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The title of this thread ' We're all in this together yeah ' was the most serious I could think of.
It was the phrase used to pull the wool over our eyes a decade ago and the same phrase is being used again to the same ends.
If you think now is not the time to rock the boat then I'm sorry, I think you are a fool. Never in my lifetime has it been so necessary to rock the boat, If we don't then we're all going to get thrown overboard anyhow.
And remember folks, Jacob Lynch Mob and his ilk are busy stockpiling all the life belts as we type.
who gave us Italian numbers
If only they had! Our deaths figure is now ahead of the Italian ones for the same timescale. Our total over the same period from first death is now greater than Italy over a shorter period and they never reported over 900 deaths in a day.
Italy, 27th March, 919 deaths.
Italian 3 day average 23rd March - 25th March, 676 deaths/day. On 25th March they reported 7503 total deaths.
UK 3 day average, as of yesterday, 715 deaths/day, total deaths 7079.
Seems fairly similar to me.
Just a reminder, this is a thread about the political and economic ramifications of the virus that is our present government.
The thread for Covid 19 is over there!
I'm don't want to start yet another CV thread and I think there is some mileage in this one, but I'm wondering if all of this daily emphasis in number of deaths will have a post-virus effect on the electorate and the economy. We've shown that we are willing to break the bank in order to reduce death, yet we've been willing to turn a blind eye to the ongoing causes - stroke, heart, cancer, even road deaths. These all add up to a higher death toll than CV and many of them disproportionately affect the poorer and disadvantaged. What a difference we could make if we were willing to put some level of additional effort into reducing these too.
And, pushing it again, how dare Coronavirus threaten the UK. Does it not know we have nuclear weapons? All of our spend on those now looks to have been completely worthless. It turns out that the biggest threat to the UK isn't from a nuclear enemy, it's from an indiscriminate bug.
I don't understand the reasoning of people who say 'this isn't the time for politics'.
If a lack of ICU beds, PPE testing and ventilation equipment isn't deeply rooted in politics.
Or the fact that this government's failure to prepare and muddled messaging/action in the lead up to what we're now witnessing isn't, again, an outright political shi*fest of the highest order.
Then nothing is, the only people who want to deflect the focus away from politics (and onto subjects like pro footballers) are politicians like Hancock who know that they've badly messed up.
If they can get away blame free from all of this, then I fear what they'll try and get away with next. They need holding to account.
offcumden
SubscriberI don’t understand the reasoning of people who say ‘this isn’t the time for politics’.
It's never the time. It's not the time when it's happening, it's too soon immediately after it happens, and once it's not too soon, it's time to move onto the next thing.
Politics hasn't stopped, it never does. It's politics that drove this government's poor initial response, it's politics that attacks the NHS, it's politics that says "blame people for breaking the lockdown" instead of "blame us for not starting the lockdown on time", and it's politics that gives us a health minister that ignores his own instructions...
Slightly OT but what would be helpful re NHS funding would be to talk about funding as a % of GDP rather than £. Labour should promise 12% (or whatever) of GDP fixed every year. Rather than an extra £12 billion per year extra to the already promised £60 bil over 3 years blah which can be misleading/ forgotten easily.
Number of Drs Nurses Beds also good.
inkster - you're spraying loads of words about but haven't proposed anything, other than labour start shouting 'corporate socialism'.
Let's have some proposals from you.
Offcumden + Northwind,
That's why the thread has the title I gave it, the phrase 'Were all in this together' is actually a demand that we disengage with politics. It's a form of blackmail and a form of censorship. It suggests that if we chose to speak the truth at a time when truth is most needed we are somehow callous or heartless.
There's been a few comments on other threads where posters have said if Labour chooses to play politics at a time like this then they'll never vote Labour again. Like the two of you, I find this alarming though not altogether surprising. I dunno, maybe they're younger and more idealistic, unlike me! Everything about the position we now find ourselves in is political, absolutely everything.
In order to learn from history we only have to ask one simple question;- 'Why would it be different this time?' From a political and economic standpoint we have made exactly the same mistakes that led up to the 2008 crisis and are about to make exactly the same mistakes that we made after the 2008 crisis. (as referenced in my opening statement)
WW2 Was so traumatizing for the nation that it birthed the NHS & the welfare state (apparently, it was long before I was born)
Will this be the same?
