[Closed] What's it all about, all this arguing on here? Serious question.

The arguing is not about attention seeking, of course it's not.

When engaged in an argument it's usually due to one of two things:

a) being misconstrued really pisses some people off and
b) if you have considered something and you feel you have a valid point, you want it properly acknowledged and your intellect respected.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind when I argue, that'd be ridiculous - at least when it's an academic point. I just want my input acknowledged and either taken into account or rejected for real reasons.

allright, not posturing maybe, but there's definitely an attention-seeker thing to a lot of those threads, once they reach a certain point. People like attention and to be listened to, some more than others. are you, like, disagreeing with me? 😉

People like attention and to be listened to, some more than others

Yes. Also, the 'alpha male' thing as mentioned in the tags is worthy of consideration. There's definitely that going on every single day on here. But then, surely some people simply are 'leaders', and others content to be led? Indeed, some comments on here, plus the tags, suggests a frustration in some that they can't themselves be someone with more 'status'. This applies in the 'real world' too; I've seen power-struggles in the workplace that make this forum look pretty tame. Yes, it's about jostling for position, vying for attention. Why go on a forum if you [i]don't[/i] want attention?

There's also the odd forum member who likes to come on just to stir up trouble, gain some sort of notoriety; feed off the negative responses from others. One or two of those I think are quite disturbing, and I suspect have issues they could benefit from addressing.

the 'alpha male' thing

Okay, I'll assume the role of the shrink for this thread (clearly gaining alpha status in the process) and ask 'why'? What is lacking in your life outside the forum that drives a need to proove alpha status on here?

Where do you sit in your organisations professionally?
And how do you feel towards your superiors at work?
Have you ever been accused of being too controlling in your personal life?

Good question, Yeti...

I don't separate the forum from any other area where I feel the need to win. I've always been quite competitive, yet strangely not compelled towards competitive sports really other than footy. I like the odd little race against mates on a bike, but I'm not quite so bothered if I don't win there. it's the more intellectual challenges I relish.

Maybe some people are just naturally more driven to 'need' to win than others. But in different areas as well.

It's an interesting question that. I'll have to go away and ponder that one....

I dare say somebody's feeling a winner for posting some of those tags. Well done, you must feel ever so proud of yourself! 😆

The couch is always open Elfin. First session is free. I feel you're making great progress already, many multiples of hours therapy later and I'm sure we'll have you all fixed up and as good as new.

To anyone who is too unsure about their opinion to resort to tagging... I'm running a discounted 5 week nightly session on assertiveness in the SingleTrackWorld, I'll have you ranting in the most incoherent, within post, manner in no time... or your money back.

molgrips - Member

The arguing is not about attention seeking, of course it's not.

When engaged in an argument it's usually due to one of two things:

a) being misconstrued really pisses some people off and
b) if you have considered something and you feel you have a valid point, you want it properly acknowledged and your intellect respected.

I have to say that is a spot on post. I would agree with both of these points.

For me its far more that than either a need to win or any sort of alpha male thing.

I know people think I have to win but thats not what it ia about at all to me.

people are here for different reasons but nobody knows each other's, this is why difficulties arise

[img] [/img]

.

I'd imagine masturbating with a cheesegrater isn't even slightly amusing. Arguing with one on the other hand...

The couch is always open

I would ask you to tell me about my mother, but it might scar me.

People argue for three main reasons:-

1. They're trolling
2. They're stupid
3. They don't realise they're stupid

Personally - I fall into all three at times. I rarely say anything that I totally mean (unless it is actually bike related).

Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide,
No escape from reality.......

We argue cos we can. It's as simple as that.

...so this is the bit where everyone should let it lie....
My money is on TJ or Elfin to post a big long thought out bit next....

ready?..

I'm too tired and I'm going to bed.

But I dare say I'll think of something tomorrow.

I think TJ has been pretty open and honest actually. I don't believe him when he say's it's not about winning though. 😉

ahh, you were gonna type a big long bit, you were! go on go on go on!

