i worked for P&O a long time ago. minimum 14 hours a day if the ship was running on time, longer of it wasnt.
Worst company i ever worked for, voted with my feet and left after 3 months.
every shipping company will tell you they arent making money, and the outsourcing of foreign labour has been going on for years. The only reason there are (were) so many brits working on the english channel route was because of the French who protected it as only the French can do.
It is definitively NOT redundancy as the work being done and the numbers of jobs is not changing; it’s a mass dismissal.
The fact that a subcontractor is involved is irrelevant.Refer to ACAS website for definition and explanation of redundancy.
If an employer decides to outsource the work being done by a particular group or class of employees, this technically creates a redundancy situation, as the employer will stop carrying on that particular type of work.
Ultimately its pretty irrelevant, unless P&O all of a sudden find a conscience they will just buy their way out of the problem and by the time the holiday season starts any repetitional damage will be forgotten about as people just want cheap ferry tickets.
@frankconway, can you quote something more specific to justify your opinion? Just saying it's on a website somewhere isn't very convincing.
Jobs in Great Britain undertaken by its citizens? As opposed to jobs in Great Britain undertaken by foreigners or jobs outside Great Britain?
The issue here is the sacking of 800 P&O employees and their replacement with agency staff on much lower rates and employment conditions. The nationality of those affected is irrelevant, unless you are some sort of bigot. Are you assuming that the 800 sacked all had British nationality?
That is Brexit.
Capitalism doesn't have an unacceptable face in the EU? Of course everyone in the EU loves capitalism without question. It's why they never have strikes or protests in the streets when big business screws them over. I see the fantasy that the EU is a liberal socialist utopia still has legs. It's quite bizarre.
The nationality of those affected is irrelevant, unless you are some sort of bigot.
Back to tbe context (of this being indicative of a post-brexit failure) you'll need to ask someone who voted for brexit who they thought they were voting to protect against this sort of thing. I suspect a lot would have assumed the 800 were good British folk and they are indeed bigots.
that they weren’t blaming brexit.
Of course it's about Brexit, how could it possibly not be? Brexit is ALL about "gaining a competitive edge" over the EU, which means being able to hire and fire as much as you want. P&O may not being saying that their poor results or losses are because of Brexit, but there' s there's clearly been a measuring at P&O board level weighing the business gains or losses about how much this will cost them. Yeah, they may have broken the law, but those 800 workers are gone, and by the time this has gone through the courts and fines levied (maybe) they'll have traded all that time with cheaper labour.
This is literally the Brexit that the likes of Raab and Rees-Mogg foresaw. This is supposed to be how it works.
you’ll need to ask someone who voted for brexit who they thought they were voting to protect against this sort of thing
Like the RMT union?
I suspect a lot would have assumed the 800 were good British folk and they are indeed bigots.
I am asking you. I assume that many people working on P&O ferries aren't Brits. Why do you assume they are?
Why would you assume they aren't?
(I mean, if we're just going to play a long and boring version of "Challenge The Assumption", why not make it a two player game?)
it’s definitely redundancy as they are not replacing the sacked staff, they are buying in this service from a subcontractor
If UK law applies (and I think that's the point in doubt) then TUPE applies. See ACAS link and scroll to Service Provision Changes. If TUPE applies there should have been consultation, and employment terms should be preserved if for those who transfer, and there are rules about redundancy.
Why would you assume they aren’t?
Because both the transport and the service industries employ a high number of non Brits. It's not exactly complicated. Would you likewise be shocked to discover that many people working for the NHS aren't actually British?
The nationality of those concerned is irrelevant.
Have Brits lost their jobs? Yes.
Did the RMT tell British people to vote for Brexit to protect those very jobs? Yes.
Did voting Brexit work? Not in the way RMT sold it, no.
People are only pointing that out, not agreeing with the RMT’s logic, or the logic of Brexit and its many conflicting claimed benefits (that will never come).
TUPE would only apply to the employees that were actually transferring, and my understanding (which could be mistaken) is that they are not being offered that opportunity.
I'm not denying that rules were broken about the dismissal and redundancy. I'm just saying that it does appear to be redundancy. If a company decides to no longer employ people to do X, and instead buy it in as a service when required, there is no requirement that they arrange that their newly-redundant employees should get equivalent positions with a 3rd party in order to do the same work. Of course there are some situations where this does occur, but many where it does not. In many cases, there just won't be jobs for these people at all, as the work is simply no longer undertaken (or at least not at the same level).
When TUPE applies, employees are automatically transferred to the new employer on similar terms to their previous employment, though they can decide not to start work for the new employer (but they won't get a redundancy payment if they do that*).
I did read that all employees had been offered places on the new terms with the new employer, but I can't find it now. As the working terms and conditions are different, I can't see how that can be a TUPE transfer. This situation is a little complicated as it is an out-sourcing coupled with a "fire and re-hire on worse terms". It appears that the latter can be lawful, so presumably if** it would have been lawful to do it and offer re-hiring, it would also be lawful to do it and offer an out-sourced job.
