Well I was just about to post when I got
"Error: Server Error
The server encountered a temporary error and could not complete your request".
I'm taking that as a hint.
"But man, proud man,"
Sexist as well 🙁
17th Century White man compares another 17th Century white man to ape in entirely non-racist context. 21st Century man quotes in the same context.
Same context? Bullying in a Twitter spat? After 200 yrs of slavery, immigration, racism, I dunno Danny Baker being sacked after tweeting monkey pics about ex-HRH's baby (I'll believe he didn't know she's mixed race, not that he doesn't know the trope. And AS could see it was a black guy he was trying to belittle. Not the same context.
Also: gaffe.
It’s like calling someone a human.
Erm well technically in terms of homo sapiens that only applies to Africans.
Everyone else is a mongrel....
I’ll believe he didn’t know she’s mixed race
I'll admit I don't follow the royals but I had no idea until people were saying it was a racist slur.
I haven't lived in the UK for over 10 years, and haven't suffered the royalist media intrusion, yet I knew she was of mixed race. It was headline news on many media websites many times, impossible to ignore for anyone even normally informed of current events.
It just wasn't a credible excuse that someone who makes a living as a media commentator wouldn't know.
The discussion continues on the basis of an insult, but we are actually apes.
So how can that be an insult? It’s like calling someone a human.
It's a context thing.
The offendee has issued a statement via Twitter which many could learn from.
Stewart was the first person to like one of my tweets so I've booked myself on a course.
I haven’t lived in the UK for over 10 years, and haven’t suffered the royalist media intrusion, yet I knew she was of mixed race. It was headline news on many media websites many times, impossible to ignore for anyone even normally informed of current events.
Perhaps when I said don't follow it would have been more accurate to say "actively avoid anything to do with".
I only moved back to the UK 11-12 yrs ago and quite honestly not entirely certain which sprog is which...it's just something (like football results)... it might be in a paper but I just skip it paying no attention.
For the record, in case my earlier comments are misinterpreted particularly as they are cut and pasted out of context of the whole post - I don't think I'm racist.
I am a **** though (you'll have to look at the posting history to work out what, or add your own interpretation)
Aren’t we in fact, apes?
Maybe his mistake was to leave out the ‘great’ as in ‘great apes’.
I for one am offended by this.
mefty
Member
The offendee has issued a statement via Twitter which many could learn from.
The comments on that thread with screenshots of Martin Shapland's own dubious posts are a bit unfortunate.
Also strange Martin saying it's regrettable that Alistair stood down, okay so what was the intention behind tagging his employer then?
That's not to say I endorse what Alistair said. Whilst on the balance of probability I don't believe his intentions were racist, as somebody in the public eye you would have to be an absolute idiot to use any language which was, or could conceivably be interpreted as being racist/sexist/trans-phobic in tone.
That’s not to say I endorse what Alistair said.
Alastair
perchypanther
Alastair
Thanks percy.
always thought they were funky rather than cheeky, have I been mislead?
Very much misled, or perhaps you are confusing monkeys for chickens?
They are definitely funky in the original sense of the word. Penguins, now they are funky and a minefield when it comes to using them in a sentence. You can end up inadvertently offending people of different colours.
Alastair
Bless you.
Penguins, now they are funky and a minefield
Not to mention those with a speech impediment.
Though these monochrome creatures bring an important message of harmony*
*I was pissed in the Edinburgh fringe club when I last saw this. May be less funny than I remember
What social media gaff did Alasdair Stewart make to force him to quit?
Getting involved in an online argument !!
What did he think he'd achieve ?
Everything to lose and nothing NOTHING to gain.
See ya
Next one please .... It''s like a new version of the Celeb Death Club game (whatever it was called) that everyone was playing half a dozen years ago.
Also strange Martin saying it’s regrettable that Alistair stood down, okay so what was the intention behind tagging his employer then?
Alastair's twitter handle is/was 'AlStewITN'. He is actively presenting himself as an ITN employee, therefore I'd say tagging his employer is fair game. If he had no reference to ITN in his handle or bio and was just acting as himself, then I'd agree with you, but I'd say by putting those in there he's explicitly acting as a representative of ITN.
NB - I've just been over this with our office while rewriting internal policies. My employer forbids using your works email account to sign up for Social Media accounts and/or presenting yourself as a representative of the organisation on Social Media. So if I'm being a knobber on Twitter, I'm only being 'Pyro, knobber' rather than 'Pyro - who works for X, knobber'
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jan/30/alastair-stewart-itv-departure-regrettable-twitter-row-martin-shapland
It sounds like Stewart dug his own hole.
If I was of BAME origin and I was taken to one side by a colleague and they apologised for using monkey/ape/primate language in my presence I would consider that to be an insult, not an apology.
It sounds a lot like the sensitivity around the words is reinforcing the power of them.