All you need to do now is accept that you are going to change nobodies opinion by arguing about it on an internet forum.

utterly wrong! I've had my opinion about several things changed as a result of our arguments, and I cannot be unique. If everyone's positions were thoroughly entrenched there'd be no point arguing 🙂

*muffled noises off-stage*

I agree with you SFB, I've come to learn a few things just by reading some threads. I don't see why ideas or opinions can't be mobile and changeable. It's what makes this site interesting.

[img] [/img]

+1 it can be really rather amusing sometimes... but as a rule its only funny when its obvious to everyone else that someone is trolling another and succeeding in winding them up, watching 2 people argue when they genuinely believe what they're typing is boring.

However as I alluded to above its recognising that I have made my point and walking away I find hard - but I am working on this

very reflective TJ, gibbs would be proud 🙂 +10 internetz for you sir.

I disagree

LOL

SKILZ

😆 first chuckle of the morning, good work 😀

If I continue to be antagonistic towards others, then the potential for happy, positive relationships could be reduced.

very reflective... so why continue to do so? i'm going to be honest here and i hope you dont take too much offence buddy: you can be a really funny guy on this forum, very perceptive at times and seem like you'd be a fun guy to hang around with... but then sometimes you wade into a thread and destroy any fun by appearing to be (intentionally or not) incredibly condescending and a real buzz killington. its a shame because, as the tags on this thread might suggest.. people tend to end up only perceiving you in the negative light as that sticks in minds for longer than the fun stuff.

I find it is often the most (apparently) intelligent people that flatly refuse to listen to another person's point of view or ever accept they might actually be wrong.

😀 excellent post, i might suggest a small alteration (as the most intelligent person on here i feel confident that i'm 1billion percent correct) people who [b]think[/b] they're intelligent will refuse to listen to another person's point of view or ever accept they might actually be wrong... people who [b]know[/b] they're super awesome just keep quiet or troll the hell out of the smaller minds 😀 (its a bit like having a large penis... those with, keep quiet, sit back and smile. Those without will go on and on and on about how big it is, then get angry when challenged.

in the end:

The greatest lesson is you can't win an argument.

Also some people just don't care

now who wants to fight?!

I think a good chin-to-chin argument is good for the soul, it can clear the air, pass the time or provide merryment. I've had the odd 'discussion' where I've been giggling away like a teenage girl becasue I've thought it funny, whilst (it seems) the other person(s) are getting all hysterical and popping corks right left and centre. In reality, I hope they're laughing about it too. 🙂

I've met sooooooo mant people off here I've lost count and 99.9% of the time they're nothing like their internet persona and are really great people in one way or another

The one thing that does baffle me is when people won't let something lie: Sometimes I just shut a thread down and never ever read it again, or I've forgotten all about the insults etc by the next day. But there are those who seem to bear grudges for a very long time....

I like trying to be eloquent and succint.. cos in the real world I am a bumbling.. introverted.. barely coherent.. coarse and vulgar bumpkin.. and I'll also walk away long before any confrontation.. so..
here I get to exercise some bits of me brain that are usually kept in the attic..

TJ and my prescription next time it kicks off:

[img] [/img]

PP - sometimes I am incapable of not re-opening the thread.

Imagine the scene. I'm sat at work bored of my bonce. Read BBC, done facebook, finger hovering over the STW bookmark... must resist.. but the minutes and hours tick by... someone may have replied.. they might be misunderstanding the point.. just a quick check, I won't reply I'll just read..

The odd argument use to be amusing but nearly every thread turns into an argument now usually by the same group.

I just find it all pretty boring now.

I know people think I have to win but thats not what it ia about at all to me.

Thou doth protest too much!

On a serious note I like a good argument like many on here.

My rule is always argue/debate as if you were standing next to the person you are arguing with. I have adhered to this at all times including the idiot (arsenal backwards)
I honestly cant recall a time when I have posted something I would not have said in person.

Surfer - it honestly is not. I really do not see it as a win / lose thing at all. Thats just not how I work.

I think that a lot of what goes on here is not arguing or fighting so much as sophistry. Some people (myself included) enjoy the chance to bounce our ideas and opinions off other similarly inclined people.

If I were to be so opinionated and tenacious in my debating at home, the Mrs and I would be falling out all the time. You are my angst sink. You are my rant buffer.

