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Basically I agree with what molgrips, ihn and bearnecessities (and those who are aligned say). Good BAs, working with good business people, developers and architects can act as a controller of scope and expectations, so the project is shaped into something which will deliver something valuable and is needed (not just someone who says yes to whatever someone with big boots says they want). They will also align this, with technical roles' help, into something which is actually feasible to deliver, to a reasonably predictable time and cost. They will also contribute to understanding project risks as they emerge, and negotiating what is tolerable, and what requires mitigating action.
Now that might sound like a load of bullshit to some people, but that's because you probably don't understand the nuances of IT.
And just because you don't understand something, it doesn't mean it is easy, or has no value.
PS I am a software architect and work regularly with both good and bad BAs and other project roles.
PPS not surprising there is disagreement about exact shape of roles discussed here (ba, dev, architect, sys analyst, prj mgr etc) there are shades of grey between them all and it will depend on the shape of the project, development methodology, personalities and knowledge.
I have no tolerance for bullshit and buzzwords.
What I have found interesting in this debate is some of the folk who are BAs have explained the role well in plain english and another when challenged did the same. In plain english it makes sense assuming that these skills are lacking in the management. Of course a good manager should have those skills but in the absence of the management having those skills then bringing in somone who has makes sense. However if it becomes a smokescreen of buzzwords and bullshit then its a nonsense. If you can explain it clearly in plain english it may well have some value
Not something I ever thought I would see or say on here but I have seen too much crap management in my time who do not have the skills that the good BAs are supplying
Hmmm. I’m a Chartered Architect, and I’ve just spent all day in a room of engineers talking Very Light Rail. And they get still get surprised when I can talk the generalities of what they do (to enable us to deliver what we do together), despite being a Chartered Architect. Except for bogie engineers - cause that’s a world I just don’t need to know about.
I always thought a Business Analyst was someone who got dropped in to a workplace to work out how to sell off the bits that make money leaving everyone else in the lurch. 😉
In plain english it makes sense assuming that these skills are lacking in the management.
BAs are management.
And one of their most important skill-sets is applying that management, but further upwards 🙂
the role of a business analyst could be compared to that of the string quartet playing on the deck of the Titanic as it plunges to the bottom of the Atlantic…
Genuine lol, I’d have said that was more the PM. Maybe they are on leave having ensured they were on hols during implementation.
I have no tolerance for bullshit and buzzword
Lol, I'm a business analyst and my girlfriend is a nurse...she definitely talks in more buzzwords than I do. Hell, half of them are in Latin!! 😉😉
But, yeah, you need to know your audience when using buzzwords...when everyone in the room is on-the-same-page sometimes dropping in a buzzword in is a quick and easy way of getting everyone to understand a concept; sometimes buzzwords are actually related to a specific product or agreed industry-wide technique. The IT world is full of different products which do specific jobs and may be one of many to make a "whole product" work.
When discussing technology, these smaller product names and techniques maybe dropped into the conversation so the "techie" side know what's involved.
Any non-technical person is likely to be confused or feel left out of the conversation...hence one of the roles of a BA is to act as a filter and an interpreter for this kind of stuff: Sheltering the people who are expected to use the "whole product" from technical mumbo-jumbo:
Knowing enough about what they want to do, to answer obscure questions from developers about things no one thought about (but they have to code for to prevent they from doing something idiotic and crashing the system or corrupting their data).
IHN hit the nail on the head on the first page: the first question a BA should ask about a new project is: Why?
Once the true motivation for doing something is known, life becomes a lot more focussed for everyone involved in the project and they get to know what the end result is supposed to achieve.
Of course a good manager should have those skills
Not really, business analysis is a doing job not a managing job.
Three pages and it looks like the business analysts can’t agree on what business analysis consists of
Sounds like what we need there to unpick that is a business analyst...
Three pages and it looks like the business analysts can’t agree on what business analysis consists of
I think the BAs have explained pretty clearly what the job involves. Some interesting explanations from people that don't seem to have ever encountered a BA before, though!
Of course a good manager should have those skills but in the absence of the management having those skills then bringing in somone who has makes sense.
No, some project managers will get involved with the details of analysis, but manager and BA are different roles, different responsibilities, different skills. You don't "bring in" a BA to compensate for missing skills. It's a regular job that is a standard part of the team in most medium to large businesses that are IT based.
In actual real world practical terms , the role of a business analyst could be compared to that of the string quartet playing on the deck of the Titanic as it plunges to the bottom of the Atlantic…
I think you'll find the BAs avoid embarking on the voyage when they realised that management had de-scoped the requirement to provide enough lifeboats for all crew and passengers, to reduce costs...
business analysis is a doing job not a managing job.