Pyro
Alastair’s twitter handle is/was ‘AlStewITN‘. He is actively presenting himself as an ITN employee, therefore I’d say tagging his employer is fair game. If he had no reference to ITN in his handle or bio and was just acting as himself, then I’d agree with you, but I’d say by putting those in there he’s explicitly acting as a representative of ITN.
NB – I’ve just been over this with our office while rewriting internal policies. My employer forbids using your works email account to sign up for Social Media accounts and/or presenting yourself as a representative of the organisation on Social Media. So if I’m being a knobber on Twitter, I’m only being ‘Pyro, knobber’ rather than ‘Pyro – who works for X, knobber’
I agree but I wasn't quibbling that, rather I don't believe Martin's statement that he reason for tagging ITN in the post was anything other than getting him sacked.
I agree but I wasn’t quibbling that, rather I don’t believe Martin’s statement that he reason for tagging ITN in the post was anything other than getting him sacked.
Fair enough. I'd say no-one bar Mr Shapland actually knows his intention, and therefore whether we believe him or not is neither here nor there now.
thegreatape
I for one am offended by this.
So it was a pongy day for someone... 🙂
Well I did have to make a car journey with a colleague, so it was. Very.
Well I did have to make a car journey with a colleague, so it was. Very.
Funky friend?
I haven’t lived in the UK for over 10 years, and haven’t suffered the royalist media intrusion, yet I knew she was of mixed race. It was headline news on many media websites many times, impossible to ignore for anyone even normally informed of current events.
It is extremely easy to ignore royal news while keeping yourself informed about other things. All stories about royals have pictures, so it's simple to skip over them without even reading the headlines. The first time I was aware that Meghan was mixed race was when my mum mentioned it after the wedding. Up until then I didn't even know she was American.
Maybe his mistake was to leave out the ‘great’ as in ‘great apes’.
Whatever you do, don’t use the ‘M’-word if introduced to an Orangutan...
Interestingly the chap who claimed he was was offended appears to himself have a bit of a problem with “white” people. Literally hundreds of messages on his twitter feed about whites / white men / white power.
Alistair Stewart also used the same quote against Extinction Rebellion - so it rather looks like the whole episode has been engineered by someone with their own agenda.
(FFS, if you check our DNA we’re all
mixedone race anyway.)
Different ethnicity, yes; race, no. All humans are the same single race.
It’s Hominidphobic.
🤟🏼👏🏻🎩
rather looks like the whole episode has been engineered by someone with their own agenda.
What agenda?
so it rather looks like the whole episode has been engineered by someone with their own agenda.
Maybe he realised that he had been an arse on a number of occasions?
“ Shapland responded to reports on Thursday to explain that the issue went further than just one Shakespeare quote tweeted in isolation. In a statement, he said: “In so far as Mr Stewart caused hurt and upset, intentionally or otherwise, in an exchange earlier this month, there is a wider context.
There was not a single post as has been widely reported, but several posts written by Mr Stewart, which have all now been deleted.”
Personally I think Shapland was looking for insult. I just showed this to my wife (BAME, Tanzanian and Indian heritage), she had no idea where the insult was. When I explained it was about the word ape, her response was that it was about the context of the discussion and not inferring Martin was an ape. (wife is a teacher, reasonably well educated and looked at the context of the discussion rather than trying to pick holes in the individual words used)
I had to ask her if she thought I was a racist for not seeing any racist connotations in what was said. (I’m white and middle class I guess) Fortunately she agrees with me that I’m not racist.
So is Martin saying that Stewart was racist in previous, deleted tweets? Or is he just pointing out to his employers that he is arguing with idiots on the internet (himself).
inferring
implying
</perchy>
Tom, my impression is that it is a smoke screen. I’ve seen two of the other tweets in a screen shot, wasn’t anything out of order.
One of them a commentator referred to his Shakespeare quote saying to be careful or someone may take it out of context due to the Ape word, Alastair replied with a picture of a face with the Halo. That may be able to be misconstrued, but that was all I’ve seen.
</perchy>
You have mistaken me for a pedant.
My pedantry only extends to the misspelling of the name Alastair.
I have my reasons.
In Borneo we use the term orang utan or monkey regardless of race. Most people just have a laugh about it as it means the person is mischievous. As far as we know most of our orang utan has red hairs and so are our Proboscis monkey so not sure if that will be misinterpreted if they are refer to people with red hairs.
Personally I think Shapland was looking for insult. I just showed this to my wife (BAME, Tanzanian and Indian heritage), she had no idea where the insult was....
I understand your wife doesn't think Stewart's Tweet was offensive, but what's the relevance of her heritage?
KCR, as a cross check. I’m a white and middle class man, I didn’t find anything offensive or racist in Alastairs tweet. I asked the wife who is from a completely different ethnicity to me what was her take on the tweet and to see if she would find it insulting. (Being African she may well pick up on the racial slur that bypassed me)
Whether you judge the Tweet to be offensive is surely about your knowledge of racist tropes and how that language has been used historically, not your heritage (or whether you are "middle class"!).
