[Closed] 'We're all in this together yeah?'

Emily maitliss went off on a similar rant 👏 on newsnight earlier,
https://twitter.com/dawnhfoster/status/1248026237903212544?s=21

I'm with you OP but too much power is with the press and how they can spin any potential change to suit the rich.

What safe guard are you proposing are put in place?

I agree, there is something fundamentally wrong with businesses (be they banks, airlines or rail companies) paying out billions in dividends over a decade then when a known business risk is realised need baling out, only to start that cycle again.

Privatise the profit, nationalise the risk.

You would need to come up with a fairly spectacular argument that the system we have is so good at creating wealth and prosperity vs the alternatives that this glaring flaw is a price worth paying.

Should Labour engage in some form of government of national unity or go in for the kill?

From the other thread

I only ever voted Labour or SNP, I think once for TUSC as a protest vote.

If Labour try and use this cynically for political gain I’ll likely never vote for them again.

So I guess my vote is national unity

There’s no way that things can go back to ‘business as usual’

I’m hoping that there’s going to be one almighty reckoning coming for the parasites like Branson, Phillip Green and Mike Ashley who are expecting to be bailed out with the taxes they’ve dedicated their business lives to avoiding.

The whole tax system needs reforming. Tax-dodgers like Amazon are doing very nicely out the high street being shut (and in a lot of cases gone forever) they need to now be forced into paying their fair share.

My hope is that there is now the political will to finally say enough is enough for this obscene inequality where companies and rich individuals make billions in profit and contribute next to nothing back in taxes

There is a way and I think you know it

It’s just you don’t want it, neither do I with the issues you raise

The whole tax system needs reforming. Tax-dodgers like Amazon are doing very nicely out the high street being shut (and in a lot of cases gone forever) they need to now be forced into paying their fair share.

It's difficult though, how do you tax "efficiency".

How do you define a tax that targets Amazon, but doesn't penalize small online retailers?

Or Starbucks, but doesn't penalize small cafe's. Starbucks offshore their profit by claiming the licence fee for using their logo is paid to a subsidiary elsewhere. But how do you write a rule that stops that without taxing your local cafe when they come to you and your crayons for a new logo?

I know in past years the oil industry had to pay one off windfall taxes in good years, could the same be done for Amazon, Starbucks, Vodaphone etc? Rather than setting out rules that say you must pay 30% tax on this, and them finding ways to eliminate anything in the "this" column of their accounts. Just send them a letter in April saying "we've decided you owe us £...million, there is no appeal process". There could still be a formula based on a percentage of income plus say offsets for paying the living wage, number of staff employed etc, but it would be upto HMRC to determine the numbers not tax accountants.

If Labour try and use this cynically for political gain I’ll likely never vote for them again.

It’s an odd one this.

I remember being sat in the office with my m8 wondering when the government were going to actually start shutting things down as it felt like the calm before the storm moment, this was probably the week before the bath half marathon,which still happened although the London one had been cancelled:-(

Watching Italy unfolding and continuing as normal seemed really weird.

Then finally they did the half arsed suggested stuff and not even shutting the pub down immediately so people could have a jolly.

Mrs DOD even flew in from Spain on the last flight with no temp check and DOD’s unca Cyril got the last flight from Toronto again just rammed on a buss and rushed thru no checks again.

So as I get Labour not using this cynically but in in my heart of hearts I’m not sure attacking the people who gave us Italian numbers instead of German or South Korean numbers is actually cynical.

So as I get Labour not using this cynically but in in my heart of hearts I’m not sure attacking the people who gave us Italian numbers instead of German or South Korean numbers is actually cynical.

I got told to "not be nasty" when I pointed out that perhaps 10 years of austerity might be contributing to why we don't have the labs to do the testing in and why hospitals were already at capacity even before this.

Sure you don't plan for every eventuality, but this could have been anything that put a strain on the NHS.

So I guess my vote is national unity

Even with my earlier rant I’m all for this, there is no time for politics.

We need to accept that more tax must be paid to finance national infrastructure.

