You lot do seem quite interested in my colouring in for some reason. You’re just jealous because you could never keep your felt tips between the big black lines, aren’t you? It’s quite literally an art form
And well-remunerated? You betcha comrade! This country is just full of graphic designers and illustrators musing over the specs of their new Range Rovers. The trouble is the garage space with all the Ferrari’s.
Back on topic though: glad to see that the Brexit you wanted is all you hoped for. It is all that you hoped for, right? It sure looks like a socialist utopia to me
Back on topic though: glad to see that the Brexit.....
Yeah but that's not the topic. The topic is P&O's reprehensible behaviour which has nothing to do with brexit.
If you are keen to discuss brexit there is a thread dedicated to the subject.
which has nothing to do with brexit.
This has EVERYTHING to do with Brexit. This is quite literally the blueprint for future employer/employee realationships in Brexit Britain.
This is literally what ‘Britannia Unchained’ Brexit was about
The owners of P&O are busy setting up Freeports on behalf of a Tory government, so don’t expect any sanctions from their partners in establishing the UK as the money laundering capital of the world (don’t mention the war!)
And the best thing about it is that they got a bunch of lefties to vote for the greatest assault on workers rights this country has ever seen, and you lot - socialists, right? - are on this thread still defending it now
Useful idiots
Apparently binners there's some weird lenticular clouds tonight, why don't you go outside and yell at them?
I would doubt that the owners have said, look, Brexit.. lets boot everyone out . But they will have looked at softened labour laws, or so the impression is given, and hoped to take advantage. I'd be curious why, but I guess they're hoping to get rid of all the accessory costs that come with perm employees, and then go to contract as they can cut out rubbish like pensions and sick pay, and easily boot them out when the options there to get very cheap staff from other countries.
I would guess the owners are out to maximise the dividend and then run P and O into the ground till it collapses
I regularly throw my shoes at the sky to protest about clouds
Doesn’t change anything, comrade
This has EVERYTHING to do with Brexit
Evidence for this claim? Preferably links to reliable sources rather than primary school memes.
I would agree it has a lot to do with having a hard right bunch of lunatics in charge of the UK but then I would also suggest that possibly those lunatics were helped by the useful idiots ranting and raving about Corbyn and coming out with absolutely hilarious comments about allotments whilst saying anyone who supports Corbyn was a sixth former might have been useful idiots for the hard right.
You can try and slice it any way you like but the bottom line is that when it comes to Brexit ‘The Left’ we’re absolutely aligned with the Faragist right
What we’ve seen with the sacking of 800 P&O staff is the future of employment rights in the UK. It’s the inevitable direction of travel with the establishment of the UK as the ‘offshore’ centre of the world as it races to the bottom as Singapore-on-sea. Freeport’s are just centres for international tax evasion and money laundering. Have a look which company is leading the charge on behalf of their Brexiteer mates in the Tory party. They never gave a monkeys about the ferries anyway, it’s all about the ports, soon to be ‘Freeport’s’
Have a read of No Logo by Naomi Klein to see how these Freeport’s or ‘Export Processing Zones’ pan out once established. It’s not pretty.
And all this has been enabled and voted for by ‘The Left’
Like I said: useful idiots, if I’m being diplomatic
Absolute ****ing mugs, if I’m not
Back on topic though: glad to see that the Brexit you wanted is all you hoped for. It is all that you hoped for, right? It sure looks like a socialist utopia to me
Sigh. I see you're still incapable of admitting that your tedious rant was wide of the mark. But we all know how this goes: give it a while and you'll deny ever having said it. I'm not sure if you're dishonest or just easily confused.
I’m permanently befuddled. Does that help?
So how’s your socialist utopia, free from the tyranny of the EU working out for you? Maybe ask any of the 800 sacked P&O workers how it’s working out for them? And all the thousands that will inevitably follow now that this is the new normal
I’m permanently befuddled. Does that help?
So how’s your socialist utopia, free from the tyranny of the EU working out for you?
I'd try taking more water with it.
Maybe ask any of the 800 sacked P&O workers how it’s working out for them?
I don't think you care at all about them. They're just a vehicle for your predictable rants, which reliably fail to engage with trivialities like truth.
I don’t think you care at all about them
Oh… did I forget to express my solidarity with them via Twitter?
Maybe I should start an online petition and share it on Facebook?
I do apologise for for my insufficient dedication to virtue signalling
Oh… did I forget to express my solidarity with them via Twitter?
Really? You havent shared some absolutely hilarious screenshot? I am... disappointed.
I do apologise for for my insufficient dedication to virtue signalling
Carry on like that and people might start to think that you don't argue in good faith.
I would agree it has a lot to do with having a hard right bunch of lunatics in charge of the UK
That is Brexit. You just haven’t accepted it yet.
I’m permanently befuddled.
I'm not surprised. Yesterday the Guardian, which I know you hold with the same reverence as some do the Bible, had a lengthy editorial on the issue of the 800 sacked P&O employees. Nowhere did they blame brexit for what they claimed was "capitalism’s unacceptable face".
