps, developers just seemingly cannot be bothered. MS are trying to get the whole alignment of desktop, phone and console versions to work but until developers start playing the game this won't happen. So they force them into a corner. If this gives Mozilla, Google, Snapchat, Tinder, Discord and whatever else people want the kick into motion then great. By all accounts apps are supposed to run better than their Win32 equivalents anyway.

i've met a few apple suppliers through work and I've been impressed by the way they manufacture. Some of my windows laptops (read Dell, Lenovo, Sony) do appear to have been designed and bolted together in the dark, whilst for apple it does seem to be well made.

The problem for apple is that they partly advertise themselves on the basis of luxury, which is divisive in itself.

Some of my windows laptops (read Dell, Lenovo, Sony) do appear to have been designed and bolted together in the dark, whilst for apple it does seem to be well made.

That's only really true of their cheap stuff, for which there isn't really an Apple equivalent. Their higher priced models are well made - we've got quite a few Alienware laptops (which are part of Dell now) as well as decent level Lenovo's and they're all well made. The cheap laptops we've had from Dell and HP do, unsuprisingly, feel cheaply made.

Their higher priced models are well made

This is something that rarely gets pointed out - if you're willing to spend similar dosh then there are some well made Windows equivalents - nice screens, metal case etc. When I got this little 13" in 2014 there was a few models that almost swayed me, the HD size being the main deciding factor. The Retina screen at that point was also slightly ahead of the others, probably not so much nowadays.

without the slightly creepy "cult" feeling you get for free with apple product

Where do you get this'll? Do you have to go to Apple store or is it downloadable?
I didn't get mine with my new MacBook Pro.

so my dad broke his iphone, he's retired, a daily mail reader and also a technophobe.

He has phone insurance so they couriered a replacement out to him, he rang me in a flap about deleting stuff etc as they were taking the broken phone.. 2 mins over the phone and he had the phone wiped, 5 minutes later he had the icloud backup installing on his new phone. can't fault them for stuff like that.

@teasel - you know what's said about windows phones, "there's not an app for that"

2 mins over the phone and he had the phone wiped, 5 minutes later he had the icloud backup installing on his new phone. can't fault them for stuff like that.

What's so good about Apple stuff?

it really winds some people up.

He has phone insurance so they couriered a replacement out to him, he rang me in a flap about deleting stuff etc as they were taking the broken phone.. 2 mins over the phone and he had the phone wiped, 5 minutes later he had the icloud backup installing on his new phone. can't fault them for stuff like that.

My daughter had her Samsung S7 Edge stolen recently and got an S8 Edge to replace it and the same thing happened there - everything was recovered from the Cloud backup, no issues at all.

@teasel - you know what's said about windows phones, "there's not an app for that"

I didn't but probably because I don't use a smart phone. Just a plain ol' PC user here - a couple of rMBP 13 and 15. One for pleasure and one for...uh...musical pleasure.

MrSmith - Member

without the slightly creepy "cult" feeling you get for free with apple product

Where do you get this'll? Do you have to go to Apple store or is it downloadable?
I didn't get mine with my new MacBook Pro.

Among my friends, family & colleagues there does seem to be a thing with owners of Apple products that they frequently try to persuade you that Apple is better.
The slightest mention of anything phone or computer related & off they go asking you why you don't have any Apple stuff & telling you that an Apple something or other would be better.....
It doesn't seem to happen with owners of other devices & it very rarely happens with other 'things'.
The same people don't try to persuade me to swap my Vax to a Hoover, or my Seat to a Renault or my Flymo to a Qualcast because that's what they use.....

I'm sure it's not all users - but there is a definite swathe of Apple owners who this applies to....

So on a par with Android then? Waiting for the impressive bit.

I'm sure it's not all users - but there is a definite swathe of Apple owners who this applies to....

I agree to some extent that Apple fanbouys have an inbuilt App of Smugness, but you don't need to download it because it's already built in to the human IOS.