No
It'll only get worse
Scotroutes,
The Chinese word for crisis is formed of two characters that translate as 'danger and 'opportunity'
Those of us with a more liberal mindset and social disposition would do well to focus on the latter of those two characters, because we know damn sure those in power at the moment are putting more effort into seeking opportunities for themselves than addressing the danger. Jacob Lynch Mobb is a disaster capitalist ffs. It is in his interest to sow chaos, it's his day job. He'll be wetting himself at the prospect of all the money he's going to be making out of this.
You've set out a menu of opportunities in your comment, a wish list of things we could address in the light of our new reality. I'm with you though we know there's a real danger that these things will be ignored once we get back to normal, or whatever the new normal will be.
It's a big ask, our backs are against the wall, we have the most useless government in living memory yet they have a huge majority to work with. Im going to bore people to death with this idea bit I think we need to flip the script as it were and accuse the government of being anti capitalist by labeling them Corporate Socialists, as the way in which they bail out and bend to the will of big business is not what capitalism is about.
I no longer refer to the Tories as the Conservative party, I refer to them as the Corporate Socialist Party, the CSP for short. Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens et al could do a lot worse than to refer to them as such, repeatedly and consistently. After all, The Corporate Socialist Party has got by endlessly repeating vacuous mantras over the last few years, the only difference is that the CSP moniker isn't vacuous, it's accurate.
Kimbers,
Good point, I think that's where we are headed if we're not mindful. The Corporate Socialist Party will fight tooth and nail to make sure things get worse for the most of us. We've got to use our imagination and all our cunning to fight back.
The NHS and the Welfare state were the triumphs of the post war Labour Party. Their failure was the implementing a command economy, falsely believing that it was a command economy that secured victory for the Soviets. (When it had more to do with the ruthlessness of Stalin and the indefatigabillity of the Soviet peoples)
It's a widely held belief now that Germany lost the war because it operated a grossly inefficient command economy, whilst the free market economy operated by Britain gave us the flexibility to adapt quickly and massively out produce the Germans in terms of material.
The irony in all this is that we imposed a free market economy on post war Germany and we know how that turned out. That's why I don't think socialism is the answer and Jeremy Corbyn kindly proved that point on my behalf. So as I suggested above, accuse the government of being Corporate Socialists and reframe capitalism as a form of meritocratic opportunity. Globalism isn't free market capitalism, Globalism and Corporatism are anti competitive, they are about monopolies and oligarchy.
Labour never instituted a command economy.
For me a couple of changes would need to be:
Ideology - invest in us
Tax - reform is long overdue and we just cant sustain the amount of money that's been drawn out of the uk. There is the argument you'll spook the talent - I'm going to suggest you spook the ideology. If we scare of amazon and get a load of high street shops and small businesses; is that a bad thing?
NHS - this is probably the best chance we are going to get of pulling the plug on PFI and taking it back in house. It's not like we getting part of the PFI money back again in tax. Care homes, there's really no getting away from these are just OAP farms.
Housing - more social housing. You could sell this as a business stimulus package. Nothing fancy, it may be terraced, it would have gardens and green spaces.
Other than brining rail back in I'm not sure about the rest of privatised utilities. No system is perfect but maybe it is time to call an end of what seems to be a 40year national experiment in under investment. I don't think we'll see change unless the situation gets a lot worse. The political gyroscope is still levelling up on jolly war and as before.
I hate conservative logic with a passion
I won't go into exactly why my reasons are felt so strongly but they are discriminatory along with their bigot avid supporters
They're part of the reason I am living hand to mouth and being subsidised by my mother
I have first hand experience of the typical tory bigot attitude in a cliche village with the so called upper middle and lower upper
I even heard that they wanted me out of the village because I suffer MH problems
They used to discuss me at local Parish meetings in the village hall
Yet all the free voluntary work I offered up and completed would never be enough
I would literally get banished here if I were to even describe these moronic individuals
Thank the good lord we did manage to move, not for the lack of trying to SW as now in town, feel a much larger population accept me far more
I mean jeebus, it's not like I am scum ffs
Define "scum".
Other than brining rail back in I’m not sure about the rest of privatised utilities
I'd suggest the odd-ball, semi-privatised school system you folk in England are hiding under the 'academy' and 'community' banner. That includes ending all PFI contracts on schools.
I think we also need a massive overhaul of planning - to focus on local amenities, public transport and greenspace.
Define “scum”.
