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You can try and justify the fallacy that slow cars are safer all you want but the fact is, a car that accelerates, brakes and handles better will be safer at any given speed or in any given road situation when compared with a lesser model.
I'm going to use myself as an example here. I have both a supercar and a relatively slow modern family wagon. Obviously the supercar has by far the better brakes, handling, tyres etc. But I am definitely safer when driving the family wagon. No doubt about it. It's not like I drive like a dick, but the mentality is totally different. I realise the risks involved in driving a high performance car on a public road and that is really half the battle. It's one of the problems with modern high performance cars. The performance is quite easily accessible to any numpty. I also have a classic sportscar to remind me how much harder it actually is to drive fast without all the electronics. It makes me feel more vulnerable, which is not a bad thing. But in all cases it's other road users that scare me the most by far.
I have a nice car, it has some hundreds of horse power, but I don't drive it any faster than my other cars that were 'slower',
So why waste the fuel? There's only so much petrol, it has to last us.
But in all cases it's other road users that scare me the most by far
Me too. The ones pissing about in sports cars, often. Actually that's not true - it's usually not people in real sports cars, it's usually executive cars.
moshimonsterOkay, my car has just shy of 400 hp and is a full blown modern day sportscar.
moshimonster
I have a supercar
Okay, stop teasing us, what have you got if you don't mind.
But you have a fast car so you MUST drive fast otherwise why would you buy a fast car......? So the rest of your post is far too sensible for you to actually believe.
That's just it, I do drive pretty fast - too fast sometimes and I bollock myself for it later. I'm just more aware of the risks than most (grown up in motorsport). Also now in my mid 40s with 2 young kids so learned to calm down a bit. The 5 car overtake was something I did all too regularly 10 years ago, but luckily I got away with it. If I look back at my driving style as a 20 year old I was a ****ing idiot at times. A lucky idiot.
Me too. The ones pissing about in sports cars, often. Actually that's not true - it's usually not people in real sports cars, it's usually executive cars.
Passat drivers are the worst IMO 😉
EDIT: just realised Molgrips passat is more powerful than mine 👿
In reference to vunerability have ridden motorbikes, it really helped my awarenes of potential dangers, riding with the mindset that everyone was going to do the most stupid thing possible at any point saved me from a couple of crashes.
With the benefit of age & experience most people will look back and shudder a point they did something stupid and were lucky to get away with it.
I'm without at least 6 friends that have been lost to bike or car RTAs when we were younger almost all down to another drivers mistake.
Okay, stop teasing us, what have you got if you don't mind.
A Nissan Qashqai 1.5D 🙂
Moshimonster, I admire your honesty.
Whilst we're at it - I've driven too fast plenty of times too, and also been distracted and made mistakes. Came pretty close to being properly killed in a major way once, by being too keen to overtake on the only straight bit for miles, and not waiting for a full clear view of the road.
molgrips - MemberI have a nice car, it has some hundreds of horse power, but I don't drive it any faster than my other cars that were 'slower',
So why waste the fuel? There's only so much petrol, it has to last us.
Because I like nice cars, I enjoy them. They're nice places to be, comfortable etc.
Just like I enjoy my bikes. I could ride an entry level bike, but like most people on here I like nice bikes, one that far exceeds my abilities. It gets upgraded because something new comes along rather than it needs it. Did it need a pair of Pikes, are they going to change how I can ride. No not really.
The comparison between nice cars and nice bikes are really very simlar, it's just one is accepted on STW and the other isn't.
Passat drivers are the worst IMO
I'm forever overtaking them...
Because I like nice cars, I enjoy them. They're nice places to be, comfortable etc.
Oh so do I.. but they don't have to be fast to be nice. You can get some very economical cars that are also nice, and plenty fast enough.
I'm forever overtaking them...
Oh it's you, is it? You bastard.
Driving fast is more dangerous than driving sensibly, and you can do it in any car. Fast cars are for driving fast. If you're not going to drive fast don't buy a fast car. If you are, then it's dangerous so don't. Therefore you don't need a fast car.
Even if you don't drive fast, a more capable car is still safer at the slower speed you're driving at than a less capable car.
