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It might well be simple but with the limited information it's hard to tell.
It might well be simple but with the limited information it’s hard to tell.
Very true, but lacking any real info (and that is unlikely to change) the only thing I can really point you at is the old axiom "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
“This is going to make a chapter in every business handbook titled “How to handle 800 redundancies really badly, while at the same time trash any reputation your business may have had”
+1. The chapter conclusion is likely to end with a group action from former employees because you can’t make 800 roles redundant and then hire 800 new people to do exactly the same roles. It’s not a genuine redundancy and P&O will learn that the hard / expensive way*
One other point here is that for the 800 people who’ve lost their jobs with literally no notice the experience for many will be devastating. Anyone who has been through redundancy / loss of employment will know that it’s something that never really leaves you - more so if you experience it more than once. Even if they “win” in court many of those impacted will now spend the rest of their careers with the constant background worry of “will it happen again?”.
* caveat: if the crew are on employment contracts entered into under the law of Jersey this may not be correct. Likewise if they are on Maritime contracts, or maritime contracts entered into under Jersey Law, or maritime contracts tied to the Vessel - which is flagged to an EU member state.
Open seacocks, go home for tea. We really need to be more French in many ways.
Can I just ask though, where were the RMT when P&O decided to offer their employees off-shore contracts?
The lady doth protest too much, methinks
Well, quite. It's very illustrative that there's been no response to my point. It's got bollocks all to do with brexit or Corbyn, and everything to do with the tories being in power. I despair for all the people who are going to lose their jobs and suffer thanks to the petty and selfish actions of the labour right. They are going to have a lot of blood on their hands before they have the opportunity to fix the damage they caused. And even then I think we all know they won't fix it.
“never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
100% with you on that.
No response to your point? You are aware that your theory that everything is the fault of the 'labour right' and their grand conspiracy to undermine the anointed one is absolutely mental, right?
and everything to do with the tories being in power.
And yet every indication is its probably illegal and that if it isn't its because they've engaged in some significant chicanery to ensure the contracts don't fall under UK jurisdiction where (despite the colour of govt we have) you can't legally do these things.
It's got bollocks all to do with who is in power here and everything to do with the belief that people are of less value than profit and the global system which allows companies and individuals to act according to that belief.
We really need to be more French in many ways.
It would require electing a government which was committed to abandoning neo-liberalism and anti-trade unionism.
Tony Blair proudly boasted that under his premiership the UK would still have the most anti-trade union laws in the Western world. EU or no EU. He was probably right.
"The changes that we do propose would leave British law the most restrictive on trade unions in the Western world." - Tony Blair
And yet every indication is its probably illegal
Well if it's illegal we can look forward to P&O being prosecuted and the 800 people getting their jobs back or being compensated accordingly. It also means it's got bugger all to do with brexit or Corbyn. I presume also we'll see the tory govt suspending P&O's licence to operate pending the outcome of legal action?
I presume also we’ll see the tory govt suspending P&O’s licence to operate pending the outcome of legal action?
And Air freight the food that P&O bring into the UK here using Boris' wallpaper fund? I appreciate the current lot are a pretty odious bunch but I can't see even then starving the voter base to make a point.
I presume also we’ll see the tory govt suspending P&O’s licence to operate pending the outcome of legal action?
Mate... DPW, P&O's parent company are instrumental in the establishment of the Tory's post-Brexit obsession of freeports. The government may wring their hands but they won't do a damn thing with regards to any sanctions on them. I'm pretty certain that there are also plenty of Tory Brexiteers who see this kind of thing as their preferred approach to workers rights, and the whole reason for leaving the EU
It also takes some serious mental gymnastics to conclude, given this, that this is nothing to do with Brexit. Of course it is!
[Edit] deleted [/edit]
Sorry I shouldn't be engaging on this, we all agree on the only part that's actually relevant to the thread or important in any way which is
The more serious point is that 800 people, and surely many more over the next couple of years, are now out of a job
The government may wring their hands but they won’t do a damn thing with regards to any sanctions on them.
Well that's my point. Someone up there was saying it's nothing to do with the tories when it's 100% to do with the tories being in power. And who do we have to thank for that? The labour right and that Lib Dem woman who's name I've already forgot.
I'm trying to imagine the recruiters for the crewing agency. "Yes we would like to offer you a job - on even worse terms than the guys who all got fired yesterday"
@dangeourbrain - You may want to have a read of this. It gives a pretty clear direction the architects of Brexit had for workers rights in this country once we are 'free of the EU' and its what we're seeing in action with P&O yesterday
Whether its presently legal or not isn't really the point. The point is that P&O clearly see the Brexity UK government as fellow travellers. I'm pretty sure that this feeling is privately reciprocated, no matter their public pronouncements on the issue. This is the future of employment in the UK if this lot have their way, and they are now no longer 'constrained' by the EU
I’m trying to imagine the recruiters for the crewing agency. “Yes we would like to offer you a job – on even worse terms than the guys who all got fired yesterday”
Regretfully there are plenty of people in the UK for whom that's a better offer than the status quo, there are quite literally billions worldwide.
