the RMT told their members to vote for brexit as it would protect UK maritime jobs from foreigners. :/
Have you got a link? If that is what the RMT told their members it will be in writing somewhere.
I attended a pre-referendum public debate where one of the speakers was from the RMT executive committee, he made no such claim during the whole debate.
I'm guessing it's something that you chose to make up?
Edit : I assume that you added the link afterwards as it wasn't obvious when I wrote my post. Nothing in that link provides evidence that the RMT told their members to vote for brexit as it would protect UK maritime jobs from foreigners.
First paragraph in Klunk's link seems to explicitly state RMT will be advising members to vote leave?
What am I missing?
What am I missing?
The bit that says "the RMT told their members to vote for brexit as it would protect UK maritime jobs from foreigners."
Edit : Many RMT members are actually "foreigners". It is not a "British only" trade union.
ernie - RMT advised their members...
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/
Leave the EU to end attacks on seafarers and the offshore workers
The EU has promoted undercutting and social dumping leading to the decimation of UK seafarers. The same is now happening in the offshore sector. EU directives also require the tendering our public ferry services.
Seems clear to me from Klunk's link. "end attacks' is the same as "protect". Whichever way you word it the RMT were useful idiots to the Brexiters and Conservatives in the Brexit debate.
Edit, I added brixiters because the Conservatives only became Brexiters after the referendum and in subsequent election campaigns
It doesn't matter how many times you post the link it still doesn't say that the RMT told their members to vote for brexit as it would protect UK maritime jobs from foreigners.
It did Ernie, did, didn't, did didn't, didn't.
Just let people read it and make up their own minds eh.
useful idiots to the Conservatives in the Brexit debate.
Keep that nonsense for the Brexit thread.
Ernie's mad debating skilz at work once again.
The news reports suggest that most of the staff made redundant were earning £20-£30 an hour plus on costs - with the more senior roles obviously earning much more - in the range of £100-£150 an hour plus on costs.
The new crew - employed on maritime contracts will be paid £2-3 an hour - which is a pittance but unfortunately in line with other roles that are vessel based.
P&O seem to have reduced the wage bill by > 90% and are probably saving 40% on top of that in on costs as well. All of which probably gives them close to the £100m saving they need to achieve in order to avoid making further losses on that business unit.
And before we get too exercised about this - pretty much all cruise ship workers are employed the same way and there will be a fair few singletrackers who’ve travelled that way with little or no thought for the crew.
ernie - the RMT advised their members to vote for brexit; they did not, in the linked article, say that would protect maritime jobs from foreigners.
It's possible that some of their members and officers held/expressed that view privately.
The RMT document states '... undercutting and social dumping' without explaining what they mean; those words could easily be read to support klunk's comment.
Part of a wider trend it would appear.
@edukator I said 'similar' not the same. It's declined by a few hundred thousand, but not dropped off massively like passenger numbers have due to CV19. My point is that trucks are still moving to/from the UK and EU mainland, regardless of Brexit
P&O seem to have reduced the wage bill by > 90%
I think it was widely assumed that P&O did it to save on the wages bill, I can't see a justification because other employers are also known to pay pisspoor wages.
£100m divided by 800 is £125,000.
That's average annual salary, per person.
Or £60 per hour each, assuming 40hrs/week.
No way all 800 staff were getting half that, or it costs £30 to keep them onboard. As if!
A 17% decline in trucks through Dover between 2017 and 2021 isn't my idea of "similar" even if it's yours, finefilly. Now look at the cars, and the coaches.
Madame used to take two busses of kids to the UK every year. She's stopped because Brexit means kids need a passport and a pile of paperwork she's not prepared to do. The end, she's taking them to Hamburg instead. Edit to add: the headmaster can't discrimate between kids on the basis of their origin, if the UK government won't accept kids in the group of non-French origin then no-one can go.
I used visit the UK but haven't been for years. It's now a pain with a French passport with all sorts of shit to fill in, and people don't want me and my foreign bloody car.
I don't order stuff from UK retailers any more, the billing and taxation are totally random. There are plenty of threads on here to say that's reciprocal.
Imports and exports between the UK and EU are down, look at the stats, 20% down is significant not similar.
All that to say that ferry companies operating Dover Calais have taken a big hit in traffic due to Brexit for which there has been no compensation. P&O have choices to make:
Make savings
Throw in the towel and use the boats elsewhere on more profitable routes if they can find them.
It’s now a pain with a French passport with all sorts of shit to fill in,
Without wanting to derail the thread, but I am interested to know what you need to fill in to visit the UK as a French passport holder ? As far as I know for the last two years any extra form filling has been due to covid ( travel locator forms, proof of vaccination, neg test results etc),but those requirements have now been removed (as of today), so you should just now he able to visit with just your french passport which is the same as you always used to need before Brexit.
My original comment was comparing 2019-2020 (ie before and after Brexit and CV19). So, er yea, it was similar. You're comparing my description to a longer time period.
