[Closed] Well done Bull

Someone should train the bull to attack properly so I can see guts pouring out from the bullfighter ...

Doctors said the bull's horn sank 25cm (10in) into Paquirri's groin

Oooooouuuuuuucccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 😯

Serves him bloody glad - miserable 'sport' for miserable little men 👿

Ah great, another thread where people seem to take pleasure in seeing another human serious hurt. You're no better than the bull fighter in taking joy from the situation.

whatnobeer - Member

Ah great, another thread where people seem to take pleasure in seeing another human serious hurt. You're no better than the bull fighter in taking joy from the situation.

Ya, coz it's an uneven fight with the bull being stabbed near it's spine first then asked to fight to the death ... why don't they stab the bullfighter as well so to level the "playing" ground? Eh?

If someone's sole purpose in life is to dish out suffering and death to an innocent creature, then damn right I'll take pleasure in seeing them badly hurt!
Another case of it not really being a level playing field again.

If someone's sole purpose in life is to dish out suffering and death to an innocent creature, then damn right I'll take pleasure in seeing them badly hurt!
Another case of it not really being a level playing field again.

+ 1000

Why? You're problem is that the human is able to kill the bull, but when it happens the other way around it's fine and you enjoy it? Double standards by the sound of it.

It's excellent for the 'sport'. The risk of death and dismemberment is an integral part of bullfighting. Without it, you just work in a particularly flamboyant and cruel abbattoir.

My problem is that the bull is put in an arena by heartless humans to die for their amusement.
It doesn't just wander in there looking for a fight.

Why? You're problem is that the human is able to kill the bull, but when it happens the other way around it's fine and you enjoy it? Double standards by the sound of it.

If a load of Bulls paid money to see a brightly dressed bull torturing and ultimately killing men, I would agree with your sentiment.
The man got hurt by a bull fighting for it's life. Well done bull.

[i]Ah great, another thread where people seem to take pleasure in seeing another human serious hurt. [/i]

Yep, brilliant. 25cm into the groin. Good work bull. Although probably it's final act of defiance before it was inhumanely destroyed eh?

If someone's sole purpose in life is to dish out suffering and death to an innocent creature, then damn right I'll take pleasure in seeing them badly hurt!

+ another.

How much sympathy would I get after being gored if I jumped over the fence into a field with a big angry bull and then proceeded to antagonise it while my mates watched?
Not a lot .

Ah great, another thread where people seem to take pleasure in seeing another human serious hurt. You're no better than the bull fighter in taking joy from the situation.

&

Why? You're problem is that the human is able to kill the bull, but when it happens the other way around it's fine and you enjoy it? Double standards by the sound of it.

Did you miss the part where the Bull didn't actually get the choice to be in the ring in the first place...?

fool...

Currently in Huesca for the festivals (definitely not for the bullfighting). Have to say I find bullfighting pretty abhorrent & there was a significant anti protest outside the bullring, which seems to have some momentum throughout Spain.
The torero has a heavily pregnant wife, so hope the guy pulls through ok.
I'm sure he & his family et al are well aware of the risks.
The bull obviously doesn't have a choice, however these bulls are bred specifically for bullfighting, so wouldn't even have any kind of life before their brutal death, were it not for bullfighting. Not sure that makes it any better? Is any kind of existence better than no kind of existence at all? Probably IMO...

The bull obviously doesn't have a choice, however these bulls are bred specifically for bullfighting, so wouldn't even have any kind of life before their brutal death, were it not for bullfighting. Not sure that makes it any better? Is any kind of existence better than no kind of existence at all? Probably IMO...

If we bred humans specifically to be slaves would that be alright? They wouldn't have existed otherwise...

Does the bull get eaten?

The bull gets eaten.
Some would say many humans are already bred to be slaves.

Have agonized over writing this, and would appreciate not being flamed for it 'just because'.

I went to Las Ventas more than 20 years ago and saw the bullfight. I was in Madrid visiting friends who convinced me to go. I stood outside with ticket in hand for ages before actually going in, but it was going to happen anyway, and ultimately I rationalised that making a judgement based on knowing rather than perception was a decision worth taking.

