VisitScotland motorhome & campervan survey

Done.... Not in Scotland,ain't been there for years but plan on visiting at some point.

If the facilities were better it would make the experience much better.

Look at France and Spain as examples.

If that was Wales they would look at all the survey responses and then ban motorhomes/campers 🙄

They take over car parks stay all day and night prevent others to get a space , used to be signs no overnight parking

Done. We usually stick to club sites with facilities (Mrs Noise not keen on roughing it) so not sure we're much help though.

Thx, I've filled it in.

Motorhome: A motor vehicle designed and purpose built on a truck or bus chassis (‘coach built’), to serve as self-contained living quarters for recreational travel.

Well that's wrong to start with. Idiots

Visitors come to Tobermory to take a picture of the coloured houses, not a row of white, plastic boxes parked along the Main Street. The people in the one on the left were sat eating and drinking whilst blocking the view of those sat in cafe who had paid to eat and drink there.  The harbour car park gets filled up with free-loading overnighters in their expensive motorhomes rather than use the campsite. You have to take care at certain popular overnight parking spots due to ‘deposits’ left by overnight campers -  since lockdown shitting al fresco seems to have become a popular past-time.

Agree with dovebiker above. I've spent many years sea kayaking, caving and biking in Scotland and elsewhere, often dossing in the back of my very basic van conversion (not a big box). Respecting locals by not parking in sight of houses, stop late leave early, leave no trace etc and for years never had a problem. Suspect many outdoors folk did the same. Then came Covid and the explosion of staycations and vanlifers with little common sense or respect, and now places like the Rhu at Arisaig are no go areas for me due to locals being so pi$$ed off by thoughtless actions. My perception is that bikers, climbers, kayakers etc knew how to do it, but straightforward holidaymakers on big wheels don't. I feel we were seen somehow differently than bog standard tourists. Huge shame and its driven me to more and more 'non honeypot' areas. Just got back from South Uist, where there isn't a problem (yet).
<p style="text-align: center;">I live in the Yorkshire Dales national park so see this from both sides of the coin. When I see what are obviously cavers, climbers, walkers dossing carefully in some out of the way spot, that's great and I welcome it. When there's a line of big white boxes treating our local parking spots as free campsites (and for example filling my wheely bin up when they leave), well that's where problems start, eh?
Respect is all that's needed, although like most things there's a saturation level beyond which tensions arise.

Well that’s wrong to start with. Idiots

In what way? If I was going to describe a campervan vs motorhome that does not seem too poor a start.

Whilst I agree there is some pretty crass use of campers/motorhomes there does need to be some accountability that it could be made easier to get it right. Education for one - beyond terse signs - The official signs in Avoch about 'dirty campers' might get the message across in one sense but don't build too many bridges. Flip the finger and expect it to be flipped in return. Educate in how to by a tourist in a big white box and not trash the thing you came to see and educate about spending money locally. Secondly, the funding of local facilities - back to Avoch - why the hell are the toilets funded by a local trust and cleaned by volunteers? It's in all our interests to get this right and of course locals who get no monetary gain get peeved by the overuse tourism can bring. And thirdly, as the point of the thread - aires. Make it easier to get it right and by and large most people will try.

And agreed Dovebiker - that sucks. Plenty of places have on street parking bans for certain types of vehicle in certain streets and that's crying out for one. Only snag - we need/want tourists so we do need to give them an alternative where they can get it right.

*Declaration - I own a self converted camper

Saturation and entitlement sum the problem up for me. I am in the Dales national park and when you see the odd van in a remote location it looks quite nice, we actually have some that we recognise because they come almost every weekend. When they start to cluster and dominate local parking a beauty spots it crosses the line and spoils or diminishes the place for everyone. daverhp's example of cavers etc. also crosses the line if there are lots of them, so the new campers think what is the difference between them and us?

The entitlement just winds people up - a really low level example was at Cromarty a couple of years ago. The grass car park was heavily worn from some recent works so the grass was cordoned off to allow it to rest. Some big motorhomes came and seeing no space removed the cordon and dumped the vehicles on the damaged ground. There was still no space for one of them so they moved large stones so that they could park on the verge of a house.

On Saturday night I travelled from Bowness to Penrith over Kirkstone Pass. I must have seen 200 campers between the two places. Mostly parked in spaces with no ovenight camping signs. Were they causing any major problems? probably not. I get the spirit of the activity and have done it but cramming together in small spaces baffles me. Would these campers swap a free spot with a lake view for an Aire, I don't think so unless they were forced in to such action.

