[Closed] Vegans?

My perception is that fish isn't so bad from that perspective.

I've been vegetarian since my early mid-life crisis in 1989 (another element of which was buying my first mountain bike). I don't eat meat because I wouldn't be prepared to cut the throat of a cow or a pig so I don't think it's right to ask someone else to do it for me. It's also true that farming animals for meat is pretty bad for the planet, but since that's probably screwed beyond redemption already that's probably not so important any more. I'm always slightly uncomfortable that I haven't taken the next step to veganism, which I freely admit is due to laziness more than anything else.

My Missus is vegetarian and has often rejected meat substitute dishes because they are too meat-like.

Has anyone else actually seen a veggie/vegan "broken" by bacon? I only have one data point, so cannot yet join in any generic bacon based LOLs based on some possibly mythical inherent bacon lust.

I was vegetarian for about 6 years - having to eat out everyday in Madrid 15 years ago put paid to that... it just wasn't possible, at least not healthily and not for more than a week or two. When I finally gave in to the inevitable and had some meat I went for a bacon sandwich as it was apparently the thing to have - and meh. It was alright, but nothing special.

For me meat just isn't a foodstuff - I've as much interest in eating meat/lab grown meat/stuff that purports to look and taste like meat as I have in eating carpet slippers or traffic cones. And the smell of bacon makes me think of crematoria.

I don't know what the last 4 pages have been about because I can't be arsed reading them and I've drunk a significant amount of Aspall Imperial Vintage 286 cider.

Anyway, the other half has been vegan just over a year now, mainly for environmental reasons but also because of animal welfare stuff. She still gets jealous when I make a bacon sandwich. She has tried meatfree bacon, so did I, it was minging.

I can understand why she has done it but I just can't bring myself to follow. I enjoy food way too much to have to limit my options. I did really enjoy cooking but now I have limits on what I can cook (unless I go the extra mile to make something separate for her) which can get a bit frustrating.

Anyway, I'm going to bed this cider has done me in.

Why would a vegetarian want to eat something that pretends to be meat?

As I've said once, why would you eat a chicken burger that pretends to be beef?

For me meat just isn't a foodstuff - I've as much interest in eating meat/lab grown meat/stuff that purports to look and taste like meat as I have in eating carpet slippers or traffic cones. And the smell of bacon makes me think of crematoria.

Right there with you. I don't see it as food either, "why don't you eat meat?" is as alien to me as "why don't you eat turds?"

Well to quote Mr Attenborough . . .

Wonder what impact a career spent encountering animals has had on Sir David’s own lifestyle choices. He hasn’t been tempted by vegetarianism?

“As a scientist I can see perfectly well that Homo sapiens is an omnivore. So I think I can have a mixed diet with some degree of biological logic. And, providing the animals that you eat have been kept [and killed] in a reasonable, humane way, I think you needn’t worry.”

Has he been to an abattoir?

“I have seen animals being killed and it’s not a pleasant sight. But then there are quite a lot of realities of life [that] are not pleasant.”

is-ought fallacy

Why would a vegetarian want to eat something that pretends to be meat?

Like me, I guess many if not most vegans / vegetarians ate meat at some point. I know too much to eat meat these days but that doesn't mean I didn't like the taste of it.

This is linked in with peoples opinions that vegans just want to eat healthy food. F- that! Load me up on Skittles and Oreos baby!

Bacon - I always liked the smell of dead sliced up pig being fried but the end result was always a bit of a let down. You start off with a pan full food, and it shrivels up to hardly anything. Just a bit of stringy crispy fat.

Unfortunately meat eating is tied up with status and bravado. Hence people posting up daft comments on here, or people talking about 'meat sweats' as if gorging ones self is something to be proud on. More people are educating themselves and making less selfish choices. We'll have to see how that continues as for many people status is an intricate part of life.

I'm now pretty much a veggie. I'll still eat decent, quality meat on occasion, but not often. I've reduced my intake of dairy but still have it in my diet.

Being a vegan just seems logical to me;

1. Generally its more healthy, I know a few slightly over-weight veggies (me included) but certainly no obsese vegans 🙂
2. Less environmentally damaging / a plant based diet requires less land & water to sustain and emits far fewer (if any) greenhouse gases.
3. Greatly reduces animal cruelty

As for bacon; cooked human flesh smells/looks a lot like a cooked pig flesh, would you tuck into that?

Bacon - I always liked the smell of dead sliced up pig being fried but the end result was always a bit of a let down. You start off with a pan full food, and it shrivels up to hardly anything. Just a bit of stringy crispy fat.

Only cheap shitty bacon does that as its been wet cured (ie pumped full of water). Good quality dry cured bacon wont.

As for bacon; cooked human flesh smells/looks a lot like a cooked pig flesh, would you tuck into that?

Ask again when we have run out of pigs.

but certainly no obsese vegans

Not fully vegan yet (but getting there), I am definitely obese but have lost some weight lately. Not veggie/vegan for health reasons but if I lose a bit of weight as a result I won't be upset about it.

Skittles are nice though, especially the big bags...