I also acknowledge the passenger numbers were hit by CV19, but the truck numbers were similar, showing that Brexit had not massively affected the number of trucks through Dover from 2019 to 2020 (due to brexit). If you read the posts before mine, it might make more sense.
And I stand by my original comment that there are other ways to run a good business than just cutting costs. Its also pretty obvious that binning these 800 people won't save £100m per year either.
As far as I know for the last two years any extra form filling has been due to covid
My sister who lives in Madrid comes regularly to the UK on a French passport as her son and grandchildren live in London. The only restrictions I am aware of have been due to Covid, although she still came over and was in the UK about a month ago. She is coming over again in a week's time.
You're right Julians, I'd latched onto Priti Patel's announcements last year when Madame was looking into it but apparently they haven't been implemented, yet:
Une nouvelle formalité de voyage pourrait être instaurée après le Brexit, sous la forme d’une autorisation ETA similaire à l’ESTA américain. Il n’a pas été précisé si la formalité envisagée serait obligatoire pour aller en Grande-Bretagne uniquement (Angleterre, Ecosse, Pays-de-Galles), ou également en Irlande du Nord.
Il s’agirait d’obliger les étrangers, y compris les touristes et voyageurs d’affaires, à détenir un passeport valide et un eVisa officiel afin d’entrer au Royaume-Uni.
Jusqu’à présent, un visa Angleterre n’est pas nécessaire pour les Français. Actuellement, les voyageurs en provenance d’Union Européenne peuvent voyager outre-Manche munis d'un passeport valide uniquement.
Une autorisation électronique pour l’Angleterre, Ecosse, Pays de Galles, Irlande-du-Nord ?Le gouvernement britannique penche sérieusement sur un projet de eVisa, qui se nommerait probablement « Autorisation ETA - Electronic Travel Authorization ».
La durée de validité de cette autorisation serait de 3 mois. Au-delà, il faudrait effectuer des démarches supplémentaires pour rester sur le sol britannique.
Nul ne sait, à l’heure actuelle, si cette nouvelle obligation de Visa Royaume-Uni sera appliquée réellement, ni à quelle date. Notre site internet sera mis à jour dès que nous aurons de nouvelles informations.
If P&O wanted to make 800 people redundant they can but need to have a minimum of 45 days 'consultation' before serving notice. They didn't do this and that is illegal irrespective of anything else and whether they can save cash by paying poor wages.
If the crew we're on overseas contracts then this might not apply but their furlough claims during covid lockdowns were then fraudulent.
Either way I hope (but kind of doubt) that some directors end up in jail although I suspect it will be a way too small a fine and keep on cosying up to run tax avoiding freeports so there is less money to be spent on everything in the UK.
Although you can visit the UK on an EU passport without a visa I don't know whether you can with an identity card which is all most Europeans, particularly children, ever use. The UK is thankfully not a country where you have to show identity cards regularly. I also don't know whether you might need a work visa if a teacher with a school group which I think is the scenario that was described above and you would now need medical insurance for the UK etc. etc. Another educational opportunity missed for UK kids in having fewer exchange kids to learn foreign swears words and snogging with no common language and all those other things that happen on school exchanges.
Although you can visit the UK on an EU passport without a visa I don’t know whether you can with an identity card
No you can't travel to UK on an identity card, you've never been able to, even before Brexit.
I went to the UK on an ID card before Brexit. Very few of the kids on Madame's trips had passports.
I went to the UK on an ID car before Brexit.
Just googled and looksnlike imwrong about the Id cards ,you could use them before and you can still use them now,but only under more limited circumstances
I always thought travel on Id cards was a Schengen only thing.
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/whats-going-on-with-po/page/7#post-12294480
Missus is still on a paper ID card, gets very stern looks at passport control.. Have a nightmare getting a passport due to usual dodgy Italian rules
I've just asked Madame who's arrive home about the non-French/European kids on her trips and the thing that's changed is that they now need a prohibitively expensive visa. Previously they just needed a french carte de séjour and a document from the Mairie but now need a passport and a visa. For kids from African countries that's a fortune and the headmaster is not prepared to run a trip they would effectively be excluded from as that would be clear discrimination
slowol - it's not redundancy as the jobs still exist; it's a mass sacking with severance payment but it's still shit.
Totally reprehensible behaviour by P&O Ferries & DP World.
Just boycott ever using P&O. Unfortunately we always use the tunnel because of doggo.
it’s not redundancy as the jobs still exist; it’s a mass sacking with severance payment
I'm not an employment lawyer but I've experienced redundancy from multiple perspectives and also "sackings" of employees
Ignoring anyone who's been there less than 2 years, if these employees are subject to UK employment law, they can't be "sacked" for no reason.
P&O have massively F'd up here. As above, if they were claiming furlough for any of these employees, then they've either made fraudulent furlough claims or they've massively ballsed up the legally required redundancy process, or most likely a combination of both
The UK is thankfully not a country where you have to show identity cards regularly.