I often think of this tune when I am waffling away on here and I think most people take it with a similar level of humorous indulgence, despite the odd moment of sheer frustration or rage.

EDIT:

Thats just not how I work.

[Pantomime]Oh yes it is![/Pantomime]

😆

This site provides a valuable social function. For example: I'm particularly glad when people pick me on my bad grammar. If only my teachers had been so thorough. 🙁

In fact: I'm thinking of making my 6 year old submit her homework to the forum before handing it in. That should teach her to spell properly and pay attention to correct use of apostrophe's

I think its definitely an alpha male/insecurity think, no matter how anyone dresses it up. Unless its a wind up.

Binners - also the correct use full stops at the end of sentences?

😉

I'm afraid both my grammar and spelling are absolutely appalling fella. I have a theory I've developed over the years about why I (along with all graphic designers I've ever met) can't spell.

But when recounting it I tend to bore myself to tears, so I won't inflict it on the rest of the world

I think its definitely an alpha male/insecurity think, no matter how anyone dresses it up.

But with so little to gain? It is very rare that anyone concedes defeat, the act of arguing attracts as much negative feedback as the act of being wrong and in the unlikely event that one does 'win' the rewards for it may be a single concessionary post which will be forgotten in moments.

I agree that it is in part a pecking order thing but I reckon that in an innately argumentative place like STW, the one way to gain acceptance is to give as good as one gets. Maybe it is not about besting your rivals so much as being accepted by them?

apostrophe's

Please accept my apologies if it was a deliberate attempt at humour.

🙂

grand idea binners. i've a pile of first certificate compostions here need correcting. anyone?

Terminals that makes sense but the argumentative types don't see it- its an emotional reaction for them and they lack the distance/rationality.

You may be right clinic-al. 😉

I AM RIGHT 😡

I think its definitely an alpha male/insecurity think, no matter how anyone dresses it up

Eventually the alpha male gets old & ripped to shreds by the younger blood though doesn't it? Or creeps off to die in a quiet corner in a pile of shit & pool of piss.....

This is one of the aspects that really annoys me. it is not a dominance game to me, it is not

an alpha male/insecurity think, no matter how anyone dresses it up.

That is not my motivation at all. I know it is for some and I know people do not understand this. But why can people not accept what I say?

What molgrips said is far closer to the point for me.

When engaged in an argument it's usually due to one of two things:

a) being misconstrued really pisses some people off and
b) if you have considered something and you feel you have a valid point, you want it properly acknowledged and your intellect respected.

Now clearly for some it is dominance games - but there are some folk on here who lack the ability to understand that some folk work differently and thus as they don't understand the difference they don't believe it is there.
Edit - I have no desire to dominate, I want to be heard and understood.

The only time I'll argue is when someone is being a c0ck.
And the only 2 things that annoy me enough to think someone is a c0ck is
1. Responses which suggest the thread shouldn't have been started eg. yawn, wgaf, etc. (Leave the thread blank if that's what you think.)
2. Overly politically correct responses. Are you [i]really[/i] like that in real life!!?

Otherwise its all a bit pointless arguing with people who are not going to change their minds (eg. TJ on helmets). And this is just something to distract myself from work/tv.

Hence my t-shirt
[IMG] [/IMG]

Only you TJ...
😛

Aaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwww. Poor old TJ. Its all just a cry for help.

Do you need a hug? 🙂

s'all about respect really isn't it..?

not the domineering alpha respect that the passive aggressives and closet tories associate with..
just good old mutual respect and understanding..

1. Responses which suggest the thread shouldn't have been started eg. yawn, wgaf, etc. (Leave the thread blank if that's what you think.)

+1

It's when someone wants [i]soooo badly[/i] to look clever but they are actually too dense to think of something witty to say

Exactly - to me it's the equivalent of walking past a table of strangers in a pub where a conversation has just started, stopping, turning to them and saying "Who gives a f**?"
And nobody would do that.

walking past a table of strangers in a pub where a conversation has just started, stopping, turning to them and saying "Who gives a f**?"
And nobody would do that.

😈

another thing to add to my "things i must do to annoy younger people when i'm old" list! along with paying for everything in the smallest denomination of coins possible and pretending to be deaf when it suits me.

but yeah... +1

And nobody would do that

you've not been for a drink in my local...