Unfortunately your perceptions are correct. It was a brutal thing to see. On both sides. Clearly no civilised society should allow this to happen for any reason, let alone in the name of entertainment. On the other hand, the skill and bravery of the matadors and the banderillos is breathtaking. These bulls are bred and trained for fighting and the toreador confronts death or serious injury head on every day. I don't condone the event, but I absolute salute their courage, and while i see the point of view that if they didn't do it they wouldn't get gored, I take no satisfaction in fathers, husbands, wives, sons and daughters being seriously injured or killed as a result. Yes, it's part of the job but they are still people.

If they could keep the spectacle but remove the violence it would be something that i'd urge anyone to go and see. The venue is stunning, the event on a late sunday afternoon is culturally so significant, everyone out in their fineries to see and be seen, the costumes and choreography is amazing, the sheer size and speed and power of the bulls in contrast to a skinny man in ballet pumps...... so much about it was brilliant yet ultimately it is so utterly, utterly wrong.

Like i started - please don't flame me. i made a decision 20+ years ago, and as a result i KNOW why it has no place in a civilised world, and i would never go again nor recommend anyone else go. Do i regret going? Very tough to answer; yes of course i regret seeing the death of 6 animals in the name of sport, but in an odd way I'm glad to have seen it once. And i can't take it back now anyway, so there it is.

theotherjonv, a post based on real world experience that is well thought out and holds a reasoned opinion on a controversial event? It's a very good post but I can't see it catching on here...

Well said theotherjohnv.
I went once only to a bullfight, here in Huesca & echo your views. I actually felt that a large number of the audience, those that were not " aficionados" we're pretty disrespectful of what was going on in front of them, both from the bulls & the toreros perspective, as they seemed more interested in drinking & throwing food around.
Las Ventas in Madrid is stunning, only been there to see Primal Scream & Red Hot Chilli Peppers though.

So the bull gets eaten.
That adds a different angle to it.
As a beef eater should I now cheer if an abattoir worker gets gored?
I may have changed my opinion.

The death of an animal (human, cow etc...) is not a big deal. Many die every second in this world.

My issue with this, and with the death of Cecil the Lion, is that one animal dies for the pleasure of another animal.

This is wrong and we, as a society, should not allow animals that enjoy killing for pleasure to kill for pleasure and claim it as sport.

one animal dies for the pleasure of another animal.

You mean like the yummy pig that died for my breakfasting pleasure? (Locally sourced happy pigs by the way! )

My issue with this, and with the death of Cecil the Lion, is that one animal dies for the pleasure of another animal

Which gives rise to the vegan argument that we eat animals for pleasure, rather than necessity

Would bullfighting be such big entertainment if it wasn't dangerous?
Surely this just shows that the danger is real, so those who enjoy it will enjoy it all the more.
I'm sure the gored matador will be back to stick plenty of swords into more bulls. And probably will be a bigger star on his return.

We do not eat for pleasure - eating is a necessity.

I accept that some people get pleasure from eating but that is not the primary purpose of eating.

What we eat is a choice we all make. At the moment a vast majority choose to eat meat as it is the easiest/most effective way to get those nutrients.

We choose to kill animals as it is, currently, the most efficient way to get meat.

No-one should kill because it gives them pleasure.

Yeah, I too like to post crap excuses about pigs dying for my enjoyment to justify my sympathy for cruel sports.

(But I ensure those reading know they were "happy" pigs.)

I see your stalker is out again CaptainFlasheart. No floors to lay DD?

😯 Oooh...I've got one too. 😀

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese-style_bullfighting ]Done proper.[/url]

We do not eat for pleasure

I accept that some people get pleasure from eating

Which one is it?

At the moment a vast majority [s]choose to eat[/s] don't consider not eating meat

easiest/most effective way to get those nutrients

It's a really inefficient, expensive and wasteful way to make dinner.

What we eat is [s]a choice we all make[/s] mostly down to the society we live in

No-one should kill because it gives them pleasure

Why not? Is this what our society says?