Ask again when we have run out of pigs.

😆

As for bacon; cooked human flesh smells/looks a lot like a cooked pig flesh, would you tuck into that?

Resembles it yes It's very close which is why pig flesh is often used to practice medical techniques. Smells the same when burnt? Certainly not.

Unfortunately meat eating is tied up with status and bravado.

I think I eat meat because I'm an omnivore. it would be disingenuous though to deny that the consumption of meat has never been related to status (like salt, sugar, spices, white bread have been in the past).

What a dumb thing to say.

I can assure you it is not.

It is most certainly seen as "manly" by a lot of males to eat piles of meat. As such it is seen as being weak to not eat meat.

Yup it does carry a bravado associated with.

So, I have a question for vegans/vegetarians, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts...

Inevitably, one day, we'll be able to grow "meat" from stem cells in big vats (not too dissimilar to quorn, I guess). It won't have been anywhere near an animal, apart from it will, technically, be flesh. Would you eat it?

[url= http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/there-is-nothing-pretentious-about-being-a-vegan-723?utm_source=vicetwitteruk ]Most vegans I know[/url]
it's worth a read 🙂

Inevitably, one day, we'll be able to grow "meat" from stem cells in big vats (not too dissimilar to quorn, I guess). It won't have been anywhere near an animal, apart from it will, technically, be flesh. Would you eat it?

When there's plenty of existing food on the planet to feed everyone, why on earth would we need to grow meat from stem cells?
I get it, it will probably have a smaller footprint than current meat, but it will probably be pretty expensive, so limited to a small number of customers, therefore not particularly sustainable as a food source.
Also, way too much money is invested in the current systems of agriculture, which have been monopolised to such a point that the political lobbyists would soon put a stop to anything that threatens their profits, as this sort of thing might.
Long answer, but no, I would not eat it, as, for me, being vegan is about more than animal welfare.

Inevitably, one day, we'll be able to grow "meat" from stem cells in big vats (not too dissimilar to quorn, I guess). It won't have been anywhere near an animal, apart from it will, technically, be flesh. Would you eat it?

That's a fantastic question, which I answered (for me personally) on the previous page.

People should make a point of reading the article that sideshowdave posted above. So much truth there.

As for growing meat, as someone who liked the taste of meat and has eaten probably a ton of the stuff over 35+ years, and as someone who is only a vegan for animal welfare reasons, it's an interesting question. Ultimately the thought of mowing down on a bloody steak these days honestly makes me want to barf. I also like the fact that eating a plant based diet has a lower impact on the environment than eating meat. It'd be interesting to see what resources are needed to 'grow' meat, and what the cost would be once it goes to market. So, no I can't see me wanting to eat the 'new' meat any more than I want to eat Kale! God awful stuff....

I enjoy food way too much to have to limit my options.

in a supermarket there are what? 4 meat options? (Lamb, beef, chicken pork) that people use on a "regular" basis, then perhaps a few more with sausage and burgers, bacon and the like. Compare that with the perhaps thousands of ingredients still available to you.

I certainly don't feel like my food choice is restricted.

I can assure you it is not.
It is most certainly seen as "manly" by a lot of males to eat piles of meat. As such it is seen as being weak to not eat meat.

Yes, when I used to eat meat (bacon mainly) I always felt compelled to roar like a Lion whilst ripping my shirt at the [s]Asda[/s] Waitrose meat counter.

I think we move in very different circles! Not saying it doesn't happen, I've just never seen it in day to day life.

I think we move in very different circles!

You are allowed to look out of your own circle every once in a while 🙂

I live in a town where people take horses into pubs.

Some circles are best kept out of!

People should make a point of reading the article that sideshowdave posted above. So much truth there.

A good read IMO. I don't have too much to say on the matter except to offer and exchange vegan recipes. Mrs MR moved from veggie to vegan about 8 years ago so the vast majority of cooking I do is vegan.

Msgd her a link to that piece and she replied:

What a great article - it's exactly how I feel. I don't grill non vegans on their nutrition. Why do they think mine is any business of theirs? (Unless it's you, for example, because you care about my health)
I just don't understand the hate out there about vegans, unless it's something that subconsciously digs away at them because they deep down know about the suffering of animals, etc., and they're part of that suffering.
I get so sick and tired of being thought of as either a nuisance OR being vegan because it's trendy. I don't preach to anyone about my choice and I don't think I'm any better than anyone

In other news

walleater wrote:
Kale! God awful stuff....

wt...? Kale is delicious. In STW style I feel compelled to promote my food choices/tastes and kale is one of them. Drink it at least every other day (along with with ginger and banana). It's good with roast cauliflower as a soup. Other options are spinach, chard, savoy cabbage. Never understood the hatred of greens. Never met a food I didn't like though. Maybe locusts.

I am vegan-curious and am starting a meat free week from today, mainly for ethical reasons, I am finding the prospect of relearning to cook quite daunting. Any simple high protein recipes would be appreciated.

I am vegan-curious and am starting a meat free week from today, mainly for ethical reasons, I am finding the prospect of relearning to cook quite daunting.