Where I live, away from the congested south, plenty of places where a 5 car overtake is both frequently possible and safe. If another driver in the queue ahead pulls out unexpectedly I'm ready for that and will overtake appropriately with this in mind from the outset. Sometimes this means overtaking slower initially, giving the vehicles ahead more room and more a chance to see me, and then when alongside the final vehicle in the queue (often a truck which others won't overtake) giving it more power to get back on to the correct side of the road more quickly.
In a less powerful car you don't have these options which means that you frequently see rushed, badly thought through overtakes with little margin for error performed by drivers in TDi repmobiles etc. With a powerful car you have much more time to access the situation correctly whilst still performing the same overtake in less time and in a more relaxed fashion, with a greater margin of safety than you can in an averagely powered car.
Can't see anything wrong with that?
it's usually not people in real sports cars, it's usually executive cars.
My car is a magnet for these stereotypes. It's usually the predictable Audi diesel on a quiet boring dual carriageway. I try not to take the bait, but sometimes just can't help myself. Never had a problem on a twisty B-road though, nothing ordinary can live with it then.
I'm amazed that nobody's pointed out that it's infinitely safer to overtake when you have your lights on full-beam*
*but only if your car has a big enough engine to handle the power loss from running the lights, obvs.
Can't see anything wrong with that?
Hope your luck doesn't run out then mate. You seem shall we say over-confident.
I'm now intrigued as to how often you make these big passes? Are we talking daily, weekly, monthly etc?
If another driver in the queue ahead pulls out unexpectedly I'm ready for that
If someone swings straight out into you there's nothing you can do about it.
Can't see anything wrong with that?
That's what worries me! Multi car overtakes at speed are extremely dangerous.
FWIW I've seen plenty of stupid overtakes in both fast and slow cars. Those in fast cars seem to be a bit obsessed with 'making progress' so they will try and grab the stupidest little snippets of gaps and still risk everything.
If someone drives a fast car nice and sensibly, waits in their queue and is relaxed, I've no problem with that. Well, apart from the fuel thing.
FWIW I've seen plenty of stupid overtakes in both fast and slow cars. Those in fast cars seem to be a bit obsessed with 'making progress' so they will try and grab the stupidest little snippets of gaps and still risk everything.
This is so true of the mentality you can so easily adopt in a fast car. Also people in any sort of car will take massive risks when they are late for their next meeting, dinner, picking up their kids from school etc. We've all done it to one extent or another.
Can't see anything wrong with that?
How old are you and what do you drive out of interest?
Have a look at the braking distance tables published by German, French and Italian motor magazines, Chris. You'll find the Mondeo does indeed stop shorter than any of the Lotus models listed and many other sports cars or cars with sporting pretensions. Don't drive close behind a Mondeo if you own a BMW Mini Cooper S.
A base spec model will have inferior brakes, smaller, harder tyres, softer suspension than a high performance version.
Inferior brakes because they don't have as much power to deal with. Manufacturers fit bigger brakes to absorb more power on performance models but not in proportion to the extra power so IME you're more likely to cook the brakes on the sporting model than the basic model. The ABS system limits the one-stop performance and again the basic models often do very well, the 2L Mondeo for example.
Tyres (on STW this is never going to end well). Performance cars often have more tread on the road per kilo and less tread pattern. This make aquaplaning more likely. IME performance road tyres are viscious things at the limit but fitting competition tyres which are more forgiving is illegal. Some of the nastiest tyres I driven have been on performance road cars - very good grip up to high limits then slip angles increasing so dramatically I'd call it break away.
Soft suspension is great, the wheels follow the road better. Get the damping set right and you get great grip. Track cars run on billiard tables, roads aren't smooth but the performance look is "lowered, low profile" and the only way manufacturers can offer that look without owners destroying their spoilers/sumps is to use suspension that is too hard. Overly hard suspension makes the car skittery and less predictable over rough surfaces.