Fun game! I’ll start us off…
1) People deliberately coughing and spitting at others.
Frankconway,
I'll spray a few figures around for you to go with the words.
On the 20th March, Easy jet paid out 174 million pounds in dividends to it's shareholders. 60 million of that going to Stelious, the co founder.
This week the government gave Easy jet a 600 million pound loan from the Covid 19 fund.
Do you understand what I mean by corporate socialism now?
This is what Starmer should have addressed when being interviewed by Peston.
Question for every one-
If you were a bank manager, would you lend (give) a company that was in a hole that deep £600 million when two weeks earlier they spunked 174 million on bubbly for the shareholders party?
I'll say it again Corporate effing Socialism.
But we're all in this together eh Frank?
Laugh all you like, think of me as that crazy guy who keeps on banging on about corporate socialism but I'll wager that we will all be using this term in a matter of weeks, if not days.
You heard it here first kids.
I'm not laughing, just saying.
I’d suggest the odd-ball, semi-privatised school system you folk in England are hiding under the ‘academy’ and ‘community’ banner. That includes ending all PFI contracts on schools.
I'd go for that.
I think we also need a massive overhaul of planning – to focus on local amenities, public transport and greenspace.
Some form of long term strategic plan for the UK would be a start.
If you're having corporate socialism I'm definitely going for mercantile feudalism as a thing.
Exsee
What are you saying exactly exsee?
Can't find any of your posts on this thread, or is it just that you're trying to be clever. In which case you're actually saying nothing, so kindly jog on unless you have something valuable to contribute.
You seemed to be implying people were laughing at you?? Was a post deleted or something?
I'm not laughing at you at all so no need for the paranoid thoughts. Things are weird enough as it is.
Are you okay at the minute as your posts are a bit ranty?
Tj again,
Are you sure about that? Maybe command economy is a bit strong, but there was a massive move by the Labour government towards state intervention and planning post 1946. Whilst it gave us some good things, (NHS, welfare state etc), it also hindered growth in the economy and met huge resistance from the public which resulted in the tories returning to power in the next parliament.
The post war government was seen as anti voluntarism, (the agency of individuals and their freedom to set their own goals within the bounds of certain societal and cultural restraints, as opposed to actions that are coerced or premeditated).
It's a balancing act, too much voluntarism is what we have now with our current government, not enough and you stymie the economy, creativity and entrepreneurship of the population. So basically I'm saying that the post war Labour government looked to control to much in people's lives and limited the ability of business to make decisions for itself.
Surely you can't deny that the left was enthralled by Stalin right up to the 60's, The biggest debate amongst the left throughout the 50's was those who supported the Soviet expansion into Eastern Europe (They were called the tankies) and those who opposed Soviet expansion.
Happy to be corrected, just come with something a little more than 'no it isn't' if you don't mind.
Exsee
Am I ok? Are any of us at the moment?
I'm being a bit provocative that's all. I never respond to others comments sarcastically unless they start it, in which case I'm happy to join in. Saw your post as a bit sarcastic and I'd not had any previous encounters with you so you can't say you didn't ask for it!
I'm pushing the idea that what we have now isn't capitalism, it's corporate socialism and getting a bit of flack for it which I entirely expected. So if you've got 'owt constructive to say I'm all ears! After all, you looked at the thread and you jogged back!
A quick experiment-
If I say conspiracy, how do you feel?
Just tell me about the first conspiracy that comes into your head
Exsee,
Now you're just trolling.
Serious question chief. I'm not trolling.
Inkster. If you are going to bandy about political terms then perhaps gain a basic understanding of what they mean. "corporate socialism" is a nonsense phrase and the UK never had anything approaching a command economy.
Growth post war was high and unemployment was low - so your basic premise is just wrong
I can suggest some good books to read if you like
Exsee,
Ok, please rephrase the question, don't really get what you're asking. I took it that you were implying I was a conspiracy theorist. If you weren't then I'm happy to engage.
I don't generally think about conspiracies, I think things are more random than that. I do think the capitalist model has been taken over by what I call corporate socialism but I'm not flagging it up as a conspiracy theory, more that it is just the state of affairs right now.
Tj again.
I'm more than happy for you to see 'corporate socialism' as a nonsense phrase. I'm aware that I'm taking a risk by using it and expect to be pilloried for it. I'm just taking a punt that that phrase will come into common usage fairly soon. If I'm wrong I'm wrong and quite prepared to have egg on my face.