The NHS needs massive investment and not PFI funded bollocks. We have to accept that it will be expensive and possibly "inefficient".

We need to look to re-nationalise key areas, transport, power etc.

Five things that opposition parties should be pushing on:

1) a more presidential style of government, as introduced by Johnson & Cummings, leaves the country exposed if the small core team is out of action

2) the deliberate delaying of measures to control this virus was a poor decision, we had seen what had happened elsewhere, we needed action, and the reasons given for not doing so were very questionable at the time, and with hindsight there is no way to deny that

3) the actions of this PM before and after taking his post created a nursing crisis that was already costing lives, and paired with this long predicted pandemic, is the UK’s biggest weak point, nurses really matter

4) we don’t have enough police for this, and it was a political decision to deliberately reduce the number of police by the amount that England has

5) not listening to, and working properly with, our European neighbours, wasn’t a mistake, it was a mindset, a highly damaging one

I’m hoping that there’s going to be one almighty reckoning coming for the parasites like Branson, Phillip Green and Mike Ashley who are expecting to be bailed out with the taxes they’ve dedicated their business lives to avoiding.

Dont hold your breath!

Trump and Boris with their anti foreigner views will come out of all of this empowered. (Presuming Boris survives of course)

No need for a government of national unity. The tories have a good majority. No way labour should support this bunch of incompetent loons.

As for the future the tories will push no deal brexit through and then blame all the economic damage on corona then use it as an excuse for turbo charged austerity.

Remember this what their paymasters want

How do you define a tax that targets Amazon

Tax at location of point of sale, not some bullshine made up office address in the Caymans.

If they want to sell things here, then they pay appropriate tax for here.

The whole tax system needs reforming. Tax-dodgers like Amazon are doing very nicely out the high street being shut (and in a lot of cases gone forever) they need to now be forced into paying their fair share.

I can't believe you spend so long spewing vitriol against Corbyn on here nearly every day, then you come out and advocate one of his policies! That's some brass neck.

and +1 for post by @kelvin

I'm all for point 4) being expanded to include NHS, and assorted other essential public services / utilities that simply have not performed under the crappy PFI schemes.

edit: this thread could use a proper (serious?) title BTW

It’s an odd one this.

Fortunately their are alternative parties.

Go for the throat when things are under control certainly. Which I didn’t make clear tbf

Those same argumemts can be applied to Scotland too. Every cut budget was a political decision, we've been running the NHS on its arse up here for years whilst people are happy to blame Westminster.

Centralisation is brilliant until something like this rips through a super campus or super hospital, schools are shut but we can't shut hospitals.

As for the "high street", Intu were in a £2bn black hole before this began, I'd be delighted if they and the other vapid out of town hell holes went under.

I can’t believe you spend so long spewing vitriol against Corbyn on here nearly every day, then you come out and advocate one of his policies! That’s some brass neck.

i'm not sure Corbyn can claim ownership of the idea of 'getting people to pay their fare share of tax'.

I can’t believe you spend so long spewing vitriol against Corbyn on here nearly every day, then you come out and advocate one of his policies! That’s some brass neck.

Like a lot of people, I don't have a problem with much of what Corbyn's policies represented. But I don't think the bunch or ex-commies that he surrounded himself with had any business being anywhere remotely near No10.

So I guess my vote is national unity

National unity is a worthwhile objective if it actually delivers a concrete plan to address the crisis.

If national unity just means not criticising the failings in our current "leadership", it's not much use. That's just everyone being polite to each other as the ship goes down.

Those in power currently find national unity useful, so as usual we are all in this together - until we are not.

Expect to hear lot's of 'now's not the time for polictics', 'now's not the time for critiscism, we should all pull together', until it's all over when it will be; 'well, what's done is done, why don't you move on, look here's a shiny bauble or a new bit of drama'.

National Unity would look like ensuring the state was in a position to handle a crisis like this and it was managed effectivley.

If Labour try and use this cynically for political gain I’ll likely never vote for them again.