Okay, my car has just shy of 400 hp and is a full blown modern day sportscar. I'm trying really hard to think about the last time I had a reasonably safe opportunity to overtake 5 cars in a row on a single carriageway. I know it can be done, but usually if the opportunity to overtake exists then at least one of the 5 cars in the queue (usually behind a truck or pensioner on their last legs) is likely to be thinking of giving it a go too and at least one of them is not likely to have checked their mirrors to notice if a 400 hp supercar is steaming up behind them at twice the speed. I'm sorry, but it's a recipe for a really massive shunt.
Yes and No
So your on my really "dull" road.
5 vehicle queue in front of you about 1 mile of tarmac in front of you, no junctions and nothing coming.
Vehicle 1 (the cause of the queue) is a camper van and is trolling along at 40mph enjoying the view.
Vehicle 2 would love to overtake vehicle 1 but thinks the best way of achieving this is to sit 3 metres from the back of the campervan. Vehicle 2 has a great view of the campervan's net curtains but a terrible view of the road so isn't going anywhere.
Vehicle 3 is a Nissan Micra - enough said
Vehicles 4 and 5 are a bit further back with a bit of space between them.
You've been following this queue for a minute or two watching the gaps between the cars and know this massive straight is up ahead.
As you round the bend and enter the straight nothing has changed, bear in mind the 5 vehicle queue is nearly 100 metres long so vehicle 2 has seen this straight while you were still driving round the previous corner and hasn't made any attempt to overtake you wait a few more seconds check you mirrors and pull out.
You pass vehicle 5 and the road is still clear, so you keep accelerating and pass vehicle 4. At this point you have a choice pull back into to a the fairly big gap between 4 and 3 or carry on.
There is a lot to think about at this stage but you know instinctively that the sun would melt the rocks your driving past before vehicle 3 (the Nissan Micra) would overtake anything so that only leaves vehicle 2.
Vehicle 2 is still right up the chuff of the campervan and isn't even doing the little "peek" round the campervan that bad overtakers do. There is still nothing coming and you still have about 1000m of tarmac to play with. So you commit and overtake the final 3 vehicles in the queue.
To the cars you have overtaken it was overtaking 5 cars in a row but in reality it was 3 seperate overtaking moves that you just happened to link together because nothing came the other way and no one else was attempting to overtake.
Of course not all queues of car are well behaved but you can generally discern the nutters after following for a minute or two. Driving up to the back of a queue and just going for it and hoping for the best is a recipe for disaster
Overtaking is like jumping, the taking off is only one bit of it, you also need to plan where to land
Have gone off multi-car overtakes after one on the A9 at Bruar, uphill, where I overtook a car, which then overtook another, I drifted to the RHS and we swept along three abreast. Not so good.
But the clincher (!) was in the 900S, uphill, pulled out to overtake another car, which was behind a van and it pulled out too as I approached rapidly. Cue plenty skidmarks inside and outside (up the Rest and Be Thankful in Argyll so quite an uphill gradient, impressive stopping power...)
@ richmtb
I've been doing this "fast" driving thing now for just coming up to 30 years and your perfect little overtake scenario sounds just like the thing I would probably do in that situation in a fast car. In a slow car I would just chill out, which is still the safer option. But how often does that situation actually present itself?
You have also made something like 7 or 8 presumptions about people you don't know during that series of overtakes. Only needs 1 of them to be wrong.
It's all about risk and exposure. If you try something a bit risky enough times eventually you will run out of luck.
Of course not all queues of car are well behaved but you can generally discern the nutters after following for a minute or two
Oh yeah? Bet your life on that? Bet someone else's life?
Just hypothetically now - what if you aren't as good at predicting people as you think?
"Overtaking is like jumping, the taking off is only one bit of it, you also need to plan where to land",genius.
You might think you can do it safely, because you're special. Well, physics and psychology are both against you I'm afraid.
So do you drive every where at 5 mph to stop the physics causing you issues? Or are you just an awesome driver who sticks to the speed limit?
I generally stick to the speed limit, because it's a good enough compromise, and that makes me predictable for everyone else.
But this isn't a willy waving competition. Just be as safe as is practical whlist getting around. Bear in mind that spending 5 mins behind a granny isn't the end of the world.
Hmm, it has many of the attributes next year's purchase will possess.