Then you underestimate their worth 🙂
Amazing amount of job justification going on here, who's going to make the Emperor's new clothes?
And your experience in IT amounts to what exactly crikey?
Please explain what you look for in a well-run it project and what you perceive the challenges to be.
Amazing amount of job justification going on here, who’s going to make the Emperor’s new clothes?
Sure, whatever 😃
Not sure what you mean by "emperor's new clothes" quip though. It's hardly a new role...I've been doing it for several decades now and it definitely pre-dates me by several more decades even if it didn't use the same name all that time!
Enough of the corporate gobbledegook , this shits about to get real........
NASA detects giant asteroid on collision course with earth
An ark is build to save a small part of the population
Would business analysts be one of the occupations chosen as essential for the survival of mankind ?
Not on your f****ing nelly..
checkmate and nice knowing ya
😀
Amazing amount of job justification going on here, who’s going to make the Emperor’s new clothes?
No-one's suggesting projects don't need developers...?
I've been doing IT for 25 years, trust me when I say that big projects NEED good business analysis. Sometimes the job is done by other people with other titles, sometimes they are dedicated people. Good business analysis simply means that the project is actually doing what's needed in a way that will work. Surely you can see that this is important?
Every project, IT or otherwise, has people doing business analysis even if they aren't called that.
Would business analysts be one of the occupations chosen as essential for the survival of mankind ?
Not on your f****ing nelly..
Yes, the good ones would be right up at the front of the queue. Because they are the people who figure stuff out and get stuff done.
Yes, the good ones would be right up at the front of the queue. Because they are the people who figure stuff out and get stuff done.
If by "stuff" you mean flow charts & power point presentations i'd rather stay on earth and get vapourised., i have little faith in your version of mankinds survival
Interesting discussion. Maybe one of the BAs on here should head over to Wikipedia and edit it as whoever wrote the page on "Business Analyst" didn't seem to know what one is either. I particularly like:
...business analysts do not have a predefined and fixed role...
Ok brown sauce, let's see if you bite. Same question as crikey:
Your experience in IT amounts to what exactly?
Please explain what you look for in a well-run it project and what you perceive the challenges to be.
To me a good management team would not need an outside BA - they should have those skills. However as we know they do not always
I just keep thinking of a situation I saw where it was decided to computerise an area of work. To do so needs mobile computers. they obviously need wifi. the computers were bought even tho there is no wifi. Now they find there are significant issues with getting wifi. So the manager responsible has got dongles for them telling us that will work ( but we need a secure connection). there is no mobile reception in the building. the manager did not realise dongles us mobile data! However the process has been computerised. there was one fixed terminal and no prospect of getting the mobile ones working. Also most of the staff did not know how to use the computerised sytem. the computers just sat in a cupboard. But the staff were suposed to use the computerised system
From what I understand here this is the sort of situation albeit in a very small way that a BA should be able to avoid
There seems to be confusion between BAs and management consultants
To me a good management team would not need an outside BA – they should have those skills. However as we know they do not always
Surely a good health care management team don't need outside nurses - they should have those skills?
Like a cross between sales, account managers and project managers, in an IT context.
I was going out with one for few weeks, she was a nightmare.
Yeah the ba should contribute to solving that sort of thing tj, also architects. This is what I am saying about defining scope.land keeping it feasible. That is an easy thing for me to say in a sentence but in reality is often very difficult.
The point you make about things 'seeming obvious' is a good one. In hindsight it often is. It is a lot, lot harder, to fully think through all of the requirements, consequences, problems, etc. Solutions to those problems. Let alone getting people to agree about it all (even, mutually understand it and talk in the same language about it) and sign off on often large amounts of £ for the implementation.
If by “stuff” you mean flow charts & power point presentations i’d rather stay on earth and get vapourised., i have little faith in your version of mankinds survival
Where do I download the killfile, again?
el_boufador
My slightly aspie brain leads me to incredible detailed planning on stuff. . I plan stuff to such detail that when executing I rarely even need to think - just follow the process I have laid out. recent complete refurb of the flat was done like this. almost all decisions made before I even lifted a hammer
Its only recently I have realised this is unusual. Stupid weird brain
Like a cross between sales, account managers and project managers, in an IT context
When I get into work tomorrow, first thing I'm asking is when I get a shot at all this project management, sales, account management and UX design that my job apparently involves!
A lot of business analysis is about cutting through crap, so it's steady work...
Dare I ask wht UX is?
Fair enough tj but now try to do the same whilst including other people who have different aspirations, goals, assumptions, attitudes to risk, knowledge, and so on. Throw in some bullshitters, wideboys, control freaks and toxic personalities for good measure
And also try to solve a much more complex problem no one person can fully understand the detail of.