While I agree with you, I am certain the BoJo and Cummings are already/will cynically use CV19 as a propaganda tool to frame Boris as a safe pair of hands in a crisis (made worse to some extent by their own actions), relying on sympathetic words in the aligned rags and the public's short memories.

Boris was already looking to Channel Winston as the beleaguered great leader before he ended up in the ICU. The language used in press conferences has been about "winning battles" and "wars" on an unseen "enemy", as if sheer force of will and conviction will ward off respiratory failure.
The reality is that the most vulnerable people to CV19 in our society also happen to be some of the lowest paid with the least influence.

We're in this for the long haul with a quick fix & rhetoric merchant at the helm, The UK will, like the rest of the world, take a kicking over the next two years, as things stand it's the poorest in society most likely to feel the fullest effects of that kicking...

Now Starmer is apparently sitting in on various meetings (and being made a privy councillor?) I would like to see him performing the role a "responsible opposition" leader; supporting and challenging the government where appropriate, but also keeping his notes for the inevitable dissection that follows. He's already asked for the "Exit Strategy" to be published, one assumes that he is asking for this because he knows there is one and believes publishing it would be in the public interest...

How about we start this great renaissance with all of you lot who voted Tory apologising for putting the NHS in this position?

While I agree with you, I am certain the BoJo and Cummings are already/will cynically use CV19 as a propaganda tool

I don’t doubt that

But I’ll not be voting for them regardless

I'm sorry,but if you think anything will change after this, you're deluded.
The rich will look after their money, and their share holders profits, and the rest of the world will pay for this for eternity. Our taxes will bale out company after company at our expense, and the people at the top will **** off to somewhere sunny with all the money. again.

We haven't been all in this together since the 70's or before. Since the Thatcher governments everyone is in it for themselves with those in power being able to take advantage of that.

People have the choice of a government that would be more about society (dare I say socialist) but they don't want that - or at least they don't think they do based on what they have been told over the last 40 years combined with their own greed...

How about we start this great renaissance with all of you lot who voted Tory apologising for putting the NHS in this position?

But, but, but , sputter sputter, that would mean that in a democracy we, the people, would have to take responsibility for the actions of the goverment we elected.

Not an idea with any legs on it in my view. I get the feeling that the UK population generally regards government as something that is done to it rather than being part of the process.

We appear to be in an abusive relationship with the Tory party.

We haven’t been all in this together since the 70’s or before. Since the Thatcher governments

Yep, I think it took about 35-50 years maybe, to dismantle the post-war settlement. The similarities between now and the world of the '30's is quite startling. I don't know if Covid-19 is the spark that will bring some sort of societal re configuring. (I doubt it)

bunch or ex-commies

how quaint

We haven’t been all in this together since the 70’s

Were we all in it together in the 60s and 70s?

I ask, because I wasn't there, or if I was I was in nappies.

I’m sorry,but if you think anything will change after this, you’re deluded.

This.

After the dust settles, we'll all go back to the way things used to be.

We might be able to vote in a party that turns on the taps in the direction of the NHS and public services a bit more, and dials back the useless PFI mechanism that allows private companies to trouser large contract payments for very little end product.

But we won't be overturning the social order.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/mps-given-10000-extra-to-help-them-work-from-home-during-coronavirus-outbreak

🐷🐷

Absolutely, all in this together https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/mps-given-10000-extra-to-help-them-work-from-home-during-coronavirus-outbreak

I'll be fine on my fold out table, earning a third of an MPs salary and with zero expenses.

The NHS are doing fine with their cobbled together PPE.

Edit: bugger, while I was ranting about that @bruneep beat me to the posting!

how quaint

If only “ex-commies” wasn’t an accurate term. But it is. “Millionaire ex-commies” in the case of key advisors.

Here we go… an “ex-commie” for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Murray_(trade_unionist)

I agree the odds are stacked against the individual.

Governments and Tax Authorities often want / try to have a fair system but they're outnumbered and outgunned by Accountants and Lawyers who have zero concern about the spirit of laws/rules only what they can get away with.

One of my In-laws is a Tax Partner for Deloitte, he heads a huge team of very well people who spend all day, every day, testing the law for exclusions (or loopholes as most would call them).