Be the change you want to see. If you do not want to see animals harmed then its a double standard to celebrate a human being harmed, for whatever reason.
What you are advocating is an eye for an eye, which as we all know would lead to all of us being blind.

[i] If you do not want to see animals harmed then its a double standard to celebrate a human being harmed, for whatever reason.[/i]

That's just your opinion. Some of us disagree.

Well its illogical, either you are against pain and suffering or you are not.
Its like the death penalty.
moralist: Killing is wrong, we will kill you if you kill.
rationalist: Duh? So Killing is ok then?
moralist: No its wrong. Unless we decide it its not wrong..

Can't really compare the acts of a human killing/cruelly treating an animal for a laugh to a bull just being a bull though can we?
Matey thought that the risk to him was worth the enjoyment he'd gain from it and it didn't work out for him. Unlucky.

Indeed unlucky, the bull was just doing what comes naturally. But it is morally and logically deficient to celebrate the bullfighters pain and suffering if you think him causing pain and suffering to the bull is wrong.
It might feel emotionally good to those who cannot control their own emotions, but that does not make it right.

It might not be right.
I just read about 6 tiger poachers being killed in Bangladesh. I'm pretty happy about that. Maybe it makes me a bad person/hypocrite/whatever. I don't give much of a ****.
The odd douchbag getting killed once in a while hopefully serves as a half decent deterrent.

The odd douchbag getting killed once in a while hopefully serves as a half decent deterrent.

Not a chance.

Just like the death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent, that won't either.

So it's just being pleased that some people died I'm afraid.

.....the skill and bravery of the matadors and the banderillos is breathtaking. These bulls are bred and trained for fighting and the toreador confronts death or serious injury head on every day.

Yes but it is heavily stacked in their favour, what are their chances of actually dying? Fairly small I would imagine, while in contrast the bull is almost certain to die.

And there are other ways to show how brave you are.

[i]But it is morally and logically deficient to celebrate the bullfighters pain and suffering if you think him causing pain and suffering to the bull is wrong.[/i]

Again, confusing opinion with fact.
It's morally wrong to stick swords in a bull's arse for entertainment. Any unforeseen consequences of that are hard luck and worthy of mockery. In my opinion, of course. Whatever yours is, won't change mine.

Not a chance.

So it's just being pleased that some people died I'm afraid.

I've shot lots of bunnies.
And wood pigeons.
They all got eaten by someone.
On the whole, I really enjoyed the whole thing.

I was invited to shoot rats at a stables once.
I didn't like it at all.

I'm not surprised. Bunnies and wood pigeons are one thing but why would you want to shoot and eat rats?

So it's just being pleased that some people died I'm afraid

Again, confusing opinion with fact.

In my opinion, of course. Whatever yours is, won't change mine.

That's sad because I am open minded to change mine, you just have not convinced me.
If you take the attitude of disagreeing with me by just stating "that's your opinion", its no longer a discussion, its just contrariness.
Convince me.

Yes but it is heavily stacked in their favour, what are their chances of actually dying? Fairly small I would imagine, while in contrast the bull is almost certain to die.

True, but they have also stacked those odds through training and years of experience. If you or I got in with 3/4 of a tonne of fighting bull, I'd imagine the odds would be heavily stacked the other way.

Like I said, abhorrent but utterly awe inspiring.

I have been to a bull based event in Bordeaux . It involved a bill blokes in fancy outfits capes the whole ole thing when the bulls charged the cape and some spectacular jumps over the horns plus the odd cowardly running away and hiding from what I assume was a pissed off bovine it seemed to cover all the Bullfighting bases save for the torture and killing .
I can't say I agreed with the event, just as I object to steeplechases I'm sure the animals at the Center of the spectacle were not volunteers and could have thought of better things to do with their time , but it was a damn sight less unedifying than the drawn out ritual killing of a wounded animal for pleasure.

[i]Convince me.[/i]

Read the rest of the thread? watch a bullfight?
I suppose, the difference is (as in a lot of cases on stw), what someone else thinks doesn't concern me in the slightest.