I backtracked a little on the command economy thing, (but not entirely) so I gave you that. What do you think about my follow up comments about voluntarism and many on the left being enthralled by Stalin etc? Surely you cant deny that I'm correct there? Im suggesting that the left sought to 'design' society and over plan the economy rather than let things happen more organically, where people have more agency in 'designing' their own futures.
You know I won't be reading any books you suggest but throw me a couple of sardines (conscice links) and I might bite.
Oldagedpredator,
I quite like mercantile feudalism but I think corporate socialism has more of a ring to it. 😁
Inkster. Its really hard to know where to start.
"the left" is not a single coherent group. A tiny fraction of it supported Soviet russia. IIRC this actually cased a split in the hard left after the invasion of Hungary. Those that supported Stalin where as far away from the reins of power as they are today - they were a tiny sect on the far left edges. Not even as popular as the Socialist workers party are today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Great_Britain
So yes - I totally disagree that "many on the left were enthralled by Stalin" A section of the hard left perhaps, Never a part of mainstream labour thinking, nowhere near any power. the communist parties in their various forms had more influence between the wars see "Red Clydesiders" for how the establishment of the day used miltary force to put them down
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Clydeside
some of these strands of left wing thinking were incorporated into the wider labour movement along with the trade unions. Those on the hard left that Supported Stalin were never a part of "the Labour party"
A commmand economy is one where the government decided what should be made and the labour party post war always ran a mixed economy of regulated markets some aspects of a planned economy ( not the same thing as a command economy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_economy as well as some nationalised industries where the benfit to the population and strategic importance of these industries made it desirable - ie where there were natural monopolies such as rail, power or, water.
The post war labour governments were always social Democratic in action.
yes they did try to plan things - simply because it worked. Unemployment was low, housing shortages eliminated, growth was good and the aim was to improve the lot of the people of this country. this was achieved despite paying a huge debt to america left over from the war.
Council housing - led to the working people of this country having decent living accommodation - and was cheaper to build than any other sway of building housing and gave the workers decent secure affordable housing for the first time in the history of this country.
In the immedate post war economy actually ore planning and more state control might have meant that we invested in our industries - we didn't which allowed Germany and Japan who had to as their manufaturing had been destroyed thus they overtook us in terms of manufacturing. Instead the owners of manufacturing industry in the UK took profits instead of inventing leading to the decline of manufacturing in the 60s and 70s. Lady Docker and the gold plated rolls royce. The loss of an empire we could drain for profit also hastened the decline but lack of investment was the key
I think some of your confusion comes from the 70s -Not the post war period. Early 70s the oil price rises destroyed the economy and the labour governments nationalised failing industries and then failed to invest and innovate in those industries. They actually intervened too late Along with weak management this led to the whole concept of nationalised industries becoming discredited and led to Thatchers "revolution" which of course was an economic disaster paid for by the north sea oil money. Norway used their oil money to pay people to build infrastructure and to create wealth for all. The tories used it to pay people not to work. A total waste
Unfettered capitalism leads to growth in inequality and concentration of wealth and power in the hands of the richest. this is why despite being one of the richest counties in the world we have people dying of starvation and begging on the streets. something that is a much less of non existent thing in most of Europe who continued with the social democratic / technocratic style of governments we had post war, It is an utter disgrace that e have a huge number of impoverished people in a country so rich. This is what happens when you "let things happen more organically, where people have more agency in ‘designing’ their own futures." Its fine for the rich and the middle classes do OK - at the expense of the working class who become impoverished, powerless and stuck
thats a very basic few pointers on the post war economy
The NHS needs massive investment and not PFI funded bollocks.
Remind me, who was it who was particularly keen on PPFI?
tj again,
Great reply and I mean that. It's the kind of dialogue I was hoping for this thread, even though I don't agree with everything you said. Certainly I'm with you regarding the 50"s, my point was specifically about the period 1946-1950.
Difference of opinion is not confusion however, I never mentioned the 70"s so I can't understand how you've conflated that with what I was saying about the immediate post war period. I'm old enough to remember the 70's! I'll refrain from calling you confused though.
Direct question for you: Focusing explicitly on the immediate post war period, why, if things are as you say, did labour lose the 1951 election?