It is now normal behaviour so it either needs to be banished by enforcement which is not going to happen or we need to find ways to improve the situation but I don't think it will be a radical change

The parking for the night apps probably don't help in this respect. A bit like the bloody Sunday Times '10 best secret places in Scotland' (or wherever) articles. Not secret any more is it? Mellon Udrigle a good example I saw last week.

Don't even get me on the NC500 disaster 🙄

If that was Wales they would look at all the survey responses and then ban burn motorhomes/campers 🙄

FTFY! 🙂

Talking to folk, there's also a perception and resentment of vanners because they "don't bring money into the area." That is in some ways true, but equally I've just had two weeks in the west of Scotland in two separate holiday cottages. Both owned by 'rich southerners' (who drive up house prices) and we called at Tesco in Inverness for a big shop. So, although we did spend some money locally on meals etc, most of our spend went to people from outside the area and a multinational. Not quite so clear cut, is it? We differed little from vanners in that respect...

They need to come up with a solution. Sooner rather than later.

Having camped in tents and campervans all my life I've recently felt priced out of camping. Most places I have been looking at are £40 a night. Double pre covid prices and they are usually sold out.

This is why car parks are full. Either enforce no over night camping or provide facilities and a requirement for a permit like Scotland did around Loch lomond etc.

I'm currently staying in a self contained cottage for a week as it worked out cheaper than a patch of grass, a toilet and a bin. Did 3 nights camping in the van on the way up and will do 1 night camping on the way home. Camping isn't the cheap option it once was! This is why they camp in car parks!

If that was Wales they would look at all the survey responses and then ban motorhomes/campers

doesn't matter which nation, these types of survey's are only ever done because they want to validate what they already decided and know it will be unpopular with one segment or another.

In what way? If I was going to describe a campervan vs motorhome that does not seem too poor a start.

Because they are starting off with a plan and looking for validation and "we consulted". You can be sure after they have done this they will extrapolate it to camper vans if it meets their objectives and not if it doesn't or extrapolate when it suits them and not when it doesn't.

Because they are starting off with a plan and looking for validation and “we consulted”. You can be sure after they have done this they will extrapolate it to camper vans if it meets their objectives and not if it doesn’t or extrapolate when it suits them and not when it doesn’t

?????? Sorry, makes zero sense.

To go deeper - I think this all ties in with philosophy

Is it "Greatest good of greatest number?

Is it the individuals right to do as they wish without undue effects on others?

do you believe the "categorical imperative"

Are you a utilitarian?

Do you consider that if one person can do an action everyone can?  this to me is particularly pertinent.  One van lifer on a honeypot spot is no real issue.  One hundred is thus should the individual not take a course of action because if one person does it then everyone can?

I think all the various strands of philosophy feed into how we view it.  Personally I am of the view that if its not acceptable for a 100 to do something then its not acceptable for one person to do it.  I will not roadside camp again I very much doubt.

Its a good few years now since I studied philosophy and morals but from what I remember many of these principles espoused by the great thinkers clash

Having camped in tents and campervans all my life I’ve recently felt priced out of camping. Most places I have been looking at are £40 a night. Double pre covid prices and they are usually sold out.

This is why car parks are full.

I get that campsite prices have risen. But the type of people of have bought campervans in COVID and since can clearly afford to pay as its near impossible to buy a van for less than £40k. The difference is that many feel that they have spent a small fortune on a van, so it is their 'right' to park where they want and not pay for a campsite as they are 'self contained'

Having camped in tents and campervans all my life I’ve recently felt priced out of camping. Most places I have been looking at are £40 a night. Double pre covid prices and they are usually sold out.

I think this a big part of the problem. I suspect a lot of those who amass in car parks would much rather be on a nice hard standing with hook up etc. but try and get that in a place like the lakes without paying a significant bit of wedge AND having to book it months in advance. Its the old case of demand outstripping supply again.

convert

?????? Sorry, makes zero sense.

It doesn't make sense to you... but your job isn't to get validation for something you already got the back hander for.

It's like our speedbumps locally... I know no-one that wanted them (I'm sure someone did but overwhelmingly they make the road more dangerous in combination with the parking and other stuff) but they did a consultation .. binned the results or we never got to see them and awarded the contract to the contractor that had already paid them their bribes...

For those that still used the road in one direction (most of us don't anymore) they put a right turn box at the top... (to the sports centre) but also on the disabled/elderly bus route... you can't fit one of the busses in the right turn... again, I don't know anyone asked for this but a sham consultation .. results binned and contractor that paid the bribe gets their contract.

In the first example I'd already been told by a mate in the trade who had paid the bribe and there was no point even taking part in the survey. The second I only suspect bribery but why else would they make it impossible for the disabled/elderly busses?