Way off topic, but you do you know. Try picking up a parcel from the post office, or going to a job interview (often passport for the latter). Or a BC race.
And I am expected to carry an ID card at work as are many others.
Whether right or wrong a company can legally make all its staff redundant and then rehire other staff. In theory it's the post not the person that goes but a lot of employers just shrug or say different pay for the new person so tough as that makes it a different job. There are more get outs than enough and try proving it in court. Plenty of firms done the fire and rehire on lower rates thing and it's not illegal and forget morals with a lot of firms. Pretty much the best you can get from an employment tribunal for being sacked unfairly is 3 months pay and that's if you can afford a lawyer and a 2 year wait.
What isn't legal is not doing some 45 day consultation which is often a sham and IME companies rarely do anything but tell what they are doing rather than consulting and listening.
UK employment law is far too biased to the employer. To have very publically appear to have broken the law as well as acting immorally is quite a feat.
The UK is thankfully not a country where you have to show identity cards regularly.
Nor is France, you don't even have to possess one. Very useful though:
It's free
I can travel all around Shengen with it
It avoids being hauled off to the cop shop by suspicious cops with nothing better to do than find out who you are.
It's all you need in your pocket to accomplish a host of adminstrative tasks.
It means that people, especially non drivers, aren't excluded from doing things they are entitled to by petty jobsworths who don't believe how old they are.
Don't tell the red tops though, that would spoil their fun. 🙂
To have very publically appear to have broken the law as well as acting immorally is quite a feat.
To be fair to Sultan Ahmed bin Sulayem I suspect that these are not issues which he generally has to concern himself with.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/18/po-ferries-sackings-brexit-uk-eu-employment-law
The consensus is that this has nothing to do with Brexit. Some of the remarks on this thread haven't aged well.
Nice to see our resident Lexiteers are all in agreement that Brexit is all still absolutely bloody brilliant!
Carry on…
The employment law has nothing to do with Brexit but the fall in traffic which has lead to P&O losing money has everything to to with Brexit long term and Covid short term, Ransos. Brexit is one of the reasons they're trying to cut costs, however Brexit has not enabled the ruthless way they've fired the workers.
Yeah binners, how dare the Guardian publishes expert legal advice which contradicts your assertion that P&O's callous and appalling behaviour was the result of Brexit.
What were they thinking when they said this :
Andrea London, a partner in law firm Winckworth Sherwood’s employment team, said Brexit was a “red herring”. She said the EU collective redundancies directive was implemented in the UK by a primary act of parliament which “gold-plated” (went beyond) the EU legislation, adding: “Given its longevity and trade union backing, it is firmly entrenched in the UK employment law environment, and there inevitably would be considerable opposition to any repeal or paring back of the protections in this act due to leaving the EU.”
They also quote some so-called "barrister". Pfft..... I would rather take the word of some random geezer on a MTB forum who claims to do colouring in for a living.
A question:
My sister is intent that the P&O have sacked the workers and hired foreign ones in to replace them.
She's rabidly pro Boris/ Brexit.... can someone confirm or deny this is the case?
She's not too concerned about the sacking, more about who is replacing them...
Cheers.👍
Your sister is incorrect - they appear to have illegally fired them and replaced them with UK based agency workers. I don't know how much cheaper this is , but presumably the cheaper the better.
Is she expecting the same to happen to her?
. Pfft….. I would rather take the word of some random geezer on a MTB forum who claims to do colouring in for a living.
Now who is it who whittles wood for a living? 😉 I haven't done anything for a living for nearly 20 year's.
wbo
Free Member
Your sister is incorrect – they appear to have illegally fired them and replaced them with UK based agency workers. I don’t know how much cheaper this is , but presumably the cheaper the better.Is she expecting the same to happen to her?
Cheers. No, she's retired. Just doesn't like foreigners. Unless they are treating her in the NHS.
It's a couple of agencies that are doing the hiring not P&O. P&O claim not to know what they are paying. The agencies have definitely recruited staff in the UK, although I don't know if they also have from elsewhere.
The UK is thankfully not a country where you have to show identity cards regularly.
The UK unfortunately confuses having to show ID cards with making them available to citizens. If you don't have a passport or driving licence there are things you cannot do, eg, setting up an online account with HMRC. You also have to have certain things like bank statements as paper records, for ID purposes. We should just have an ID card with a QR code giving encrypted proof of validity.
Apologies if this point as been made before, but for all those who are justifiably going to boycott P&O, be aware that P&O Cruises is a completely unconnected company to P&O Ferries. The cruise company is getting stick from people who think it's the same.
Nice to see our resident Lexiteers are all in agreement that Brexit is all still absolutely bloody brilliant!
Carry on…
No surprise that you failed to respond to what I said, or to acknowledge that you were completely wrong with your earlier comment. I'd stick to the well-remunerated colouring in, because you're out of your depth here.