The fact your wife didn't see any offence, kind of proves that point.
I would have assumed it was pretty obvious what was wrong with Stewart's Tweet with the ape reference. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't set out to write something racist, and in the heat of the moment copy-pasted a quote that he is known to have used several times before. However, you would have thought that he would have twigged pretty quickly once the offensive nature of his words were pointed out, and just made an apology, but he doesn't seem to have taken that option. The quoted ITN source made it clear the dismissal wasn't just about one Tweet either. So as I said earlier, I think he has dug his own hole.
Woodster: BAME people are just as likely to be influenced by whitewashing as white people and perhaps don't feel comfortable enough to challenge the dominant culture. Just because they don't see insult in a comment doesn't mean that it's not there or that it has no detriment to them. You say that you are "middle class" I'm guessing that is to confirm that you are educated, however this gives you insulation from many of the more obvious adverse effects of racism. Unfortunately education can also entrench stereotypes into the psyche, ever studied the enlightenment? They all believed in the "science" behind eugenics and that there were different physiological classifications of humans, something I have been told is fact by the head of education at East Lothian Council.
Having read the thread in question it is clear that they were both argumentative (that's the nature of twitter) however it looks like AS was trying to squeeze in an ambiguous insult. It's a common tactic as they can then claim ignorance or lack of intent to offend, even if it does cause offence. However it does not only offend it causes detriment and harm as it embeds negative ideas into individuals and our society. The intent is negligible, especially when there's no recognition of the damage caused.
Martin isn't complaining about being offended, he's complaining about the catastrophic outcomes caused to people by casual racism especially when it's perpetuated by prominent people with influence.
More importantly, have we been given a clue into Percy’s real identity? *starts googling “ Alastair Panther”...*
More importantly, have we been given a clue into Percy’s real identity?
Perchy
by whitewashing as white people and perhaps don’t feel comfortable enough to challenge the dominant culture.
That’s a fantastic assumption on your part. My black wife and all of her black friends don’t seem to have forgotten their identity at all, and none of them are coy about speaking up about their ethnicity in the slightest in anyone’s company. I can’t imagine any of them missing the point of AS post. Indeed, my wife is rolling her eyes at this issue because of course she gets its, but she also gets the point of an attention seeking individual who goes out of his way - with reference to his Twitter history - to highlight himself over the issue of white supremacy.
Black people in the main don’t like this, they as all of us do like to demonstrate success but hard working and standing in society being recognised, something they’ve fought for many years as we know. They don’t want an idiot on Twitter stirring up a race row on their behalf to do so, because it inevitably paints a poor picture. If indeed they have to “earn” equality - which they shouldn’t have to - this isn’t the way they want to do it.
e.g. Would you accept Katie Hopkins represents white people? Yes she’s way more extreme by the example here - yet idiot internet warrior speaks up for her ethnic brethren by is cast aside for her methods and views aka we despise her and do not recognise her as a spokesperson in the slightest.
Katie Hopkins makes her living as a racist.
What's your point?
That this statement is incorrect in my experience:
BAME people are just as likely to be influenced by whitewashing as white people and perhaps don’t feel comfortable enough to challenge the dominant culture.
Then this:
Martin isn’t complaining about being offended, he’s complaining about the catastrophic outcomes caused to people by casual racism especially when it’s perpetuated by prominent people with influence.
Is utter hypocritical BS based on the evidence of the individual who highlights himself - without the support of his peers - as an apparent casual racist (allegedly).
*pulls up chair and fetches popcorn in anticipation of a shibboleth-type scenario*
In Borneo we use the term orang utan or monkey regardless of race. Most people just have a laugh about it as it means the person is mischievous. As far as we know most of our orang utan has red hairs and so are our Proboscis monkey so not sure if that will be misinterpreted if they are refer to people with red hairs.
Ranga is quite the insult to ginger haired folk in Australia.
Edit: just checked I hadn’t got that wrong and found the urban dictionary definition of red pubic hair as “Fanta pants”. Still laughing at that with a guilty look on my face.
50 years of loving living with redheads.
eddiebaby
Ranga is quite the insult to ginger haired folk in Australia.
Like most Australian "endearments" context is all.
Well Australia is a fairly racist country (yes I realise I have been racist by saying that!)
1)
Well Australia is a fairly racist country (yes I realise I have been racist by saying that!)
Technically, xenophobic but not racist (Australian isn't a race)
2) The tweet people have found isn't really racist in context, and not being forced to tiptoe about things/avoid certain words is quite important.
3) Yeah, obviously that point 2 doesn't mean Boris Johnstone's previous columns weren't racist, they massively were, they weren't just quotes from Shakespeare FFS.
4) I reckon there will be stuff beyond that tweet, it sounds like he's been a bit OTT in internet arguments. Using his real name in that context could well damage the brand he's working for.
Next?