Stevextc i think you have misread Covert's post. He's asked what was wrong with the definition of a motorhome and you seem to be responding by questioning the survey's motives. Two different things

But the type of people of have bought campervans in COVID and since can clearly afford to pay as its near impossible to buy a van for less than £40k.

The troube is that they've not only bought the van, they've bought the #vanlife lifestyle - "wouldn't it be nice just to park up in some secluded spot....." etc.

To be fair, getting onto campsites in certain parts of Scotland is almost impossible without booking months in advance which also goes against the vision of off-the-cuff route choices / camping sites.

FWIW, Gwynedd (N Wales) did a similar survey regarding the provision of 'Aires' (last year?). I don't know the outome.

Mellon Udrigle a good example I saw last week.

🙁

The difference is that many feel that they have spent a small fortune on a van, so it is their ‘right’ to park where they want and not pay for a campsite as they are ‘self contained’

Again with this crap.

Ive filled it in.

I'm up in Scotland touring for a week.

We tend to use campsites where ever possible but as already been said the prices are going out the roof. We have just paid £150 for 3 nights. The week will have cost just under £500 for the campsites alone. Everyone so far has been full. All the sites were no frills with basic facilities.

In comparison we had 3 weeks in the Alps a month ago for roughly the same amount and the sites were better

Not sure what the answer is but can't see it getting better any time soon

I was reflecting on this last week - having travelled up and down to Orkney on NC500 route.

It is only in recent years that there is a greater element of Rule No.1 breakers in the camping/campervan users.

If we looked to accommodate the rise in visitor numbers in buildings, would it work? Hotels / B&B / Self Catering etc all struggle out of season in rural areas. We would need to build a *lot* of those buildings and recruit a *lot* more temporary seasonal staff to cover them. This would have a significant impact on environment and community.

The use of a campsite or aire seems a very pragmatic way of coping with the seasonal variance in numbers, requiring less impact on environment and community in many ways, and at lower capital cost.

I too agree that campsite costs are getting silly. I also think it is related - with more folk using statics, campers and caravans who also expect the Butlins experience and matching facilities. Campsites have responded - but that has upped investment costs a lot. And they of course are profiteering while the sun shines.

Any strategy needs to benefit local residents and visitors alike, has to not put accommodation providers out of business by undercutting, has to be accessible, cheap enough and well maintained enough that people *Want* to camp there, not at the roadside.

What I am personally struggling with is the fact that while I may be a responsible and thoughtful camper, am I just seen by a local resident as of 'them'? Would I upset residents by buying and using a van for roadside camping because the pressure in recent years caused so much resentment?

I also wonder if/when the campervan phase will come to an end. With climate change, how long will we be able to afford to trundle round in ICE vans full of our private stuff?

Link to a survey on Cameron McNeish's Facebook.....nope I'm out!

This repeated thread is as tedious as a few years ago when people would bait TJ over dogs/helmets.

Link to a survey on Cameron McNeish’s Facebook…..nope I’m out!

I too struggle with some of his views on this.

He complained in one video about a new aire/site which cost £15 a night per vehicle. It had a loo block (with cleaner of course), waste disposal and had cost £000's to build a flat area, drainage, fencing, signage etc. His view was that £5 or free would cover all this....

I too struggle with some of his views on this

He's a prick.

Stevextc i think you have misread Covert’s post. He’s asked what was wrong with the definition of a motorhome and you seem to be responding by questioning the survey’s motives. Two different things

Indeed.

I’ve just completed the survey - the link is to Visit Scotland, as surveys go, quite reasonable questions.

three weeks in the Alps

Was it France by any chance? Lots of (most?) campsites in france are owned by the commune and are excellent value.

n dossing in the back of my very basic van conversion (not a big box). Respecting locals by not parking in sight of houses, stop late leave early, leave no trace etc and for years never had a problem.

Same here. If it's near a town I will quite often park on a industrial estates. No one cares and I am only sleeping so view doesn't
matter. Pop into local cafe of road side van for breakfast and on with the day. It's people setting up camp at spots staying all evening/ morning or beyond. Stops locals who usually park for an hour for a evening walk etc.

Note for people if you like smaller cheaper campsites checkout nearly wild camping club and greener camping club. Both have a lot more "nice " sites, nearly wild especially but don't count on loads of facilities.

Stevextc i think you have misread Covert’s post. He’s asked what was wrong with the definition of a motorhome and you seem to be responding by questioning the survey’s motives. Two different things

I have no intention of "validating" their survey by taking it so I'm taking...what El Shalmino posted.

Motorhome: A motor vehicle designed and purpose built on a truck or bus chassis (‘coach built’), to serve as self-contained living quarters for recreational travel.

Seems from that like they are already trying to divide and conquer... (didn't read the survey itself) because

tillydog

FWIW, Gwynedd (N Wales) did a similar survey regarding the provision of ‘Aires’ (last year?). I don’t know the outome.

