MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
I suspect some poor bastard on minimum wage picks the grapes, processes the grapes, oversees the winification and bottling while people who get paid 4 or 5 times his wage sit in offices explaining that they are a massively valuable part of the whole grape to wine experience.
people who can, do; those who cannot, teach
This tired old 'joke' pisses me off. Teachers are essential and do a brilliant job under shit conditions, for the benefit if you and your kids. Don't slag them off in a shit attempt for a laugh 🙁
Charge lots to form a plan for a business to succeed, usually contains lots of change and lots of bullshit bingo phrases, If the business does get better they take credit, if it doesn’t they say the new plan wasn’t implemented properly. If they were genuinely good at running a business they’d have one of their own 😁
That's not what I understand as business analysis, from IT.
Three pages and it looks like the business analysts can’t agree on what business analysis consists of. The one at my place of work makes graphs, lots of graphs. Pie charts, line graphs, bar charts in all the colours of the rainbow.
Certainly some divisive views on what a BA does, and what (and why) they get paid for it.
I wonder if theres some raging jealousy in some people..
In the context of making software, a BA designs the software.
Three pages and it looks like the business analysts can’t agree on what business analysis consists of.
Probably because title can involve nearly any role from being involved in feasibility studies through to policy negotiation, getting operational input, the more traditional conduit between the business and the IT folk and right through to implementation and benefits realisation. Layer on top the type of industries they work in, and it gets even more diverse.
It's always struck me as it's a job that's just negotiating, and applying, common sense - not always an easy task in a project/programme 🙂
Edit: And a good BA can pretty much run a project; a bad one, with sufficient autonomy, can ruin it.
People who can do,
those who can’t teach,
those who can’t teach, teach teachers
Is the correct phrase.
I'm currently training director for an organisation that teaches teachers.... 😳
Those who can, do.
Those who can’t, teach.
Those who can’t teach, teach PE...
😉
Basically I agree with what molgrips, ihn and bearnecessities (and those who are aligned say). Good BAs, working with good business people, developers and architects can act as a controller of scope and expectations, so the project is shaped into something which will deliver something valuable and is needed (not just someone who says yes to whatever someone with big boots says they want). They will also align this, with technical roles' help, into something which is actually feasible to deliver, to a reasonably predictable time and cost. They will also contribute to understanding project risks as they emerge, and negotiating what is tolerable, and what requires mitigating action.
Now that might sound like a load of bullshit to some people, but that's because you probably don't understand the nuances of IT.
And just because you don't understand something, it doesn't mean it is easy, or has no value.
PS I am a software architect and work regularly with both good and bad BAs and other project roles.
PPS not surprising there is disagreement about exact shape of roles discussed here (ba, dev, architect, sys analyst, prj mgr etc) there are shades of grey between them all and it will depend on the shape of the project, development methodology, personalities and knowledge.
I have no tolerance for bullshit and buzzwords.
What I have found interesting in this debate is some of the folk who are BAs have explained the role well in plain english and another when challenged did the same. In plain english it makes sense assuming that these skills are lacking in the management. Of course a good manager should have those skills but in the absence of the management having those skills then bringing in somone who has makes sense. However if it becomes a smokescreen of buzzwords and bullshit then its a nonsense. If you can explain it clearly in plain english it may well have some value
Not something I ever thought I would see or say on here but I have seen too much crap management in my time who do not have the skills that the good BAs are supplying
Hmmm. I’m a Chartered Architect, and I’ve just spent all day in a room of engineers talking Very Light Rail. And they get still get surprised when I can talk the generalities of what they do (to enable us to deliver what we do together), despite being a Chartered Architect. Except for bogie engineers - cause that’s a world I just don’t need to know about.
I always thought a Business Analyst was someone who got dropped in to a workplace to work out how to sell off the bits that make money leaving everyone else in the lurch. 😉
In plain english it makes sense assuming that these skills are lacking in the management.
BAs are management.
And one of their most important skill-sets is applying that management, but further upwards 🙂
the role of a business analyst could be compared to that of the string quartet playing on the deck of the Titanic as it plunges to the bottom of the Atlantic…
Genuine lol, I’d have said that was more the PM. Maybe they are on leave having ensured they were on hols during implementation.