Ok, nobody [u]ON STW[/u] would do that!! 🙂

TJ why are you so bothered about people accepting what you say or not?

I love you all.

😀

Cynic al - its just frustrating.

For example on this thread. I stated it is not dominance games with me. Now only one person knows the truth about my motivations is me that is me. However I am clearly disbelieved by some and so effectively I am called a liar and also I get mocked. Frustrating indeed. I hate being called a liar.

People like you Al are so tied up in proving your dominance that you don't realise that we are not all like that. I am content within myself. I have no need to prove or show my dominance over others.

Thus all your interactions with me are filtered thru your mistaken belief that it is all about dominance games with me thus you consistently misunderstand me by your lack of understanding of my motives.I counted 9 snide putdowns from you to me in a week posted on here.

Remember the first time we met to go for a ride? You sprinted off into the distance to " make a point" that you were faster than me and I was slow. You have done this sort of thing to me many times and its only recently that I have realised it all about dominance and you think mistakenly that I am being competitive with you.

Julie will not go out on the bike now if you will be there as a result.
I find it very difficult to converse with you on the forum. I have only posted this long speil in the hope you might glean some understanding. I will not discuss this any further.

TandemJeremy - Member
Cynic al - its just frustrating.

For example on this thread. I stated it is not dominance games with me. Now only one person knows the truth about my motivations is me that is me. However I am clearly disbelieved by some and so effectively I am called a liar and also I get mocked. Frustrating indeed. I hate being called a liar.

People like you Al are so tied up in proving your dominance that you don't realise that we are not all like that. I am content within myself. I have no need to prove or show my dominance over others.

Thus all your interactions with me are filtered thru your mistaken belief that it is all about dominance games with me thus you consistently misunderstand me by your lack of understanding of my motives.I counted 9 snide putdowns from you to me in a week posted on here.

Remember the first time we met to go for a ride? You sprinted off into the distance to " make a point" that you were faster than me and I was slow. You have done this sort of thing to me many times and its only recently that I have realised it all about dominance and you think mistakenly that I am being competitive with you.

Julie will not go out on the bike now if you will be there as a result.
I find it very difficult to converse with you on the forum. I have only posted this long speil in the hope you might glean some understanding. I will not discuss this any further.

Hmm - that seems like paranoia to me...

Only one person could make this thread about arguments a personal argument...

C'mon TJ, give it up for a minute, take a step back and chill.

I've pretty much given up trying to have a proper discussion on here after finding that I was gradually turning into TJ 🙂 (no offence meant, BTW)

There are just too many different types of people, all with their own agendas for any kind of rational debate to take place. I just don't think it's possible, due to the very nature of the place.

Personally, I think this place would be massively improved by a limit on the number of posts/characters a week that individuals could post, but of course this would reduce throughput/advertising revenue so can't happen.

I admire SFB for his dedication to deliberately missing the point entirely, but appart from molgrips, barnsleymitch and a couple of others, it's just not worth trying to be sensible. I'm going to try and embrace my inner idiot from now on and see how that goes. 😀

The only things that still tempt me to get serious any more are the misogynists, the bullies and the relentlessly cynical non-entities that lurk on here like a turd on your favourite trail.

I miss the amusing trolling. The 'seagulling' thread was a particular favourite.

There are those with whom I will discuss matters on STW, comprising probably 95% of the population.

Others, unfortunately, are just hard work. Overly pedantic, utterly convinced about their own position, and quite unprepared to listen. I'm amazed that they managed to type at all, so firmly wedged are their fingers in their ears. I just don't want to engage with these people, so I don't; there's no point.

I'm not sure that I argue with anyone on here, though I accept that from time to time I'll give someone a poke. As said by someone earlier, my yardstick is whether I'd be prepared to say something to someone's face; if not, I'll not post it here.

[i]I admire SFB for his dedication to deliberately missing the point entirely[/i]

me too 🙂

MF - responding to direct questions.

Druidh - its not just paranoia. Want to know more then you have my email. I do know its not malicious from Al but is based around his misconception of my motives.