300hp. Tick.
Estate. Tick.
4wd. Tick.
Petrol. Tick.
4 cyl. I'm afraid we need to adjourn to make our decision.
Its a fallacy that sports/performance cars brake better. In a standing brake test from any given speed to zero a performance car will not outbrake a 'normal' car in terms of braking distance. Where performance car brakes are better is when you subject them to repeated heavy braking, as you would on a track, as they have much better heat dissipation capability and therefore will last longer before brake fade becomes an issue. Brake fade is not an issue on any modern car under normal driving conditions as you only brake hard once in a while and the brakes have a lot of time to cool down between heavy braking events. So misguided opinions like this just reinforce the false sense of security that performance cars give their drivers in normal driving situations, which may lead them to drive beyond their abilities and think everything is fine until something unexpected happens and all of a sudden they're carrying an extra 30mph or so into a sticky situation.
I agree that just because you drive a performance car doesn't necessarily mean you're at any more risk - actually most people I know with expensive performance cars actually drive them very slowly and carefully because they are very conscious about the huge amount of £'s they put into the fuel tank every month, the ridiculous cost of tyres, brakes and other running costs and the huge excess they've had to accept on their insurance to get their premiums down to an affordable level. Its a classic paradox. The vast majority of the people owning these cars either cannot afford, are not able, or don't have the opportunity to exploit anywhere near the performance potential of the car and are relegated to the odd straight line blast of acceleration or overtake manoeuvre to get their kicks. I like performance cars as much as the next man, but even I can't square this circle.
I hope I'm never riding my bike (remember those) on the road while some of you are trying to overtake 5 cars on the same stretch.
I hope I'm never riding my bike (remember those) on the road while some of you are trying to overtake 5 cars on the same stretch.
For what reason? We have eyes!
It's all about risk and exposure. If you try something a bit risky enough times eventually you will run out of luck.
Sorry but it's got nothing to do with 'risk' or 'luck'. If you genuinely believe this then you can't be a very perceptive or proactive driver?
A well planned overtake should keep the risks to an absolute minimum and should not require any degree of 'luck' to perform in perfect safety. Okay you could argue that you don't have to overtake do you, but this is the real world we live in, not some driving utopia where everyone is happy to drive to the lowest common denominator.
Fast cars are not just about driving quickly. Any decent fast car even when traveling slowly will have better steering feel, better balance and better responsiveness. It will also feel more special and lets face it, not everyone in life is satisfied with mediocrity, driving the same jelly mould car as every other person or being sensible all the time. Why would you settle for eating basic porridge all your life when you can add some honey and fruit to make it taste so much better?
Sorry but it's got nothing to do with 'risk' or 'luck'. If you genuinely believe this then you can't be a very perceptive or proactive driver?
okay whatever, I must be a shit driver then. Can live with that.
okay whatever, I must be a shit driver then. Can live with that.
Fair enough, I couldn't.
@wobbliscott - I don't know where to start with all that nonsense you have written, so as it's Friday I'll let someone else have a go.
Fair enough, I couldn't.
Let us know if you beat your PB overtaking effort at the weekend.
What's even more frightening is when you are a passenger in a seriously fast left hand drive car being driven in this country on the left. The bit that is going to hit first if your driver gets it wrong is your side!!!!!
Luckily I was in a Lancia Delta Integrale at the time and God that was quick.
Still did the 5 pence 50 pence dance though!
I hope I'm never riding my bike (remember those) on the road while some of you are trying to overtake 5 cars on the same stretch.
For what reason? We have eyes!
Hay wagon obscures view of bike, wagon pulls out a bit to pass cyclist as you are closing at 90mph - kaboom.
It's not hard for me to imagine these scenarios - you should too.
Why would you settle for eating basic porridge all your life when you can add some honey and fruit to make it taste so much better?
Lol.. it's only a car, it's not your life.
wobbliscott - MemberIts a fallacy that sports/performance cars brake better. In a standing brake test from any given speed to zero a performance car will not outbrake a 'normal' car in terms of braking distance.