I have no tolerance for bullshit and buzzword
Lol, I'm a business analyst and my girlfriend is a nurse...she definitely talks in more buzzwords than I do. Hell, half of them are in Latin!! 😉😉
But, yeah, you need to know your audience when using buzzwords...when everyone in the room is on-the-same-page sometimes dropping in a buzzword in is a quick and easy way of getting everyone to understand a concept; sometimes buzzwords are actually related to a specific product or agreed industry-wide technique. The IT world is full of different products which do specific jobs and may be one of many to make a "whole product" work.
When discussing technology, these smaller product names and techniques maybe dropped into the conversation so the "techie" side know what's involved.
Any non-technical person is likely to be confused or feel left out of the conversation...hence one of the roles of a BA is to act as a filter and an interpreter for this kind of stuff: Sheltering the people who are expected to use the "whole product" from technical mumbo-jumbo:
Knowing enough about what they want to do, to answer obscure questions from developers about things no one thought about (but they have to code for to prevent they from doing something idiotic and crashing the system or corrupting their data).
IHN hit the nail on the head on the first page: the first question a BA should ask about a new project is: Why?
Once the true motivation for doing something is known, life becomes a lot more focussed for everyone involved in the project and they get to know what the end result is supposed to achieve.
Of course a good manager should have those skills
Not really, business analysis is a doing job not a managing job.
Three pages and it looks like the business analysts can’t agree on what business analysis consists of
Sounds like what we need there to unpick that is a business analyst...
Three pages and it looks like the business analysts can’t agree on what business analysis consists of
I think the BAs have explained pretty clearly what the job involves. Some interesting explanations from people that don't seem to have ever encountered a BA before, though!
Of course a good manager should have those skills but in the absence of the management having those skills then bringing in somone who has makes sense.
No, some project managers will get involved with the details of analysis, but manager and BA are different roles, different responsibilities, different skills. You don't "bring in" a BA to compensate for missing skills. It's a regular job that is a standard part of the team in most medium to large businesses that are IT based.
In actual real world practical terms , the role of a business analyst could be compared to that of the string quartet playing on the deck of the Titanic as it plunges to the bottom of the Atlantic…
I think you'll find the BAs avoid embarking on the voyage when they realised that management had de-scoped the requirement to provide enough lifeboats for all crew and passengers, to reduce costs...
business analysis is a doing job not a managing job.
Then you underestimate their worth 🙂
Amazing amount of job justification going on here, who's going to make the Emperor's new clothes?
And your experience in IT amounts to what exactly crikey?
Please explain what you look for in a well-run it project and what you perceive the challenges to be.
Amazing amount of job justification going on here, who’s going to make the Emperor’s new clothes?
Sure, whatever 😃
Not sure what you mean by "emperor's new clothes" quip though. It's hardly a new role...I've been doing it for several decades now and it definitely pre-dates me by several more decades even if it didn't use the same name all that time!
Enough of the corporate gobbledegook , this shits about to get real........
NASA detects giant asteroid on collision course with earth
An ark is build to save a small part of the population
Would business analysts be one of the occupations chosen as essential for the survival of mankind ?
Not on your f****ing nelly..
checkmate and nice knowing ya
😀
Amazing amount of job justification going on here, who’s going to make the Emperor’s new clothes?
No-one's suggesting projects don't need developers...?
I've been doing IT for 25 years, trust me when I say that big projects NEED good business analysis. Sometimes the job is done by other people with other titles, sometimes they are dedicated people. Good business analysis simply means that the project is actually doing what's needed in a way that will work. Surely you can see that this is important?
Every project, IT or otherwise, has people doing business analysis even if they aren't called that.
Would business analysts be one of the occupations chosen as essential for the survival of mankind ?
Not on your f****ing nelly..
Yes, the good ones would be right up at the front of the queue. Because they are the people who figure stuff out and get stuff done.
Yes, the good ones would be right up at the front of the queue. Because they are the people who figure stuff out and get stuff done.
If by "stuff" you mean flow charts & power point presentations i'd rather stay on earth and get vapourised., i have little faith in your version of mankinds survival
Interesting discussion. Maybe one of the BAs on here should head over to Wikipedia and edit it as whoever wrote the page on "Business Analyst" didn't seem to know what one is either. I particularly like:
...business analysts do not have a predefined and fixed role...