Not easy
User eXperience.
NASA detects giant asteroid on collision course with earth
An ark is build to save a small part of the population
Would business analysts be one of the occupations chosen as essential for the survival of mankind ?
From what I understand from this thread (and because it's what I'd do), a business analyst would be going "what clucking good is a boat, what you need there is a rocket or spaceship, and a sensible destination to a new habitable location."
User eXperience.
Essentially a vastly undervalued profession, someone who talks to people who actually use systems being developed and finds out what they want, how they work, what their workflow is and how to align systems to match that; and whether a 'save' icon needs to look like a floppy disk, a baseball catcher or Odie from the Garfield cartoons.
I mention the latter as an example because that actually happened.
@tj -
now UX is definitely worth the while (when done well). In the the physical realm it might be 'Product Design' perhaps.
I think it's basically "making things user friendly", whether on an app, a mobile phone, a website etc. You'd use a combination of graphic design, user testing, statistics, find out what people want to do, and how you might make that process as smooth and simple as possible.
Good UX design should be almost invisible. A bit like the cockpit of a car, I guess (though that's fairly well established now) - ideally you won't really notice the indicator stalk, unless it's in the wrong place in which case it would be infuriating. But someone still had to design it, think about it, make sure it felt right.
From what I understand here this is the sort of situation albeit in a very small way that a BA should be able to avoid
Yes spot on TJ, if they know the area and are any good (and more importantly have actually been listened to rather than concerns about viability ignored by management)
UX, in plain English is how a person uses something. They are supposed to be able to make sure a site meets its primary purpose and be as easy to use and initiative for the user, not piss the user off, improving the conversion rate (in ecom that's sales per hit or things like reducing abandoned baskets)
This forum could do with some UX.....
Now I do get a bit muddled between UX and UD - I think they are basically the same thing with people getting ever more specialist in smaller and small bits of work (which isn't useful in a small company imo). I'm told quite firmly (by the UD and UX folks) they are very different and very critical roles....
I suppose liken it to trades we often discuss on here. Getting your bathroom done, you can get a pretty good allrounder to do the whole thing, or you can go as specialist as getting in a guy who just does the siliconing. It'll probably be a better finish, but it'll be a bugger to orchestrate all the trades, cost more and take longer. I'd go with the good allrounder and get a satisfactory finish sooner and cheaper...of course on massive projects, specialists do work out to be more efficient
This forum could do with some UX…..
Late entry for understatement of the year right here.
Our UX person has been invaluable and - apart from talking to actual users - the main benefit has been turning ideas and requirements into wireframes that the developers and designer can use to build the actual product.
Essentially a vastly undervalued profession, someone who talks to people who actually use systems being developed and finds out what they want, how they work, what their workflow is and how to align systems to match that
This could also be an excellent explanation of what a BA does.
FWIW, as a BA I've worked very closely with UXrs on a number of projects. Like BAs, good ones are worth their weight in gold, bad ones just make everything difficult.
Broad-brush wise, BAs tend to focus on what the thing needs to do, UXrs tend to focus on how the person will use the thing. Clearly the two areas need to be aligned, which is why BAs and UXrs often work alongside each other.
People who are besmirching the need for BAs tend to be the kind of people who think "it's just computers". It's not quite as simple as that.
Essentially a vastly undervalued profession, someone who talks to people who actually use systems being developed and finds out what they want, how they work, what their workflow is and how to align systems to match that; and whether a ‘save’ icon needs to look like a floppy disk, a baseball catcher or Odie from the Garfield cartoons.
WANTS? FFS!
WANTS? FFS!
What they want isn't what they're going to get, but it's polite to humour them 😉
aka don't ask users what they want – watch what they do
I was waiting for that to appear
Dare I ask wht UX is?
https://www.google.com/search?q=ux
Sometimes you just need a BA to help you find information, even when it is freely available...
I'm a Business Analyst and I don't have a fancy laptop 🙁
Whomever said that mostly good BA's are contractors, and poor ones permanent, I've found the opposite. The worst one's I've worked with were all contractors.
The best BA I worked with was a contractor.
The worst BA I worked with was a contractor.
I am not sure what this observation tells us.
Actually can I retract that? 'Best' and 'worst' distinction entirely biased, subjective, meaningless and unfair on my part.
Whomever said that mostly good BA’s are contractors, and poor ones permanent,
That was me
The best BA I worked with was a contractor.
Me too
The worst BA I worked with was a contractor.
Me too
I am not sure what this observation tells us.
There's bloody tonnes of contract BAs. Like me 🙂