Be it trails, aires or anything else public bodies don't usually consult to do anything but say they "consulted".
By taking part you are just giving them the only public real data they will ever share "people consulted".

because .. to some extent there isn't an everyone will be happy on something like this ... so they just want to validate they "consulted"

Not sure of it extends into Gwynedd but a lot of villages in Powys seem quite happy to encourage overnights if you spend some money locally but this seems quite local and individual parish/village rather than county level.

We did Austria, Italy, Switzerland and France so a good cross section.
I still can't see why in the UK that a site with basic facilities and little if any views can justify the prices that we are paying.

Short season, high costs, supply and demand.

Post brexit costs especially  labour costs have gone up hugely.  No one is making a fortune out of this.

What I am personally struggling with is the fact that while I may be a responsible and thoughtful camper, am I just seen by a local resident as of ‘them’? Would I upset residents by buying and using a van for roadside camping because the pressure in recent years caused so much resentment?

Matt - my view is that there is no longer any responsible roadside camping in Scotland - Following on from " if one person can do it everyone can" the sheer numbers of folk have made it unsustainable.

Yes your carefully selected spot where you arrive late and leave early taking all your rubbish with you may seem sustainable but if everyone does the same it is not longer sustainable

Filled it in. I have a motorhome and am away practically every weekend and usually a 2 week tour of somewhere per year. Scotland last year, Wild Atlantic Way this year. I always stay on sites. I just cant see the attraction of staying in a car park or "Wild Camp" spot in my massive white box. I love it but its a bloody eyesore unless its on a proper site or aire.

if everyone does the same it is not longer sustainable

You can say that about just about anything.

I also wonder if/when the campervan phase will come to an end. With climate change, how long will we be able to afford to trundle round in ICE vans full of our private stuff?

A good long while IMO! If anything, usage will increase as they're perceived to be a more environmentally friendly holiday option than flying.

I am constantly staggered by the price of these things, considering how many you see about. There's a dealer near my parents which has an ocean of them, average price probably £80 - £90k. Or you can buy a 10 year old one for £40k.  The latter is nearly 2 years' take home pay on the average wage, for a luxury/weekend treat. I don't know who's buying them all, but they're certainly wealthy enough that they won't be worried about an extra 20p on a litre of fuel!

Indeed thebrick- which is why above I said this was getting into the realms of a philosophical question rather than a practical one

To me it probably needs a seasonal approach. During the summer requires more oversight than spring autumn winter

I don’t know who’s buying them all, but they’re certainly wealthy enough that they won’t be worried about an extra 20p on a litre of fuel!

I think that a lot of buyers are retirees who use a chunk of their pension to buy the 'Van' and then try and exist as cheaply as possible, so I think they would be worried about the cost of fuel, but the impact of that would be that they just move less frequently!

You only have to peek at a few motorhome forums to see how tight-fisted the owners are (even the 'rich' ones!).

FWIW, Gwynedd (N Wales) did a similar survey regarding the provision of ‘Aires’ (last year?). I don’t know the outome.

I've just bothered to check:

"After securing funding through the Welsh Government’s Brilliant Basics programme (May 2022) Cyngor Gwynedd hopes to trial five ‘aire’-style overnight sites for motorhomes and campervans, as part of a project to further prevent the environmental and social problems caused by illegal camping.

If permission is granted, each of the five Arosfan sites will have space for up to nine fee-paying motorhomes or campervans to park for a maximum of 48 hours, and will include facilities for fresh water, chemical wastewater, recycling and general rubbish. Activities associated with traditional campsites – such as campfires and barbecues – will not be permitted."

A good result, I think.

By taking part you are just giving them the only public real data they will ever share “people consulted”.

I think you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Not sure of it extends into Gwynedd but a lot of villages in Powys seem quite happy to encourage overnights if you spend some money locally but this seems quite local and individual parish/village rather than county level.

Powys is very progressive in this respect, and quite unusual.

People are price sensitive in odd ways. The cost of a plastic bag or annual road tax or 5p extra on fuel at motorway services are actually almost immaterial in thr context of the larger transaction - but many people change their behaviour totally around them.

Both owned by ‘rich southerners’ (who drive up house prices) and we called at Tesco in Inverness for a big shop.

They didn't drive up house prices - you did! No tourists means no holiday rentals and the owners would sell or rent as normal residential. They also pay council tax locally, employ local cleaners, trades and maintenance people etc...unlike holidaymakers that park in laybys and poop in bags.

Everyone is keen on building aires. Does that mean tarmacing over more land so that drivers of £50k campervans can get cheap or free accommodation at the council's expense?