Ok brown sauce, let's see if you bite. Same question as crikey:
Your experience in IT amounts to what exactly?
Please explain what you look for in a well-run it project and what you perceive the challenges to be.
To me a good management team would not need an outside BA - they should have those skills. However as we know they do not always
I just keep thinking of a situation I saw where it was decided to computerise an area of work. To do so needs mobile computers. they obviously need wifi. the computers were bought even tho there is no wifi. Now they find there are significant issues with getting wifi. So the manager responsible has got dongles for them telling us that will work ( but we need a secure connection). there is no mobile reception in the building. the manager did not realise dongles us mobile data! However the process has been computerised. there was one fixed terminal and no prospect of getting the mobile ones working. Also most of the staff did not know how to use the computerised sytem. the computers just sat in a cupboard. But the staff were suposed to use the computerised system
From what I understand here this is the sort of situation albeit in a very small way that a BA should be able to avoid
There seems to be confusion between BAs and management consultants
To me a good management team would not need an outside BA – they should have those skills. However as we know they do not always
Surely a good health care management team don't need outside nurses - they should have those skills?
Like a cross between sales, account managers and project managers, in an IT context.
I was going out with one for few weeks, she was a nightmare.
Yeah the ba should contribute to solving that sort of thing tj, also architects. This is what I am saying about defining scope.land keeping it feasible. That is an easy thing for me to say in a sentence but in reality is often very difficult.
The point you make about things 'seeming obvious' is a good one. In hindsight it often is. It is a lot, lot harder, to fully think through all of the requirements, consequences, problems, etc. Solutions to those problems. Let alone getting people to agree about it all (even, mutually understand it and talk in the same language about it) and sign off on often large amounts of £ for the implementation.
If by “stuff” you mean flow charts & power point presentations i’d rather stay on earth and get vapourised., i have little faith in your version of mankinds survival
Where do I download the killfile, again?
el_boufador
My slightly aspie brain leads me to incredible detailed planning on stuff. . I plan stuff to such detail that when executing I rarely even need to think - just follow the process I have laid out. recent complete refurb of the flat was done like this. almost all decisions made before I even lifted a hammer
Its only recently I have realised this is unusual. Stupid weird brain
Like a cross between sales, account managers and project managers, in an IT context
When I get into work tomorrow, first thing I'm asking is when I get a shot at all this project management, sales, account management and UX design that my job apparently involves!
A lot of business analysis is about cutting through crap, so it's steady work...
Dare I ask wht UX is?
Fair enough tj but now try to do the same whilst including other people who have different aspirations, goals, assumptions, attitudes to risk, knowledge, and so on. Throw in some bullshitters, wideboys, control freaks and toxic personalities for good measure
And also try to solve a much more complex problem no one person can fully understand the detail of.
Not easy
User eXperience.
NASA detects giant asteroid on collision course with earth
An ark is build to save a small part of the population
Would business analysts be one of the occupations chosen as essential for the survival of mankind ?
From what I understand from this thread (and because it's what I'd do), a business analyst would be going "what clucking good is a boat, what you need there is a rocket or spaceship, and a sensible destination to a new habitable location."
User eXperience.
Essentially a vastly undervalued profession, someone who talks to people who actually use systems being developed and finds out what they want, how they work, what their workflow is and how to align systems to match that; and whether a 'save' icon needs to look like a floppy disk, a baseball catcher or Odie from the Garfield cartoons.
I mention the latter as an example because that actually happened.
@tj -
now UX is definitely worth the while (when done well). In the the physical realm it might be 'Product Design' perhaps.
I think it's basically "making things user friendly", whether on an app, a mobile phone, a website etc. You'd use a combination of graphic design, user testing, statistics, find out what people want to do, and how you might make that process as smooth and simple as possible.
Good UX design should be almost invisible. A bit like the cockpit of a car, I guess (though that's fairly well established now) - ideally you won't really notice the indicator stalk, unless it's in the wrong place in which case it would be infuriating. But someone still had to design it, think about it, make sure it felt right.
From what I understand here this is the sort of situation albeit in a very small way that a BA should be able to avoid
Yes spot on TJ, if they know the area and are any good (and more importantly have actually been listened to rather than concerns about viability ignored by management)
UX, in plain English is how a person uses something. They are supposed to be able to make sure a site meets its primary purpose and be as easy to use and initiative for the user, not piss the user off, improving the conversion rate (in ecom that's sales per hit or things like reducing abandoned baskets)
This forum could do with some UX.....