* I did this once, it was interesting. You don't have to give any notice, you just don't turn up on transfer day. The new employer may have absolutely no idea how many, if any, new staff they will need to hire. Being a nice chap, I gave some notice of my intentions. I got an unfair dismissal payment as I argued that it wasn't a transfer governed by TUPE and they didn't fancy taking it all the way to a tribunal. Obviously I already had another job lined up.
** which will always be a contestible issue as far as I can see.
People are only pointing that out, not agreeing with the RMT’s logic, or the logic of Brexit and its many conflicting claimed benefits (that will never come).
It's got bugger all to do with brexit. Unless of course you can explain why you believe this would not have happened had the UK remained in the EU.
I'm not sure gloating that P&O are still able to take advantage of free movement despite brexit somehow strengthens your case.
It’s got bigger all to do with brexit. Unless of course you can explain why you believe this would not have happened had the UK remained in the EU.
Which would be undermined by Irish Ferries having done the same thing...
It’s got bigger all to do with brexit.
Brexit hasn't stopped this happening. Despite what RMT claimed when encouraging people to vote Leave. I copied and pasted from their current website earlier in the thread. The fantasy hasn't come to pass. Brexit hasn't improved the position of their members, and/or seafarers/offshore/ferry workers, one jot.
Brexit has changed RoRo forever between UK and its neighbours. This puts P&O in a worse operating environment then they would have been if people hadn't voted for Brexit (expecting, in good faith, multiple contradictory benefits, including but not limited to the fantasy that the RMT were promoting).
A different perspective for you lot. I talked to my sister today who is pro Brexit.
She see the P&O debacle as a failure of Brexit. "She voted for Brexit to stop this sort of thing happening".
Now, it's a control group of one... but I suspect her view is likely to be shared by many that voted Brexit and believe whole heartedly that we really would take back control and protect and improve the lot of "British English workers".
I suspect they are in for a very abrupt and rude awakening.
(Disclosure, I'm a confirmed remainer.)
She see the P&O debacle as a failure of Brexit. “She voted for Brexit to stop this sort of thing happening”.
That was the RMT position.
Brexit hasn’t stopped this happening.
No it hasn't. And as it could have just as easily have happened had the UK remained in the EU it is pointless banging on about brexit. As the legal expert in that Guardian article said, brexit in this case "is a red herring", however much you might want to milk it.
Are you going to blame brexit every time capitalism acts in a callous, uncaring, and greedy, way? Because of course capitalism is always kind, caring, and generous, in the EU.
Time to let go. Even the leader of the Labour Party accepts that reality.
No, I’m going to point out that Brexit has failed to deliver what people were told it would deliver, on top of damaging lives and livelihoods both inside and outside the borders of the UK. People didn’t get what they voted for. Sadly we did get what we voted against.
The nationality of those concerned is irrelevant.
Totally agree but it does beg the question - why, then, were you asking about British jobs in the first place?
I wasn't.
Are you going to blame brexit every time capitalism acts in a callous, uncaring, and greedy, way?
when the RMT suggest to their membership that voting for Brexit will stop capitalism acting in a callous way then yes.
No, I’m going to point out that Brexit has...
Knock yourself out on the brexit thread - that's why it's there.
when the RMT suggest to their membership that voting for Brexit will stop capitalism acting in a callous way
LOL! This is getting silly now!
pondo
The nationality of those concerned is irrelevant.
Totally agree but it does beg the question – why, then, were you asking about British jobs in the first place?
ernielynch
I wasn’t.
Ernie, 7 hours ago.
ernielynch
“British jobs” what do you mean British jobs?
Yeah, so I asked what someone meant talking about British jobs as I consider it completely irrelevant.
I thought it was irrelevant when it was first mentioned, I thought it was irrelevant when you asked, and I still think it's irrelevant now. HTH
Well, there's nothing like getting bogged down in a string of irrelevant questions to really bring a thread alive - thanks for the treat.
The opposition parties really should be campaigning on this and making P&O's action, which has received universal condemnation and united people in a way that very few industrial disputes (if any) do, a watershed moment.
Good to see our resident Lexiteers are still just as full throated in their support for Nigel, Boris and Jeremys Putin-funded project
Hurray for socialism
#usefulidiots
Sorry Ernie, you’re wrong about it not being Brexit. It’s a direct impact of Brexit. It’s OK to be wrong.
Jeremys Putin
Wow. This has to be a new low for you binners.
Just facts. Take them as low as you like
Have you forgotten that a month ago your hero was defending Putin and saying this was all NATO’s fault? Same as he defended him about the Salisbury poisonings
At least he’s consistent. Wrong about absolutely everything.
From experience over the last two years with P&O, both covid and Brexit have shafted them. We use the hull-Rotterdam crossing at least twice a year and the Cairnryan-Larne routes about an equal amount.
The Hull-Zeebrugge and Rotterdam ships were always previously full and the Irish route generally at least 50% capacity.