They're working absolutely flat out now going through all the new Corona stimulus stuff to maximise it's benefit for their clients, they're not advising them to use it to keep people at home, or to avoid redundancies unless that happens to be the most cost-effective thing to do, they're certainly now worried about IF a business can afford to keep people working from home, if it's worth a £1 more to furlough them, they'll do it.

There's no obvious way to stop it, it might seem simple to impose a far simpler tax system and force business to pay their fair share, but it's far easier said then done. The exclusion for Company A that's fair and reasonable will be used by a thousand more to avoid taxation.

I'm looking at other threads on here, about which companies to avoid and which to use after all this comes to an end, and seeing some synergy with this.
If people were better informed about what (some) companies get up to, and also about why it matters, more of us would think about it, rather than thinking "but I can save £2 by using company x, so I'll just go there" without a thought as to why company y might be charging differently.

I know not everybody would suddenly change their ways (and fully appreciate that lots of people are not in a position to do so) but if more people did, that may be the way to really change how big companies think about their responsibilities.

I'm damn sure I could do better on this front...

The first thing Labour should do is adopt the phrase corporate socialism and apply it to the government unrelentingly. Call it what it is.

The word socialism was toxic when it came out of the mouth of Corbyn, thankfully he's history now. If I were Starmer I would send out a memo banning the use of the word socialism unless it's prefaced by the word corporate.

This is your new Strategy Labour, don't thank me for it, just get on with it. Every time a member of government opens their mouth, just say, 'CORPORATE SOCIALISM'. This is the phrase that Caps Lock was invented for.

The problems the Nhs is struggling with are not simply due to chronic underfunding, there is a large percentage of the population suffering with underlying health issues, heart disease,diabetes,respiratory problems, a high percentage of these issues are due to peoples lifestyles, obesity, smoking/vaping,drug and alcohol abuse and lack of exercise. It seems to me that instead of tackling the underlying reasons for peoples health problems they are given drugs to control the symptoms,the drugs industry does very nicely out of this approach but it leaves many thousands of people reliant on drugs to manage conditions that could be better managed with simple lifestyle changes. It will be very depressing if we learn nothing from this and go back to business as usual

The concept of national unity is a complete fallacy in these times.

There are two ways of assessing the Government's current performance.

Either they are incompetent, in which case people are dying because the government is incompetent.

Or they are following a strategy, in which case the government is strategically killing people.

Do you want to be part of this Labour? Supporting the government now will not save lives, either in the short term or the long term.

The title of this thread ' We're all in this together yeah ' was the most serious I could think of.

It was the phrase used to pull the wool over our eyes a decade ago and the same phrase is being used again to the same ends.

If you think now is not the time to rock the boat then I'm sorry, I think you are a fool. Never in my lifetime has it been so necessary to rock the boat, If we don't then we're all going to get thrown overboard anyhow.

And remember folks, Jacob Lynch Mob and his ilk are busy stockpiling all the life belts as we type.

who gave us Italian numbers

If only they had! Our deaths figure is now ahead of the Italian ones for the same timescale. Our total over the same period from first death is now greater than Italy over a shorter period and they never reported over 900 deaths in a day.

Italy, 27th March, 919 deaths.

Italian 3 day average 23rd March - 25th March, 676 deaths/day. On 25th March they reported 7503 total deaths.

UK 3 day average, as of yesterday, 715 deaths/day, total deaths 7079.

Seems fairly similar to me.

Just a reminder, this is a thread about the political and economic ramifications of the virus that is our present government.

The thread for Covid 19 is over there!

I'm don't want to start yet another CV thread and I think there is some mileage in this one, but I'm wondering if all of this daily emphasis in number of deaths will have a post-virus effect on the electorate and the economy. We've shown that we are willing to break the bank in order to reduce death, yet we've been willing to turn a blind eye to the ongoing causes - stroke, heart, cancer, even road deaths. These all add up to a higher death toll than CV and many of them disproportionately affect the poorer and disadvantaged. What a difference we could make if we were willing to put some level of additional effort into reducing these too.