Now I do get a bit muddled between UX and UD - I think they are basically the same thing with people getting ever more specialist in smaller and small bits of work (which isn't useful in a small company imo). I'm told quite firmly (by the UD and UX folks) they are very different and very critical roles....
I suppose liken it to trades we often discuss on here. Getting your bathroom done, you can get a pretty good allrounder to do the whole thing, or you can go as specialist as getting in a guy who just does the siliconing. It'll probably be a better finish, but it'll be a bugger to orchestrate all the trades, cost more and take longer. I'd go with the good allrounder and get a satisfactory finish sooner and cheaper...of course on massive projects, specialists do work out to be more efficient
This forum could do with some UX…..
Late entry for understatement of the year right here.
Our UX person has been invaluable and - apart from talking to actual users - the main benefit has been turning ideas and requirements into wireframes that the developers and designer can use to build the actual product.
Essentially a vastly undervalued profession, someone who talks to people who actually use systems being developed and finds out what they want, how they work, what their workflow is and how to align systems to match that
This could also be an excellent explanation of what a BA does.
FWIW, as a BA I've worked very closely with UXrs on a number of projects. Like BAs, good ones are worth their weight in gold, bad ones just make everything difficult.
Broad-brush wise, BAs tend to focus on what the thing needs to do, UXrs tend to focus on how the person will use the thing. Clearly the two areas need to be aligned, which is why BAs and UXrs often work alongside each other.
People who are besmirching the need for BAs tend to be the kind of people who think "it's just computers". It's not quite as simple as that.
Essentially a vastly undervalued profession, someone who talks to people who actually use systems being developed and finds out what they want, how they work, what their workflow is and how to align systems to match that; and whether a ‘save’ icon needs to look like a floppy disk, a baseball catcher or Odie from the Garfield cartoons.
WANTS? FFS!
WANTS? FFS!
What they want isn't what they're going to get, but it's polite to humour them 😉
aka don't ask users what they want – watch what they do
I was waiting for that to appear
Dare I ask wht UX is?
https://www.google.com/search?q=ux
Sometimes you just need a BA to help you find information, even when it is freely available...
I'm a Business Analyst and I don't have a fancy laptop 🙁
Whomever said that mostly good BA's are contractors, and poor ones permanent, I've found the opposite. The worst one's I've worked with were all contractors.
The best BA I worked with was a contractor.
The worst BA I worked with was a contractor.
I am not sure what this observation tells us.
Actually can I retract that? 'Best' and 'worst' distinction entirely biased, subjective, meaningless and unfair on my part.
Whomever said that mostly good BA’s are contractors, and poor ones permanent,
That was me
The best BA I worked with was a contractor.
Me too
The worst BA I worked with was a contractor.
Me too
I am not sure what this observation tells us.
There's bloody tonnes of contract BAs. Like me 🙂
‘Best’ and ‘worst’ distinction entirely biased, subjective, meaningless and unfair on my part.
In my defence, the one I rate as the best was (and is) universally acknowledged by anyone she works with as being brilliant. And the one I rate as worst was universally acknowledged by anyone he worked with as being utterly and literally effing useless.
This forum could do with some UX…..
It's coming. Soon.
It’s coming. Soon.
You could be an Account Manager.
Or a developer.
I knew I'd be met with 'hilarious' cynicism when I posted that. I don't know why I bother sometimes.
I don't really think contract BA's are a great idea....unless they come with specialist knowledge of new domain or tech for the business (or you have no choice and capacity issues)
Contractor BAs tend to not have the depth of specific business knowledge needed to be really useful, nor the key working relationships with the right people.
If its something like replacing an ERP system which is a (hopefully) one off type investment, yes contractors work, but most of our stuff is quite unique and ongoing. Contractors won't have the knowledge, or worse letting them skill up, then bugger off taking all the knowledge with them.
Most of the contractor BA's (and PM's) I have had the pleasure of dealing with are mostly about the same as (motivated) perms but without the intimate business knowledge. Definitely the worse BA's and PM's I have worked with have been contractors who were complete con artists seeing how long they could spin a gig out before they were busted.