I'm definitely not a socialist, even though my voting record is Labour 6 times, Lib Dems 2 times. Where you say unfettered capitalism, I say Corporate Socialism. [I call the tories the Corporate Socialist Party]
For the most part I've been self employed and always worked in the creative industries. Either as a photographer / film maker or an independent nightclub promoter / dj. Whilst I support workers rights and union representation, the unions have done than nothing for me. I don't expect them to. As a creative I believe in competition and complete creative freedom.
In the late 80's, I wanted to try my hand at film and TV work. You couldn't get a job unless you were a member of equity, only you couldn't become a member unless you already worked in that field. It was a catch 22 situation. the best way to get a job or become a union member was to be either related to someone in the industry and have 'contacts'. bugger that I thought.
Now to the music industry. The musicians union was actively opposing electronic music. 'Keep music Live' was their mantra, emblazoned on stickers that you'd see on every bloody guitar case and amplifier. TOTP was a great example of their corruption, If a record had any string arrangements on it, the union used to force bands to employ a bunch of old farts with union membership to play both on the pre recorded session and the TV performance. Jobs for the boys, dictating how and with whom' artists were to perform.
When I went into club promotion in the 90's. I was thankful that Thatcher the witch had liberalised the industry, previously the unions had a grip on the events industry, again having a say in what you could do and who you had to employ. As a creative I don't want anybody getting up in my shit. As a creative I embrace chaos, randomness, volatility and disorder. For me these things are the mothers of invention. Maybe you can see how those experiences shaped my mindset. I have no interest in how things should be, only what they can be.
I love art, especially it's extremes and inequalities. I can stand the socialised, do good, virtue singling, everyones a winner arts council type bollocks. I prefer the rogues and the villains. I have no ideology and no morality when it comes to art [though I am quite ethical.]
Now to Corporate Socialism. A nonsense phrase as you and quite a few others here have suggested. I had a think about it and gave the term a google [wanted to be correct with my terminology as I'd been pulled up on it]. The first link I came up with was this, from a crackpot conspiracy theory website called the Financial Times or something?
https://www.ft.com/content/69b197d6-08a2-4e0e-bf38-c976353e7e20
I'll check the links you posted, [much appreciated] have a gander at this one. You won't be disappointed. I was, I thought I'd invented a new phrase but it seems it's been around for quite some time!
So you prefer your lowly worker to be exploited?
Th again,
The reason I started this thread was to address the fallacy embodied in the phrase 'We're all in this together'
It's a phrase designed to temporarily pull the wool over people's eyes, blackmailing us whilst governments dosh out billions and billions of pounds to multi millionaires and billionaires.
You seem to be fine with this, prepared to give the actions of corrupted governments a pass. You'd rather accuse me of seeking to exploit the 'lowly workers' as you put it. Your doing exactly what the government wants us to do, turn on each other while they get on with stripping the cupboard bare.
The crime of the century is happening right before our eyes and we're only 2 decades in. My conscience is clear, I've given work to many people, paid them fairly and helped to support many people in their careers. I did it all off my own back and had to take many personal risks in doing so, having to make difficult decisions that probably cost me financially when instead I chose to do the right thing. Stelios has just ripped the country for 174 million and yet I'm the problem.
I'd call you a Corbynista but he was probably too right wing for you, maybe your a fan of millionaire Len McClusky. I'm not, he's as bad as Stelios, epitomise what you despise and all that.
I used what's happening with Easy Jet as an example of what's happening on a grand scale right now and for the most part the only response I've had is people sticking up for him, how he's protecting jobs when in fact we're protecting him. Let him and other big businesses and corporations that had had their fingers in the cookie jar go bust. They will be replaced by new, better companies.
The problem were facing is just like that we had with the banks, where they became too big to fail so we had to bail them out. They used their profits to buy up other banks so as to reduce competition, creating monopolies that held the world to ransom. The same thing is happening now only on a much larger scale because it involves more than just the banks.
I feel that attitudes like yours will help to keep right wing governments in power indefinitely. You're more interested in being right than getting it right. We now have a new Labour leadership and the hard left are more interested in trying to wrest power from the red tories (as they put it) than the real Tories, (Corporate Socialist Party)
Socialists to the left, Corporate Socialists to the right, stuck in the middle with you. Because for all our differences, we're both stuck in the middle of this dreadfull situation. The effects of the corporate bail outs will kill more people and cause more misery than the virus itself and we're letting them get away with it by conforming to the idea that we're all in this together whilst banging pots and pans in the street.