And, pushing it again, how dare Coronavirus threaten the UK. Does it not know we have nuclear weapons? All of our spend on those now looks to have been completely worthless. It turns out that the biggest threat to the UK isn't from a nuclear enemy, it's from an indiscriminate bug.

I don't understand the reasoning of people who say 'this isn't the time for politics'.

If a lack of ICU beds, PPE testing and ventilation equipment isn't deeply rooted in politics.

Or the fact that this government's failure to prepare and muddled messaging/action in the lead up to what we're now witnessing isn't, again, an outright political shi*fest of the highest order.

Then nothing is, the only people who want to deflect the focus away from politics (and onto subjects like pro footballers) are politicians like Hancock who know that they've badly messed up.

If they can get away blame free from all of this, then I fear what they'll try and get away with next. They need holding to account.

offcumden
Subscriber

I don’t understand the reasoning of people who say ‘this isn’t the time for politics’.

It's never the time. It's not the time when it's happening, it's too soon immediately after it happens, and once it's not too soon, it's time to move onto the next thing.

Politics hasn't stopped, it never does. It's politics that drove this government's poor initial response, it's politics that attacks the NHS, it's politics that says "blame people for breaking the lockdown" instead of "blame us for not starting the lockdown on time", and it's politics that gives us a health minister that ignores his own instructions...

Slightly OT but what would be helpful re NHS funding would be to talk about funding as a % of GDP rather than £. Labour should promise 12% (or whatever) of GDP fixed every year. Rather than an extra £12 billion per year extra to the already promised £60 bil over 3 years blah which can be misleading/ forgotten easily.

Number of Drs Nurses Beds also good.

inkster - you're spraying loads of words about but haven't proposed anything, other than labour start shouting 'corporate socialism'.
Let's have some proposals from you.

Offcumden + Northwind,

That's why the thread has the title I gave it, the phrase 'Were all in this together' is actually a demand that we disengage with politics. It's a form of blackmail and a form of censorship. It suggests that if we chose to speak the truth at a time when truth is most needed we are somehow callous or heartless.

There's been a few comments on other threads where posters have said if Labour chooses to play politics at a time like this then they'll never vote Labour again. Like the two of you, I find this alarming though not altogether surprising. I dunno, maybe they're younger and more idealistic, unlike me! Everything about the position we now find ourselves in is political, absolutely everything.

In order to learn from history we only have to ask one simple question;- 'Why would it be different this time?' From a political and economic standpoint we have made exactly the same mistakes that led up to the 2008 crisis and are about to make exactly the same mistakes that we made after the 2008 crisis. (as referenced in my opening statement)

WW2 Was so traumatizing for the nation that it birthed the NHS & the welfare state (apparently, it was long before I was born)

Will this be the same?

No

It'll only get worse

Scotroutes,

The Chinese word for crisis is formed of two characters that translate as 'danger and 'opportunity'

Those of us with a more liberal mindset and social disposition would do well to focus on the latter of those two characters, because we know damn sure those in power at the moment are putting more effort into seeking opportunities for themselves than addressing the danger. Jacob Lynch Mobb is a disaster capitalist ffs. It is in his interest to sow chaos, it's his day job. He'll be wetting himself at the prospect of all the money he's going to be making out of this.

You've set out a menu of opportunities in your comment, a wish list of things we could address in the light of our new reality. I'm with you though we know there's a real danger that these things will be ignored once we get back to normal, or whatever the new normal will be.

It's a big ask, our backs are against the wall, we have the most useless government in living memory yet they have a huge majority to work with. Im going to bore people to death with this idea bit I think we need to flip the script as it were and accuse the government of being anti capitalist by labeling them Corporate Socialists, as the way in which they bail out and bend to the will of big business is not what capitalism is about.

I no longer refer to the Tories as the Conservative party, I refer to them as the Corporate Socialist Party, the CSP for short. Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens et al could do a lot worse than to refer to them as such, repeatedly and consistently. After all, The Corporate Socialist Party has got by endlessly repeating vacuous mantras over the last few years, the only difference is that the CSP moniker isn't vacuous, it's accurate.