You must have been devastated and confused when you realised that they weren't blaming brexit.
That is Brexit. You just haven’t accepted it yet.
Actually it isnt since brexit was a symptom not the cause but heyho who am I to argue with a political expert like you.
Carry on like that and people might start to think that you don’t argue in good faith.
It is fascinating how often Binners repeats the hard right attack lines.
By pointing out how often recently the aims of the ‘hard right’ seem totally indistinguishable from those of ‘The Left’?
Righto….
If you go far enough in either direction, you meet in the middle around the other side. As you lot constantly demonstrate.
What mystifies me is what you get out of it? It’s obvious what the hard right get out of it. I’m just baffled as to why you lot keep facilitating it. I’m sure the 800 sacked P&O workers are wondering that too
Apart from the solidarity expressed on Twitter. I’m sure that was a great comfort
Thoughts and prayers…
I’m just baffled as to why you lot keep facilitating it. I’m sure the 800 sacked P&O workers are too
Apart from the solidarity expressed on Twitter. I’m sure that was a great comfort
How many of those 800 sacked P&O workers do you think share your opinion?
How much comfort do you think hearing you blaming brexit and lefties would bring them?
You voted for it. You tell me.
You seem to have misunderstood the question binners. I know you said that you are permanently befuddled so I'll try to repeat it in a more direct manner.
The question was how many of the 800 sacked P&O employees, which you care passionately about, share your view that it's all the fault of brexit and lefties?
The ones with anything between their ears?
I don’t know how many share your viewpoint and thus actively enabled a far right coup
How’s Lexit going? Come up with any benefits yet?
A 17% decline in trucks through Dover between 2017 and 2021
This isn't really to do with trade with the UK, it's more about Irish hauliers taking a direct ferry route to France rather than pounding down UK roads to Dover.
The new ferry routes have benefitted Irish ports, but that's about it. The journey takes longer, is more frequently disrupted by bad weather and because of the imbalance in trade between Europe and Ireland frequently results in expensive-to-run lorries returning empty.
A lorry driving from Wales to Dover will add approximately zero to the UK economy apart from ports and ferries, which is the discussion here.
Is it because of Brexit? Lower numbers of lorries certainly is
Of that 17% you attribute some to route changes but not all. I suggest the main impact is Brexit as the number corresponds pretty well to the drop in trade which depending on which figure you take and for what period is pretty close. For example:
https://obr.uk/box/the-initial-impact-of-brexit-on-uk-trade-with-the-eu/
I’m sure the 800 sacked P&O workers are wondering that too
They might wonder why some internet nobody is using them to create fake attack lines for his usual targets. Not a nice thing to do of course, but unsurprising.
The only reason i mentioned Brexit earlier in this thread was regarding that the government should use some of those 'new' independent from the EU abilities to clamp down on P&O, as this could be the first of many, and it'll be a real telling point about this government, are they in for the old pals network, or actually using brexit where it could actually bring benefit.
Of that 17% you attribute some to route changes but not all
There's a connection. Pre-Brexit those Irish hauliers would have run a return load from Europe to the UK to avoid an empty truck, which is much less likely now. Brexit hasn't just affected the UK
some of those ‘new’ independent from the EU abilities to clamp down on P&O
I didn't think that UK legislation had been changed from the EU version yet, isn't it part of the agreement?
Apologies if I'm repeating what's been said already
Apols if already mentioned, but Irish Ferries did this many years ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2005/dec/01/g2
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/dublin-port-staff-refuse-to-handle-irish-ferries-ships-1.1185536
Despite the protests they ultimately achieved their aim, if you travel on one of their ships with the exception of a few senior crew, all the staff are eastern European. IF is doing pretty well considering, the Irish public has moved on and still uses them consistently, they have invested in new ships and new routes inc dover - calais.
EU country, EU business & EU laws, and they got away with it. Brexit might have worsened the financial situation for P&O but it is the lack of political will and lax application of workers legislation that will see this through.
EU country, EU business & EU laws, and they got away with it.
Yep, I imagine the problem is the now-ubiquitous habit of registering ships under flags of countries with little or no regulation, oversight, or crucially, tax and then driving them around making money at the expense of the employees.
Fire and rehire took place in many forms over Covid and I don't remember there being much outrage about it then.
Brexit might have worsened the financial situation for P&O......
According to the Guardian editorial of a couple of days ago P&O's claim that the sacking of 800 crew and their replacement with agency staff was necessary to remain viable "does not stack up". Quote :
The ferry operator’s chief executive, Peter Hebblethwaite, its third in three years, said the company had to sack workers and replace them with cheaper crew to remain viable. This does not stack up. P&O’s owner DP World, the state-owned ports operator, was flush with cash and could afford to pay sailors properly. This month DP World announced bumper profits of $896m (£751m) in 2021, up from $846m in 2020.