And with that - I am out of here. I am tired of the childish unpleasantness and this thread has crystallised a few things for me.

I'm going to try and embrace my inner idiot from now on and see how that goes

Welcome to my church!

TJ - for what it's worth I've never thought you to be motivated by forum domination. I read your posts and believe they're written by someone who passionately believes what they type, is sometimes hell bent on ensuring they're understood, but not deliberately antagonistic.

Thank you TSY!

very reflective... so why continue to do so?

Good question. One I'm hoping to find some sort of 'answer' for, with this thread.

i'm going to be honest here and i hope you dont take too much offence buddy: you can be a really funny guy on this forum, very perceptive at times and seem like you'd be a fun guy to hang around with... but then sometimes you wade into a thread and destroy any fun by appearing to be (intentionally or not) incredibly condescending and a real buzz killington. its a shame because, as the tags on this thread might suggest.. people tend to end up only perceiving you in the negative light as that sticks in minds for longer than the fun stuff.

Fair enough. But in my 'defence', I will say that there are certain people on here who really seem to have taken a dislike to me, which I think is pretty sad, and like to 'bait' me at any opportunity. As is evident in some of those tags above.

Thing is, I do happen t come from a different background and set of circumstances from some folk on here, and as a result may have differening views to the 'norm' that some people think is the 'status quo'. I ruffle a few feathers. Doesn't make me wrong. So, when it comes to arguments, I don't see why I shouldn't put my point of view across like anyone else.

Am I like that in real life? Yep. I'll speak out if I don't think something's right. I won't sit there with the rest of the sheep, thinking yet not saying. I'll voice my opinions. I accept this may get me into confrontations, but I'm prepared for that. I think it's important to stand up for what you believe in.

Arguing on here is like a sport; you need to understand the 'rules' inside out, and make sure you bring your best game. Always back yourself up with facts/evidence, or else you'll look a fool.

Many times, I've got one over an 'opponent', and they've resorted to insults and abuse. At that stage, I know I've won. Then, it's simply a fun game to humiliate them further, and yes, I do enjoy winding people up. I am more aware than anyone, that I may have 'issues' that need resolving. But I'm not ashamed of that; that's just who I am. Whilst a certain amount of compromise is necessary to be able to exist comfortably in a society, I don't believe in betraying your principles and moral beliefs. If someone else doesn't like that, then tough, I can't help that. In that sense, I sort of understand what TJ is trying to say.

Does any of it really matter?

I'd say it does, for me at least. STW has been a great resource for meeting others and forming new and fruitful relationships. Isn't that the whole point? I don't want to go on rides where people actively avoid me because we don't 'get on' on here, that's just silly. So, if there's anything I can do to become a better person, then I think it's a duty to look at that, and perhaps act on any issues that may be apparent.

But it's also a forum where respect, empathy and understanding are vitally important, hence this discussion.

To me, most folk on here I'd be happy to meet. Some, I'd love to meet. But only one or two would I avoid, as I suspect most others would too.

That said, an STW London Xmas drinks evening needs sorting soon.... 🙂

I don't like arguing, and most of the time it's a waste of time, but so often people on here spout utter nonsense and should be corrected so people who may be less knowledgable don't get confused and end up fitting something silly.

good honest answer elfin 🙂

and if it matters TJ, i'm with TSY on:

I've never thought you to be motivated by forum domination. I read your posts and believe they're written by someone who passionately believes what they type, is sometimes hell bent on ensuring they're understood, but not deliberately antagonistic.

Thing is, I do happen t come from a different background and set of circumstances from some folk on here, and as a result may have differening views to the 'norm' that some people think is the 'status quo'. I ruffle a few feathers. Doesn't make me wrong. So, when it comes to arguments, I don't see why I shouldn't put my point of view across like anyone else.

I have no knowledge of your background or circumstances. As and when we manage a London STW beer & curry evening, I'd be happy to buy you a pint.

But don't think that you're that different from anyone else here; you don't have a clue about my background, either. Where I've come from, how I got here.

That's the beauty of the internet, I suppose; the ability to discuss without much of the prejudice one might normally experience. I have no idea whether the people I 'meet' on STW are able-bodied or disabled, straight/gay/undecided, brown/yellow/black/white, male/female.......the quality of the argument is the key.