Kimbers,

Good point, I think that's where we are headed if we're not mindful. The Corporate Socialist Party will fight tooth and nail to make sure things get worse for the most of us. We've got to use our imagination and all our cunning to fight back.

The NHS and the Welfare state were the triumphs of the post war Labour Party. Their failure was the implementing a command economy, falsely believing that it was a command economy that secured victory for the Soviets. (When it had more to do with the ruthlessness of Stalin and the indefatigabillity of the Soviet peoples)

It's a widely held belief now that Germany lost the war because it operated a grossly inefficient command economy, whilst the free market economy operated by Britain gave us the flexibility to adapt quickly and massively out produce the Germans in terms of material.

The irony in all this is that we imposed a free market economy on post war Germany and we know how that turned out. That's why I don't think socialism is the answer and Jeremy Corbyn kindly proved that point on my behalf. So as I suggested above, accuse the government of being Corporate Socialists and reframe capitalism as a form of meritocratic opportunity. Globalism isn't free market capitalism, Globalism and Corporatism are anti competitive, they are about monopolies and oligarchy.

Labour never instituted a command economy.

For me a couple of changes would need to be:

Ideology - invest in us

Tax - reform is long overdue and we just cant sustain the amount of money that's been drawn out of the uk. There is the argument you'll spook the talent - I'm going to suggest you spook the ideology. If we scare of amazon and get a load of high street shops and small businesses; is that a bad thing?

NHS - this is probably the best chance we are going to get of pulling the plug on PFI and taking it back in house. It's not like we getting part of the PFI money back again in tax. Care homes, there's really no getting away from these are just OAP farms.

Housing - more social housing. You could sell this as a business stimulus package. Nothing fancy, it may be terraced, it would have gardens and green spaces.

Other than brining rail back in I'm not sure about the rest of privatised utilities. No system is perfect but maybe it is time to call an end of what seems to be a 40year national experiment in under investment. I don't think we'll see change unless the situation gets a lot worse. The political gyroscope is still levelling up on jolly war and as before.

I hate conservative logic with a passion

I won't go into exactly why my reasons are felt so strongly but they are discriminatory along with their bigot avid supporters

They're part of the reason I am living hand to mouth and being subsidised by my mother

I have first hand experience of the typical tory bigot attitude in a cliche village with the so called upper middle and lower upper

I even heard that they wanted me out of the village because I suffer MH problems

They used to discuss me at local Parish meetings in the village hall

Yet all the free voluntary work I offered up and completed would never be enough

I would literally get banished here if I were to even describe these moronic individuals

Thank the good lord we did manage to move, not for the lack of trying to SW as now in town, feel a much larger population accept me far more

I mean jeebus, it's not like I am scum ffs

Define "scum".

Other than brining rail back in I’m not sure about the rest of privatised utilities

I'd suggest the odd-ball, semi-privatised school system you folk in England are hiding under the 'academy' and 'community' banner. That includes ending all PFI contracts on schools.

I think we also need a massive overhaul of planning - to focus on local amenities, public transport and greenspace.

Define “scum”.

Fun game! I’ll start us off…

1) People deliberately coughing and spitting at others.

Frankconway,

I'll spray a few figures around for you to go with the words.

On the 20th March, Easy jet paid out 174 million pounds in dividends to it's shareholders. 60 million of that going to Stelious, the co founder.

This week the government gave Easy jet a 600 million pound loan from the Covid 19 fund.

Do you understand what I mean by corporate socialism now?

This is what Starmer should have addressed when being interviewed by Peston.

Question for every one-

If you were a bank manager, would you lend (give) a company that was in a hole that deep £600 million when two weeks earlier they spunked 174 million on bubbly for the shareholders party?

I'll say it again Corporate effing Socialism.

But we're all in this together eh Frank?

Laugh all you like, think of me as that crazy guy who keeps on banging on about corporate socialism but I'll wager that we will all be using this term in a matter of weeks, if not days.

You heard it here first kids.

I'm not laughing, just saying.