As far as I am aware at no time has P&O blamed the affect of brexit for the their actions. And as a staunchly pro-Remain newspaper you can be certain that the Guardian would be the first to point out any connection with brexit.
They might wonder why some internet nobody is using them to create fake attack lines for his usual targets. Not a nice thing to do of course, but unsurprising.
Have you ever heard binners speak kindly of RMT members? I believe that he despises them as much as a Daily Mail columnist does.
Just because the Guardian doesn’t draw a connection to Brexit doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
The gov knew about the terminations ahead of time and did nothing to stop them. Even aided them.
U.K. employment rights have already been eroded. Cheap overseas labour have taken those roles at P&O previously filled by U.K. staff.
Freight rates are down on British routes.
These are all Brexit dividends.
Someone asked the nationality of the replacements, Columbian according to Les Echos:
Ils seront remplacés par des Colombiens et des intérimaires, déjà recrutés par la compagnie, afin de réduire de 50 % la masse salariale, selon les sources syndicales, furieuses de ce procédé.
DP World might be profitable, P&O ferries is no longer. Put yourself in the DP world CEO's shoes Eernie, what would you do? I'd find a way of making P&O profitable, sell it, asset strip or redploy the boats.
The Guardian article ignores P&O ferries' financial situation. I assume you're refering to this uniquely worker rights orientated pience - poor jounalism, it ignores the bigger picture.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/18/po-ferries-sackings-brexit-uk-eu-employment-law
As far as I am aware at no time has P&O blamed the affect of brexit for the their actions
If I was hoping to get an easy ride from the government for any questionable employment practices I wouldn't be blaming Brexit either. And whilst I don't have knowledge of the inner working of DP world I doubt that propping up loss making parts of their organisation is a viable long term plan for them.
If you re-read my post you'll see that I am not blaming Brexit for this, in fact the analogy I shared proves quite the opposite, but the financial implications of Brexit (or even CV19 for that matter) will undoubtedly have been part of their decision making process. It seems daft to ignore that reality.
EU country, EU business & EU laws, and they got away with it. Brexit might have worsened the financial situation for P&O but it is the lack of political will and lax application of workers legislation that will see this through.
Don't be coming round here with your "facts" and "simple logic" - we need Monty Python screenshots.
Don’t be coming round here with your “facts” and “simple logic” – we need Monty Python screenshots.
too stressful, could pick the wrong meme, how about this?
The Sunday Times has a good article on the financial pressure faced by P&O.
It attributes much of the pressure to competition on more routes by Irish Ferries - who did the same fire / rehire foreign crew in 2005:
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/30/transport.uk
On comparable routes, the wage bill savings from Irish Ferries use of staff on low wage maritime contracts ($2-3 an hour) means they can undercut P&O’s operating costs by around 25-35%.
So for all the “if we had been in the EU this wouldn’t have happened” the reality is that it’s competition from an EU ferry firm that sacked its workers some years ago that has resulted in the collapse in P&O’s profitability - with the company making three years of increasing losses starting in 2019 before Brexit negotiations were even concluded.
Other articles also confirm:
- the employment contracts are registered in Jersey
- the trading entity can legally contract with a Swiss registered firm for the supply of maritime staff
Ergo, P&O have acted in a brutal manner but likely legal manner to save business in the face of “unfair” competition from an EU registered competitor that pays its own crew $2-3 an hour.
“capitalism’s unacceptable face”
That is Brexit. You just haven’t accepted it yet. Looking forward to these same employers working with the government in the light regulation free ports they have planned?
starting in 2019 before Brexit negotiations were even concluded
Imagine if trade was already being reorganised before we left the EU, because, well, it wasn’t a secret that we were leaving, or that we weren’t seeking a close deal that would reduce the impact of us leaving on trade. In fact, all the talking up of “no deal” meant Ireland, The Netherlands and France in particular were preparing for the absolute worst case scenario.
So despite brexit promising to protect British jobs against EU rules this has been allowed to happen? I consider that a massive brexit failing.
British jobs
"British jobs" what do you mean British jobs?
As a point of detail (and regardless of the legality of the dismissal), it's definitely redundancy as they are not replacing the sacked staff, they are buying in this service from a subcontractor.
All the tories with their crocodile tears - and those sho voted for them - can **** right off. This is precisely what the tory vision is, there's never been any ambiguity about it. Making it easier to fire people is a key goal of theirs.
“British jobs” what do you mean British jobs?
Jobs in Great Britain undertaken by its citizens? As opposed to jobs in Great Britain undertaken by foreigners or jobs outside Great Britain?
The time to clarify this would have been before brexit I guess, but I voted remain so hadn't believed the promises regardless.
it’s definitely redundancy as they are not replacing the sacked staff, they are buying in this service from a subcontractor.
It is definitively NOT redundancy as the work being done and the numbers of jobs is not changing; it's a mass dismissal.
The fact that a subcontractor is involved is irrelevant.
Refer to ACAS website for definition and explanation of redundancy.