On pride of hull/Rotterdam it was easy to see the drop off in trade: the upper vehicle deck is exclusively PAX while the lower deck is freight and awkwardly sized PAX. On our crossings both last summer and in 2020, both were practically empty. As in: on one crossing they didn’t put any cars “upstairs” as there was no freight “downstairs” to weigh the thing down. No HGVs, unaccompanied trailers. Nothing. In summer ‘20 we were planning on cowering in our cabin with a picnic rather than risk using the restaurant, but as we were one of about 4 families onboard socially distancing was easy - even at an all you can eat buffet. It was properly like a 59000t Marie Celeste. Last summer was similar - a few more nutters like us escaping for a few weeks, but really crew outnumbered us greatly.
The fall in trade made P&O kill their zeebrugge route completely and sell the old Norsea/Norsun off to SNAV. That route was massively popular with freight.
On the North channel prices have gone wild for pax (£380 to get home now!) though freight is still dirt cheap (family ship 40t loads of cement over all the time: £70 to you. Yes £70!) but still the ships are empty. You can roll up to cairnryan and be one of about 50 cars in the queue. On a ship that can carry 375. Totally unsustainable.
I see the Dutch flagged ships are back running: wannabe prison ship Norbay is pootling across to Dublin while her Cypriot sister is moored in Liverpool. Pride of Hull is obstructing the berth in hull. As soon as they can get her off stand (it’ll have to go to anchor as she won’t fit through the king George dock lock) I reckon pride of Rotterdam will set sail again.
We’re booked on POH on the 8th. I can’t quite make my mind up if we’ll sail, or if I want to sail. Clearly they’re a scum company in the nestle mould.
Ernie is correct that Brexit did not allow this, and others are correct that it did not stop it.
However the point of being in a trading block like the EU is mutually beneficial trade and work arrangements.
Brexit has reduced those trade benefits, making the ferries less viable (companies try not to operate services that lose money - which is fair enough).
Covid caused travel restrictions on top of the Brexit shambles - even less viable.
But Brexit made those covid travel restrictions worse again for the UK. EU to EU restrictions existed but they were generally either shorter lived or less onerous or both.
Now could P&O still done this with the UK in the EU club - probably.
But companies are money driven and tend not to do this sort of thing when they are making a nice return on their investment.
Was Brexit alone the cause of this - no.
Did it contribute - yes, whatever schoolboy idealism about Brexit might say.
And yes, the RMT look a bit stupid.
At least he’s consistent. Wrong about absolutely everything.
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1502201248690454529?s=20&t=0hwadzklLukFmtwKvXbi1Q
It’s got bugger all to do with brexit. Unless of course you can explain why you believe this would not have happened had the UK remained in the EU.
it’s got plenty to do with Brexit. Why do you think this action only affects those on U.K. contracts and not those on french or Dutch contracts
I also don’t believe p&o actually made a loss. I’m sure their accounts say that. But I suspect they also show a huge payment for something to the parent company as a tax avoidance weeze
Covid caused travel restrictions on top of the Brexit shambles – even less viable.
Exactly this. As PAX we would have been denied entry into NL last summer if I'd not had my Irish passport. The Dutch authorities forbade tourist travel to NL for third-country citizens, but were open to any EU citizens. At check-in we were told to hide our Bristish passports and only show the Irish ones. Many EU countries were similarly restrictive. To get to austria we had to go through NL, belgium and France - spend 10 days there and sneak in via Switzerland and Lichtenstien. Nobody else was prepared to risk that for a holiday. Holiday PAX generate cream of the profit. Our politicial relationship with europe during covid had a massive effect on tourist travel.
If you don't beleive that: I mistakenly handed over my useless British passport on the way home (I thought I needed to as it was on my PLF). The dutch border guy was like: "How the hell did you get in? You guys are not allowed in!" I quickly handed over the proper one to which he responded: "Oh, that explains it, I thought we had a problem."
We've burned our bridges. We're no longer accepted and that's having effects right now at P&O.
Why do you think this action only affects those on U.K. contracts and not those on french or Dutch contracts
I appreciate that not everyone will have read all the posts but it's pointless to keep asking the same questions.
Without repeating everything and going round in circles endlessly, a former British prime minister proudly boasted, quote:
"The changes that we do propose would leave British law the most restrictive on trade unions in the Western world"
EU membership did not protect UK workers from what a UK PM claimed were the most anti-trade union laws in the Western world.
Also you might find reading this article useful :
https://www.thelocal.fr/20220318/why-did-po-ferries-axe-uk-jobs-but-keep-its-french-workers/
If you can't be bothered reading it all here is the critical point :
However, French workers enjoy greater protection than their British colleagues thanks to the Code du Travail (labour code).
Despite the claims by some people EU membership does not mean that electing national governments has no consequences due to everything being decided by the EU.
Binners - just when I think your bizarre obsession with Corbyn can't get any weirder you still manage to surprise me. Ranting about Corbyn-Putin on a thread about P&O Ferries? Instead of using every thread with a vague political angle to go into a rant about Corbyn why don't you post your rants on the Corbyn thread which no doubt is still active? As it will constantly bump up the thread I'm sure your rants will still be read.
Despite the claims by some people EU membership does not mean that electing national governments has no consequences due to everything being decided by the EU.
Er... who said that? Other than those that wanted people to vote for Brexit?
Yes Kelvin, it seems that the views of some remainers are now converging with the views of right-wing brexiteers......... the EU decided everything