I’d suggest the odd-ball, semi-privatised school system you folk in England are hiding under the ‘academy’ and ‘community’ banner. That includes ending all PFI contracts on schools.

I'd go for that.

I think we also need a massive overhaul of planning – to focus on local amenities, public transport and greenspace.

Some form of long term strategic plan for the UK would be a start.

If you're having corporate socialism I'm definitely going for mercantile feudalism as a thing.

Exsee

What are you saying exactly exsee?

Can't find any of your posts on this thread, or is it just that you're trying to be clever. In which case you're actually saying nothing, so kindly jog on unless you have something valuable to contribute.

You seemed to be implying people were laughing at you?? Was a post deleted or something?
I'm not laughing at you at all so no need for the paranoid thoughts. Things are weird enough as it is.

Are you okay at the minute as your posts are a bit ranty?

Tj again,

Are you sure about that? Maybe command economy is a bit strong, but there was a massive move by the Labour government towards state intervention and planning post 1946. Whilst it gave us some good things, (NHS, welfare state etc), it also hindered growth in the economy and met huge resistance from the public which resulted in the tories returning to power in the next parliament.

The post war government was seen as anti voluntarism, (the agency of individuals and their freedom to set their own goals within the bounds of certain societal and cultural restraints, as opposed to actions that are coerced or premeditated).

It's a balancing act, too much voluntarism is what we have now with our current government, not enough and you stymie the economy, creativity and entrepreneurship of the population. So basically I'm saying that the post war Labour government looked to control to much in people's lives and limited the ability of business to make decisions for itself.

Surely you can't deny that the left was enthralled by Stalin right up to the 60's, The biggest debate amongst the left throughout the 50's was those who supported the Soviet expansion into Eastern Europe (They were called the tankies) and those who opposed Soviet expansion.

Happy to be corrected, just come with something a little more than 'no it isn't' if you don't mind.

Exsee

Am I ok? Are any of us at the moment?

I'm being a bit provocative that's all. I never respond to others comments sarcastically unless they start it, in which case I'm happy to join in. Saw your post as a bit sarcastic and I'd not had any previous encounters with you so you can't say you didn't ask for it!

I'm pushing the idea that what we have now isn't capitalism, it's corporate socialism and getting a bit of flack for it which I entirely expected. So if you've got 'owt constructive to say I'm all ears! After all, you looked at the thread and you jogged back!

A quick experiment-
If I say conspiracy, how do you feel?
Just tell me about the first conspiracy that comes into your head

Exsee,

Now you're just trolling.

Serious question chief. I'm not trolling.

Inkster. If you are going to bandy about political terms then perhaps gain a basic understanding of what they mean. "corporate socialism" is a nonsense phrase and the UK never had anything approaching a command economy.

Growth post war was high and unemployment was low - so your basic premise is just wrong

I can suggest some good books to read if you like

Exsee,

Ok, please rephrase the question, don't really get what you're asking. I took it that you were implying I was a conspiracy theorist. If you weren't then I'm happy to engage.

I don't generally think about conspiracies, I think things are more random than that. I do think the capitalist model has been taken over by what I call corporate socialism but I'm not flagging it up as a conspiracy theory, more that it is just the state of affairs right now.

Tj again.

I'm more than happy for you to see 'corporate socialism' as a nonsense phrase. I'm aware that I'm taking a risk by using it and expect to be pilloried for it. I'm just taking a punt that that phrase will come into common usage fairly soon. If I'm wrong I'm wrong and quite prepared to have egg on my face.

I backtracked a little on the command economy thing, (but not entirely) so I gave you that. What do you think about my follow up comments about voluntarism and many on the left being enthralled by Stalin etc? Surely you cant deny that I'm correct there? Im suggesting that the left sought to 'design' society and over plan the economy rather than let things happen more organically, where people have more agency in 'designing' their own futures.

You know I won't be reading any books you suggest but throw me a couple of sardines (conscice links) and I might bite.

Oldagedpredator,

I quite like mercantile feudalism but I think corporate socialism has more of a ring to it. 😁