Well if it’s illegal we can look forward to P&O being prosecuted and the 800 people getting their jobs back or being compensated accordingly.
Nobody has suggested anything was criminal have they? So nobody will be prosecuted. Employment tribunal could force them to be reinstated though which would be amusing - they'd have lost the reputation, lost the revenue for however long they take to change staff, probably have to pay the crewing agency compensation for cancelling the contract, and be worse off with a less motivated workforce and upset customers.
Well if it’s illegal we can look forward to P&O being prosecuted and the 800 people getting their jobs back or being compensated accordingly.
Remember that with our employer biased law that means a long legal fight (tribunal backlog is measured in years) and at best you are likely to get paid your statutory notice + 3 months pay and to get that usually have to show that you exhausted company internal grievance procedures first and if you've been there less than 2 years you're probably only 'entitled' to be paid your notice pay.
In the meantime some other capitalist offshore money laundering focused company will probably use your need for a job to pay your rent to undercut some others who are currently in dispute over pay and conditions (see my way earlier post about the Svitzer tug boat crews and Lerwick ports).
If I thought the government would cancel their contracts then there might be some justice but I very much doubt it as half the current lot have their eyes too focused on the cash they might get not their constituents. The right wing nutter MP for Dover's complaints are like the farmer saying they didn't understand that the butcher was going to slaughter their animals for meat (spoiler the commons report shows that she didn't even get the number correct in the commons yesterday, or only selectively quoted the Dover employees to make it look less bad).
Regretfully there are plenty of people in the UK for whom that’s a better offer than the status quo, there are quite literally billions worldwide.
There are not billions who are qualified as ships officers/crew. I'm not sure if crew operating Scotland-NI require the right to work in the UK (same question may apply on international routes if they don't live aboard, but I can imagine it may be different). Passengers will expect that the crew in customer facing roles speak English (on routes to France I presume some speak French etc too). Even if you don't need right to work in the UK I assume that most get off the boat each night so will be living in SW Scotland or NI when off duty - which automatically means your cost of living expectations are based on UK costs not "back home". I'm sure they will fill the roles, but I suspect it will be harder than they thought when their sales guy thought he'd landed deal of the century. And if they are treated crap and any good, they'll leave soon enough - churn is expensive.
All this talk of reputational damage and restitution according to law is fantasy.
The fines they'll pay for abusing employment laws will be a pittance.
There will be loads of folk willing to accept the shittier contracts.
The British public don't care who drives the boats their wine arrives on, or carries their car to the summer sun.
People deluded if they think this has anything to do with Brexit. Happened many times in manufacturing, in a less brazen fashion, pre Brexit.
It’s deregulation and it is happening globally.
People have a hard time realising that overseas CO’s / stakeholders work to different playbooks (especially ME / Asia). This will be a first push of many to see what they can get away with in the EU / UK. Not much risk to them if they fail, pay a fine, meh, they have plenty of money.
All the French have going for them is a talent for protest.
I’m really hoping we see reports of disabled ferries in Dover harbour next week when they try and resume services. Passwords changed on critical log-ins like navigation systems, the odd electronic control card missing, hydraulic systems topped up with water/sand, superglue in locks and keys chucked in the harbour. I’m sure there are many creative ways to really **** up a cross channel ferry.
Lets be brutally honest here, unless it affects you directly as someone who is caught up in it, or their family, this time next week it will be old news and will be forgotten by the general public.
Easter holidays coming up soon, I bet any "solidarity with the workers" will dissolve once the rivals firms boats are filled and there is no other choice left.
And no , i'm not trolling,
There are not billions who are qualified as ships officers/crew
Sorry yes, blt of a broad statement for the specific case at hand but I'm still not convinced they'll struggle to crew the boats.
I assume that most get off the boat each night so will be living in SW Scotland or NI when off duty
If I were to guess I'd expect new contracts to be much more aligned with global commercial shipping and the associated pay and living [on board] standards, but that would be an absolute guess.
Passengers will expect that the crew in customer facing roles speak English (on routes to France I presume some speak French etc too).
For a £10 reduction in fare I suspect most wouldn't care if 95% of the on board staff didn't speak at all.
surely the net number of people needed to man their boats hasn't changed, they've just found some people who are willing to get paid less. So whilst 800 people are out of work, another 800 suddenly have jobs? or more likely i guess, a bunch of those 800 will now sign up to lower paid contracts with the new company at a lower rate of pay.
I think that the transport unions sometimes shoot themselves in the foot. They're very effective at negociating pay rises (by having a strong hold over the qualified labour force), however that introduces more incentive for companies to do stuff like this, as otehr people people are willing to drive boats etc for less money. I guess its the same with train driver salaries etc..
All this talk of reputational damage and restitution according to law is fantasy.
The fines they’ll pay for abusing employment laws will be a pittance.
Once again - its not a criminal matter, they won't pay any fines.