No, it's a fact. The 60-0 stopping distance for most average cars is about 140ft. Something like a Porsche Boxster or a WRX STI is about 112ft. A Nissan GTR 99ft. Some serious exotica can do it in around 90ft. 60ft shorter than most cars. That to me is out braking.
No, it's a fact. The 60-0 stopping distance for most average cars is about 140ft. Something like a Porsche Boxster or a WRX STI is about 112ft. A Nissan GTR 99ft. Some serious exotica can do it in around 90ft.
Quite, and the difference is even more pronounced in real world scenarios, e.g. say braking from 80mph to 40mph.
Same road, same conditions those cars you quote can't beat boring cars by anything like that. The amazing figures often come from American tests performed on high-grip racing circuits.
Here's the top eight in a 200 car comparative by Autoplus in France. 130kmh to 0kmh:
1er Mercedes CLS 350 avec 62 metres de distance de freinage
2e Mitsubishi Lancer evo 9 avec 62 metres
3e Opel Astra GTC OPC avec 62 m
4e Peugeot 207 1.6 HDi 110cv Fap avec 62 m
5e Porshe Cayman 3.4 S avec 62 m
6e Bmw 120i avec 62 m
7e Bmw X5 4.4i avec 62 m
8e Chrysler Crossfire SRT avec 62 m
See that Peugeot 207 in fourth place. Most normal cars are pretty good, it's only when you get down to cars equipped with off-road tyres that stopping distances increase significantly.
Edit to add an amusing one: Corvette C6 72m
Some more from another Autoplus 200 car braking test from 2007 this time:
Porsche 997 = 59m
- Audi R8 = 61m
- Alfa 147 = 61m
- Clio 3 RS = 62m
- Megane RS = 63m
- Grand Picasso = 63m
- BMW X5 = 63m
- Fiat 500 = 64m
See that grand Picasso.
Edit for that STW favourite: - Subaru Impreza = 68m
Same road, same conditions those cars you quote can't beat boring cars by anything like that. The amazing figures often come from American tests performed on high-grip racing circuits.
Okay a very quick google of some 70-0mph distances for you:
Nissan GTR (532hp), 70-0 in a distance of 40.9m
Lotus Elise (190hp), 70-0 in a distance of 41.8m
BMW 135M (320hp), 70-0 in a distance of 45.9m
Toyota Gt86 (197hp), 70-0 in a distance of 48.8m
Renault Megane 2009 (138hp), 70-0 in a distance of 53.7m
Fiat Panda (60hp), 70-0 in a distance of 56.1m
All Autocar or Auto Express data performed in the UK on a dry surface. This is a single stop only from cold. If there was any residual heat in the brakes from previous use (as per normal road driving) then it's likely that the results would show a greater variation with the braking distances of the higher performing cars remaining fairly stable, but the lower performing cars braking distances increasing as their braking systems are more prone to fade with as they can't dissipate heat as effectively.
The basic fact though even with the single stop test is that in the Nissan GTR performing an emergency stop you'd be stationary from 70mph in 40.9m. At a distance of 40.9m in the Megane you'd still be traveling at 35mph and the Panda would still be travelling at 40mph!
Alarming, and food for thought.
data performed in the UK on a dry surface
Yup, a grippy track for the performance cars but not the Panda. The European organisations use the same surface for all the tests. Differences are then very small. A German test of tyres from Bild:
[img] 
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Yup, a grippy track for the performance cars but not the Panda.
Nice try but nope I'm afraid not, these are Autocar and Auto Express tests performed in the UK and these two magazines are known to be pretty consistent in their testing standards. Still, you go ahead and believe what you like 🙄
That Grande Picasso you quote does have a good stopping distance from 70-0 (due to it's amazing lightweight construction when compared against its peers). The heavier VW and Renault people carriers of similar spec both have 70-0 stopping distances of 56m plus. There's always the odd low performance vehicle you can find that has an amazing set of brakes and no doubt you've used this to skew the trend to win your argument. Vast majority of time though the higher performance the vehicle, the better it's brakes.
If you Google hard enough perhaps there's an obscure Albanian vehicle braking test you can dig up somewhere to prove your point?