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How do they work with choppas?
Cloud base is around 4-500 ft here today, and what looked like a private helicopter* came over somewhere between 300' and the cloud base heading directly towards Mt Malvern @ 1,000+. They disappeared into the murk before I could see them sort themselves out to go over the hill.
What rules govern such circumstances?
* neither the usual suspects of the Air Ambulance, Army, the rozzers nor the electricity board anyway.
Pilot could have an instrument rating or be flying SVFR (special VFR)?
likely to have FLARM which is quite good assuming the other aircraft has it as well (all powered do I believe) however there's a part of 'be lucky!' which we certainly used to practice a lot when flying gliders in cloud!
Dark red colour? Flew over Stourbridge about 40 mins ago, even lower heading toward Brierley Hill. I assumed royal visit , nothing showed up on flight radar
why do you think he was only qualified for VFR, not IFR?
An acuqaintance flew for Bristows over the North Sea back in the day. Sounds like much of their flying was in cloud.
Remember being sat on Rhosilli in thick fog a few years back, and a private chopper emerged out of the murk flying along the beach I guess maybe thirty to fifty feet up, I bet visibility was a hundred or two hundred feet (+/- a large percentage for not being trained to estimate visibility). He was only flying sow so we heard him for a long time before he appeared, it was really scary!
Not red, houns. Blue and white with some kind of crest on the door.
why do you think he was only qualified for VFR, not IFR?
because he was too chicken to fly in the cloud? 🙂
That cloud base sounds too low for flying VFR at all, and you had accurate reference points for judging the cloudbase...
but IANAP
That cloud base sounds too low for flying VFR at all
quite.
So I guess, IFR it was.
Flying in fog/cloud isn't a problem, flying offshore would be a major problem if it was. Landing on the other hand...
Best quote, from Chickenhawk, written by a Huey pilot in the 'Nam
IFR - I Follow Roads
VFR - Visually Follow Roads
They weren't flying in cloud, they were flying very low to get below the cloud base though.
Too low for IFR unless taking off or landing.
that's kind of what I was thinking.
i.e. too low to stick to instruments, but in order to clear the topography they would have had to fly through the cloud for quite a way.
seemed a little bit of piss taking really.
After Colin McRae and a few other helo things, it is nice to hear of someone not being too adventurous...
I watched this one doing the same six weeks before the accident: https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aerospatiale-sa-341g-gazelle-ha-lfb-8-march-2011
It's not a nice thought, is it, but sadly not that unusual in the corporate/ private helicopter world.
If he is outside controlled airspace, helicopters just need to fly 'clear of cloud and in sight of the surface' and at a 'speed commensurate with the visibility. '
He couldn't (legally) be flying IFR at the level you suggest. Special VFR only applies in Control Zones.
I think (from my training years ago) rule 5 of the Air Navigation Order still applies for helicopters-not to fly within 500ft of any person, object etc...unless taking off, landing....
I find it worrying that they were flying below cloud, obviously vmc as most choppers do. But for them to disappear into cloud especially as you say there's hills about suggests they have IMC rating but perhaps were unsure of their position.
SUrprisingly there is no lower limit for vfr flight in the UK. All that's required for helicopters in uncontrolled airspace is that you have 1500m forward visibility, are clear of cloud and are in sight of the ground whilst flying at a speed that allows collision avoidance. Not a very high threshold!
The only other rule that's relevant I think is that you remain 500 feet clear of any vehicle, vessel, person or structure.
If they were flying IFR then you'd have some kind of flight plan filed, which conventionally has you at least 1000 feet above terrain and obstacles in your flight corridor...
SUrprisingly there is no lower limit for vfr flight in the UK. All that's required for helicopters in uncontrolled airspace is that you have 1500m forward visibility, are clear of cloud and are in sight of the ground whilst flying at a speed that allows collision avoidance. Not a very high threshold!
No. That's in Controlled Airspace. There is no visibility restriction for choppers in Class F/G. Rule 25 applies IIRC (Rule 20-ish anyway. ) EDIT: Showing me age. Most of the regs are now governed by SERA which is European regs. The minima remain pretty much the same.
that is really interesting. I guess in the worst case, helicopters have a wider range of landing options than fixed-wing...
I thought in class G (fairly sure there's no F anymore) VMC rules dictate forward visibility in a helicopter a minimum of 800m where fixed wing is 1500m, and in sight of surface. Below 1500ft anyway. I could be wrong.
Good luck maintaining 500ft from people, vehicles, vessels and structures (eg every telegraph pole..) while below 500ft agl in the English midlands.
Ive just checked my estimates on alt this morning (<8am)
Im at 50m ASL and the col between Wynd's point and Black Hill is c260m. The col was not visible as cloud base was below, so at the most the cloud base was c.210m (650ft ish) above my alt, and I est about 100ft lower.
VMC rules dictate forward visibility in a helicopter a minimum of 800m where fixed wing is 1500m, and in sight of surface. Below 1500ft anyway. I could be wrong.
The 800m is with respect to Special VFR.