@sillysilly - there will be a Brexit contribution although I'm not sure Brexit made it possible - but Brexit means a lot of Irish freight now goes direct to continent rather than via the UK; and of course the complications in shipping stuff to from EU which may mean its not worth the hassle - so that will be part of the economic situation that P&O found themselves in.
@revs1972 - 100%. if treating staff and customers like shit was something that affected people's holiday buying decisions Ryanair wouldn't have a business. My brother was tweeting away last night how he'd never get on a P&O ferry every again. I can't really any time he's ever got on a ferry in the first place!
The more serious point is that 800 people, and surely many more over the next couple of years, are now out of a job thanks to idiots and a***holes in the labour party who put their prejudices and personal ambitions before the interests of UK workers.
So nothing whatsoever to do with all the anti-worker legislation implemented by various Tory administration but actually the fault of some bloke that never got elected?
Never mind, pretty sure there'll be a fair few of the 800 who voted Tory, so at least they got what they voted for.
Once again – its not a criminal matter, they won’t pay any fines.
Daft question, but there's requirement to inform the secretary of state before you remove over 100 people. Is that not a statutory requirement so subject to enforcement by not-a-tribunal?
So nothing whatsoever to do with all the anti-worker legislation implemented by various Tory administration
Which legislation? Given there has been a labour govt that could have changed that legislation if it predated 97.
The current lot binned the planned changes to prevent fire and hire but that's not the same as implementing or creating new.
People deluded if they think this has anything to do with Brexit.
Wrong I’d say.
Brexit has reduced GB—EU trade
Brexit has re-routed Eire-EU trade to avoid GB
Brexit has reduced GB-NI trade
Brexit exacerbated GB—EU C-19 travel restrictions
All perhaps marginal but your statement doesn’t stand up as written.
Statutory consultation period for more than 100 redundancies used to be 90 days. It was cut to 45 days by David Cameron and his bleating Lib Dem cronies who helped screw down workers rights.
I'm sure the Lib Dems will bleat that they softened the proposal but I seem to remember that they help the Business Secretary post at the time and it's Ed Davey's mugshot on the 2011 document describing the consultation on changes. One second thoughts stuff the Tories we know they're almost pantomime villain bad the Lib Dems reduced workers rights about 10 years ago!
All perhaps marginal but your statement doesn’t stand up as written.
What doesn't stand up is the claim PO were able to sack 800 people without any notice because of brexit.
Nor am I aware that PO have claimed that their callous action is in any way connected to brexit. But well done for listing all the excuses that you think a company, which is ultimately owned by the dictator of a country with no democratic institutions and no tolerance of dissent, could use.
Statutory consultation period for more than 100 redundancies used to be 90 days...
Fair point, that's one.
Not of course that they've given the 45 days in this instance either mind
There's nothing illegal about sacking people on the spot as long as they pay them thier notice period up front.
It's basically garden leave.
It fricking sucks but as long as they do the legal minimum, businesses do that all the time. Makes the shareholders happy.
Well they'd already ditched the only service I used so I hope they go bust.
Happens in IT all the time.
I struggle with long sentences but I am sure there will be a solid rescue bid from Seaborne Freight any day now 😉
If you can stomach Kevin Spacey, a film called 'margin call' is well worth a watch..
It's about the 2008 financial crash but it illustrates how senior managers of huge companies operate.
He obviously didn’t then go on to crew the boat, and pointed out what a crazy idea it would be to try and sail a boat with an entirely new crew who hadn’t even set foot on it before
This is rather scary. To try to drive a boat and manage it with a crew who have not had proper induction is kind of worrying....
While I am disappointed for the 800 who have lost jobs and now need to fight for some rights, they and their union will be fighting that one.
And to summarise: the crew may have been on dodgy non-UK contracts, nothing of note has changed in employment law (yet) as a consequence of Brexshit, and large employers regularly shaft over employees for a few quid on share price next year...
Nobody has suggested anything was criminal have they? So nobody will be prosecuted
It has been suggested that P&O directors could face prosecution. Apparently it is a criminal offence not to follow redundancy consultation law.
Former company directors in two separate organisations have been charged with criminal offences relating to their failure to follow redundancy consultation rules.
Failure to do so is a criminal offence and the employer will be liable on summary conviction to a fine. Since 12 March 2015, the fine is unlimited (before that date the maximum fine was £5,000).
I'm not buying the Brexit argument; how come the number of trucks through Dover has been similar over the last few years?
Just seems like a bad business decision to me. Re-hiring 800 staff might save a bit in the short-term and give you more flexibility, but it won't change the marketplace for cross channel ferry services.
Why not differentiate yourself from DFDS/Irish ferries et al rather than slash costs. It would encourage repeat business and build your brand.
Even truck drivers appreciate good service and value for money.
how come the number of trucks through Dover has been similar over the last few years?
It hasn't, from a peak in 2017 it's been declining:
https://www.doverport.co.uk/about/performance/
the RMT told their members to vote for brexit as it would protect UK maritime jobs from foreigners. :/