(in my experience of managing teams of BA's and PM's and spending a couple of years rebuilding a perm capability)
My understanding so far from this thread....
Good BA vs Bad BA:
Customer – I want a boat
Bad BA – What kind of boat?
Good BA – Why?
I can do that, where is my £40k a year?
add UX to BA title
Easy done, now where is my £80k?
Apply for a job then. Seriously - it's a low barrier for entry!
WANTS? FFS!
Customer is not always right, in IT. What they think they want isn't what they really need. See Brexit for an example (sorry).
Customer is not always right, in IT. What they think they want isn’t what they really need.
Someone please tell my colleagues this?
Customer is not always right, in IT. What they think they want isn’t what they really need.
There's a kernel of truth in that, however there's also an overriding culture of smug we-know-better-than-you-ness among software devs, which is very often misplaced - with the product sometimes being delivered in a form that simply makes their lives easier.
See the "tail wagging the dog" comment on a previous page.
What they think they want isn’t what they really need.
there’s also an overriding culture of smug we-know-better-than-you-ness among software devs, which is very often misplaced
If only there was someone who could bridge the gap between these two viewpoints...
I can do that, where is my £40k a year?
£40k. How sweet 😉
What IHN said!
Customer is not always right, devs are not always right. Although I would say that if you ignore protests from devs, you end up forcing requirements that can't be met on the team, which means you'll get corners cut, rushed jobs, mistakes, and then when you complain the devs will say 'we bloody tried to tell you and you wouldn't listen!'
Listen to the devs, respect the devs. They may not be able to express the problem clearly but they usually aren't lazy and they usually understand the problems. It's not a good idea to dictate terms on something you don't really understand...
and
Listen to the business, respect the business. They may not be able to express the problem clearly but they usually aren’t lazy and they usually understand the problems. It’s not a good idea to dictate terms on something you don’t really understand…
A good BA can talk both languages, business and dev, and gains the trust of both 'ends' to represent them and their concerns to the other. If I say to the business that something they want is really hard technically, so they may want to reconsider it, they know it's not 'IT' trying to fob them off. If I say to the devs that although something is hard technically, it is really important, then they know it's not the business asking for pointless bells and whistles.
As a BA, I want everyone to have a common understanding of what we’re trying to achieve so we can deliver the right stuff.
This is generally achieved by asking loads of questions, not necessarily caring about all the answers, but using those to ensure everyone has a common understanding. This typically involves business reps, software engineers, design folk (HCD, business architects etc) and testers all working together to solve problems. I’ll be involved right the way through a project, doing whatever I can to maximise the amount of work not done - why build the whizzy expensive system when you can get 80% of the value for 20% of the effort?
Experience of the subject matter is important, but sometimes too much experience can be a bad thing, as bad BAs can rely on that instead of getting the answers from others.
add UX to BA title
Easy done, now where is my £80k?
80K? How sweet.
Love the idea of rocking up and saying you're a "BA-UX". Come to think of it, there's one agency I know of in particular that would snap you up.
Apparently.
add UX to BA title
Easy done, now where is my £80k?
80K? How sweet.
Wait till IR35 comes in..
£35k, how sweet.
Of course, any BA worth their day rate will already have reimagined themselves as a full stack (obvs) Product Manager.
What do BAs do? They pity the fool
What don’t they do? Get on no damn plane fool
Is there a particular reason the BA's seem to be referred to here exclusively in the IT project domain?
By me, it's cos I work in IT so those are the only kind I know 🙂
I thought it was the typical STW stereotype?
In my place we used to have ‘business’ BAs, and IT BAs, but now the lines are blurred somewhat as we move towards Agile delivery - albeit at a glacial pace overall.
Is there a particular reason the BA’s seem to be referred to here exclusively in the IT project domain?
Because it is mainly an IT role. The old waterfall model for software development had four phases - requirements, design, build, test. The BAs we responsible for the requirements bit. It's often a bit more complicated than that these days, but it's still a BA's job to figure out what a business really needs, as opposed to what they are asking for.
It tends to pay a bit better than testing, but less well than development or design and architecture.
As a BA, I want everyone to have a common understanding of what we’re trying to achieve so we can deliver the right stuff.
I see what you did there! 😃