Some of us grew up in offices using Windows software and went through the pain and anguish of IT bods asking us to "turn it on and off again". So, Windows isn't without its inherent weaknesses is it. But since XP came long it improved immensely, a lot of bug organisations still use it and are reluctant to change because it's just reliable and SME easy fixed.

But those same organisations now are turning to Apple for Digital development, and have been for 5-7yeara now.. It's guide exciting being part of the acceptance that in today's world both platforms are working almost alongside each other.

Skim-read the last couple of pages to catch up. Nowt new over previous Apple threads, so I will contribute what I've contributed before 🙂

I use Apple iMac/MacBook and Windows 10 laptops. I like both and both frustrate me from time-to-time, although I confess that "go-slows" are much more common on my 2011(?) iMac than my newer-but-much-cheaper Dell laptop.

The thing is, I'm sat at my 2011 iMac and it still looks great, the keyboard feels great and the trackpad is as fab as it was the first day I used it. I've never had that sense of pleasure-to-use with any Windows machine. Maybe a similar priced "premium" Windows machine would be just as awesome - and I do like the look of the Surface Studio - but Apple have just hooked me in with their marketing, making me believe they have the premium products. It's been said above, but the other thing I love is knowing that if a need a thingy, I just get the Apple thingy, rather than have excessive and confusing choice. For some people that's a bad thing; for me it's a positive. It makes me a bit sad when Apple rumours suggest a product line being cut.

<Bike analogy alert>For similar reasons I'd rather spend big bucks on a Santa Cruz rather than the same amount on a Trek or a Giant, even though the latter might objectively be better bikes</Bike analogy alert>

<Bike analogy alert>For similar reasons I'd rather spend big bucks on a Santa Cruz rather than the same amount on a Trek or a Giant, even though the latter might objectively be better bikes</Bike analogy alert>

Sounds like you're bang in the middle of the Apple target market then.

Personally I'd rather have a high spec Specialized than a mediocre Santa Cruz, but I'm not much of a brand tart!

As has been noted elsewhere, there is a tendency amongst some apple users to start talking about what their chosen platform will do, without the realisation that most other platforms will do exactly the same.

Apple have an extremely effective marketing strategy that clearly works very well though.

without the slightly creepy "cult" feeling you get for free with apple product

Damn you, autocorrect. (-:

It doesn't seem to happen with owners of other devices

Linux.

[img] [/img]

Some of us grew up in offices using Windows software and went through the pain and anguish of IT bods asking us to "turn it on and off again". So, Windows isn't without its inherent weaknesses is it.

But those weaknesses are things of the past.

Should I start judging Apple on MacOS 9? That was flaky, by all accounts. Or when someone recommends a Skoda should I remind them of the pre-VAG ones?

Sounds like you're bang in the middle of the Apple target market then.

lol you're probably right.

Personally I'd rather have a high spec Specialized than a mediocre Santa Cruz, but I'm not much of a brand tart!

The thing is, the mediocre Santa Cruz won't be mediocre. It will still be a great bike and more than enough bike for many, many mountain bikers. Many people will value the brand/image of the SC above the incremental improvements of the objectively better Spesh, which they may not even notice or need. Same thing with Apple and no doubt countless other premium brands who make stuff that isn't objectively better than the competition.

Making a good product is more than just making a good product. A bad product well marketed will always be more successful than a better product badly marketed.

I hate pedi I've text 😆

Can't believe we're actually doing this again.

Can't believe we're actually doing this again.

STW needs an FAQ section

Or when someone recommends a Skoda should I remind them of the pre-VAG ones?

The thing is - irrational as it might be - there are LOADS of people who still relate Skoda to the "bad times". My wife is one of them. It's human nature; unless your preconceived beliefs are regularly challenged they simply will not change. If someone has had a bad experience on Windows followed by a good experience on Apple, the only compelling reasons to reconsider Windows are bad experiences on Apple or money, natch!.

{edit - or a third reason - Windows does something Apple doesn't. I can actually see that happening and winning people back)

Can't believe we're actually doing this again.