What angers me are those who hold themselves out as an expert and are just plain wrong. An opinion is fine, just call it out as such; stating an opinion as fact is bound to provoke arguments.

+1 phil

I do happen t come from a different background and set of circumstances from some folk on here

Come on Fred. Fess up. You're an alien aren't you. I know your game sunshine. You want nothing less than total global domination and to enslave the entire human population. And you intend to achieve that by capturing one particularly petty, pedantic and moany part of the internet at a time

I'm right aren't i? 😉

Binners - you miss on crucial aspect of his strategy, the pyramid effect. As he slowly converts us one by one we can take his message to other forums.
I've been copying and pasting Elfin's posts and replicating the word for sometime now... just check out SafetyPin on Mumsnet.

Most arguements on here end up between the usual suspects battering each other with endless google facts to ensure we all know they are right. Some folk get sucked into these threads for brief contributions, I think usually on the grounds the may actually care about the subject being argued or some other personal investment in the debate. But they usually seem to pull out when they realise there are just a polarised few that become deeply entrenched in a narrow view. As the nature of a lot of things discussed are quite complex, an overall win on a wide and complex debate is not possible so the views becomes more narrow as the debate goes on, as any compromise would not help them win. As such any useful debate becomes strangled and the threads just tend to fizzle out as people see this.

I like how this thread has turned into one big argu...

You lot are right sad people indeed.

Try riding a bike 😆

a what?

A bicycle? (so I'm told)

TJ I'm sorry you feel that way and I'm sorry you won't discuss it as your post contains errors & ironic assumptions - eg. I don't consider you a liar, and I ride at my own pace...and in our last disagreement 2 posters were saying I was right but according to you I was not.

I could go on...

But it's also a forum where respect, empathy and understanding are vitally important, hence this discussion.

Oh, DO stop talking bollocks, dear boy...

pmsl that last tag 'rutting for nerds' 😆

my dick is bigger than yours and I know how to use it, where as my gran taught you lots of bad habits.

Al - on the previous page you state that you don't believe me.
On that ride you said you sprinted off to make a point that you were quicker than me

If you want to discuss it email me.

[img] [/img]

I'd have to say I tend to stand with TeeJ politically with most of his posts. But I'll tell you what, I admire his tenacity hugely. I just don't have anywhere near enough motivation or energy or will to fight the fight like TeeJ does. I wish I did sometimes, because there are few who will constantly stand up for themselves in the face of personal abuse like he does. Some of the threads in which he becomes embroiled are tantamount to bullying. Yet, he'll keep tipping away. And that's what pisses the bullies off.

Whenever someone posts something personal or is anguished, TeeJ always replies with level headedness and compassion. He never takes the piss out of anyone and can take a joke. This forum would be all the worse without him (as well as taking a massive swing to the right 🙂 )

He could learn to walk away a bit more though and not rise to the baiting.

bInners is up on points for creativity. respect.

People take this forum, or themselves too seriously sometimes.

Having read none of the replies to the OP on this thread but wanting my two pennies worth I can honestly say that I really think you argumentative lot seriously need to get laid a hellavalot more than you currently are. Then you would be less grumpy. That is a proffessional opinion btw. 🙂 Happy arguing

I've just read this thread through for the first time and it's been a fascinating and interesting read, and I'd like to give a big thank you to elfin for starting it. I'm not going to contribute anything much, there are those on here who could argue me into oblivion, I'm nowhere near well educated enough to really get involved with many of the topics, especially when politics are involved, but I would like to say, as someone who started on here back in 2003, this is the [i]only[/i] forum I contribute to, and I find it endlessly interesting and entertaining, and I wouldn't want to change the way STW functions for the world.
And whoever put up the tag about elfinsafety being condescending quite obviously isn't bright enough to understand the meaning of the word; there have not been any condescending posts that I've noticed at all.
Elfin, should I manage to get up to that there London Village sometime, I should be delighted to meet up for a beer or two. It's a bit of a treck from over here in Wiltshire, but I'll try to get over sometime.
It's now 1:48am, time I went to bed. Nighty night.