If you or I got in with 3/4 of a tonne of fighting bull, I'd imagine the odds would be heavily stacked the other way.

Yes but it would be even more "utterly awe inspiring", since it is the danger and courage which makes it so.

Training and years of experience to minimise the risks sounds a bit like cheating to me.

Walking into a bullring knowing that you will almost certainly walk out of it alive and uninjured doesn't sound as courageous as walking into one knowing that you have as much chance as the bull.

I'm not defending it, for the third time, it's utterly wrong. But comparing a provincial bull event in Bordeaux to San Isidro at Las Ventas is like comparing the local amdram doing HMS Pinafore to La Traviata at La Scala. Both opera, but there the similarity ends.

I'm finding this really hard because it feels like I'm defending the indefensible, and I'm not. But at the same time it was an amazing thing to have seen once, barring the clear and obvious bit that makes me wish it didn't exist.

Does that make any sense at all?

Read the rest of the thread? watch a bullfight?

I suppose, the difference is (as in a lot of cases on stw), what someone else thinks doesn't concern me in the slightest.

Its not a case of concerning me, its just sensible to explore outside the boundaries of your own head. I often seek the understanding of others to better understand myself. That's why I am asking you, to see what I may have missed. I am happy to be convinced that I am wrong.

Walking into a bullring knowing that you will almost certainly walk out of it alive and uninjured

Quick Google suggests that on any particular day there's about a 10% chance of injury. Given there are usually 3 matadors on the bill, that's around a 1/30 chance that a particular matador will get hurt. That's not 'almost certain' to me, that to me is a high likelihood that in say a year of bullfights you'll get gored at some point.

Also read that the reason there aren't many deaths is because each bullring has by law to have an operating theatre staffed and ready. Might be some comfort to know you'll be well looked after, but still wouldn't convince me into the ring.

I reckon what would convince me not to go into the ring is the utter pointlessness of teasing a scared and far less intelligent (than the average human but close enough to me I reckon - I [i]might[/i] just have the edge) animal until it's exhausted, whereupon I kill it with some fancy swords - all for the entertainment for a baying mob of Neanderthals who like to elevate the whole act to some form of courage and intellectuality. I think that much might just convince me not to do it. (I'm kinda scared of bulls too.)

Quick Google suggests that on any particular day there's about a 10% chance of injury.

To be fair there is probably about a 10% chance of injury every time I go to work.

We do not eat for pleasure - eating is a necessity.

But we do eat animals for pleasure, eating meat is not a necessity (in this country at least). Except in atypical situations, the only reason to eat meat is because you like it.

Which, y'know, is absolutely fine. But don't dress it up as something it's not.

I reckon what would convince me not to go into the ring is the utter pointlessness of teasing a scared and far less intelligent (than the average human but close enough to me I reckon - I might just have the edge) animal until it's exhausted, whereupon I kill it with some fancy swords - all for the entertainment for a baying mob of Neanderthals who like to elevate the whole act to some form of courage and intellectuality. I think that much might just convince me not to do it. (I'm kinda scared of bulls too.)

What might convince you to change your mind is the amount that top bullfighters earn - local (to me) boy José Tomás earns something like a minimum of 300,000€ for an afternooon's work; in Ventas or one of the other top rings that might go up to 450,000€. He's a top bullfighter, a household name in Spain. But even a lesser known torero will still earn a decent amount.

Bullfighters earn lots. Who knew. 😀

(Still wouldn't convince me, though I imagine plenty would have the kind of moral flexibility to change their minds.)

Bullfighters earn lots. Who knew

😀

We all have our price 8)

You mean like the yummy pig that died for my breakfasting pleasure? (Locally sourced happy pigs by the way! )

As long as you performed some sort of traditional ritual like stabbing it with a knife and fork, just to make sure it wasn't going to leap off the plate and attack you, then that's all right.

Whether the bull is going to end up on someone's dinner plate is not really the issue for me, its the song and dance that's performed to get it to its final resting place.

Hey! Is Fran coming out to play?
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