It can be, all depends on what kind of cooking you already do (regularly) and yr general levels of proficiency/creativity.

For instance my parents wouldnt know how to cook a bolognaise because it's 'foreign muck' so any concept of 'alternative' cooking for them effectively begins and ends with any mention of garlic or tomato, or spices etc. 'Vegan' food to them is beyond foreign, it's Martian! But they hate cooking anyway. Having a love for food AND cooking helps in any cooking endeavour. If your experience of cooking is (extreme example) frozen burger and mash or re-heated ready-meals then knocking up a decent chilli, curry, pie or tart could be challenging whether using vegan ingredients or not!

Having already cooked vegetarian I found the move to vegan was so much easier. Loving cooking and food/tastes made the whole thing fun.

No yoghurt? Ok buy non-dairy yoghurt. No cream? Then oat cream or use coconut cream. (I use coconut cream/milk quite a lot in cooking now when a recipe requires cream or similar)

Protein is a much easier thing. Quick answer is pulses. I don't favour those big flat lentils, brown, yellow etc except for dahl sometimes. For regular protein source I found those small, speckled green lentils (dark green/puy lentils) have an excellent taste, good bite and have a high nutritional quality. Where before I'd make bolognaise, curries and chillies and shepherds/cottage pies etc - (anything with ground beef) i now use dark green lentils which I pre-boil with teaspoon or 2 of yeast extract and a dessert spoon of dried bouillon or other stock. If you use the right amount of water they will need little or no straining once cooked al-dente, before adding to your recipe.

USDA info on beef vs lentil nutrition

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As I've said once, why would you eat a chicken burger that pretends to be beef?

Eh? 😯 are you being serious? Deciding on a chicken burger is picking a piece of chicken with bun/salad/onion/dressing etc over a minced beef/onion/seasoning combination. One is not trying to masquerade as the other.
Incomparable to fake bacon made to appease vegetarian sensibilities and omnivore desires.

If such a beefburger exists (one made with chicken but sold as beef) I would love to see it.

Incomparable to fake bacon made to appease vegetarian sensibilities and omnivore desires.

Wow, that is quite a loaded sentence.

I think the point flew over Mr SMith's head, that's all.

Deciding on a chicken burger is picking a piece of chicken with bun/salad/onion/dressing etc over a minced beef/onion/seasoning combination.

So you're picking one conveniently packaged source of protein over another. So am I.

What I do know is that if I don't get my flaccid, tasteless slice of veggie bacon every morning I'm just going to have to invade Czechoslovakia, such is my omnivorous passion. 😉

The meat-alternative/fast-food question is really a red-herring. People aren't born with a dietary culture - it is largely forced upon them by parents and peers. As we reach an age at which we are granted independence we get to experiment and make out own choices about the food we eat.

In Western culture we normally develop a liking for the taste and texture of processed meat products with high-fat/carb wrappings and coatings. When someine decides to quit meat they don't automatically lose their (so far) lifelong predilection for certain tastes, seasonings and textures.

I love the taste of bacon. While a veggie I loved Morningstar bacon substitute rashers which I'd cook with eggs and mushrooms and slap on a bap. Full of fat, bite and smokey flavour (and sadly no longer available in the UK) What's actually wrong with that? I think the 'fake, meat hypocrisy' red-herring/argument is often a special type of faux-ignorance or a desire to somehow 'punish' or shame veggies/vegans for their food choices. If you think 'why do I like bacon?' You may say -' because it has a great texture, is fatty, is tasty, smoky and salty'. But you'd think a vegan should hate all these qualities? I'm not sure many bacon-fans get their eating pleasure of bacon simply from the fact that it is animal flesh and that a sentient creature was processed and killed for them to purchase? Some maybe, but not many?

Thanks for that info Malvern Rider, I'm no stranger to cooking or spices, the main issue I have is limited time and making sure the whole family will be happy eating it.

tonight I am making this

http://vegangela.com/2013/09/20/african-peanut-and-sweet-potato-stew/

So you're picking one conveniently packaged source of protein over another. So am I.

Yes. of which i’m aware of it’s content and how it’s not chicken masquerading as beef.
your comment suggested the existence of a beef burger that did not contain beef but chicken pretending to be beef.
thats my beef.
plus it’s illegal to mislabel foodstuffs, we had the horsemeat scandal a few years back, the only scandal there is the fact horesmeat is not readily available over here. 🙁

TBH I think a lot of the "preachiness" vs "everyone says the same thing about bacon" thing is just 2 sides of the same coin. (I'm not a vegan but I'm gluten free (coeliac) and there's some similarities. Basically, people are inteested in it and will ask questions, because it's rare enough that they might not know anyone else that practices the same diet. And it's always the same questions, which when you're used to living with it, and you get the same questions over and over, may seem stupid, ignorant, or rude, but to the person asking are just the obvious questions. So you develop stock responses- but people can smell a stock response a mile off and it'll always feel like a pr statement/preach.

Not sure why people get prickly about "I couldn't do it" tbh- if you ride a tricky section and someone says they couldn't do it, it's a compliment.

re substitutes, the only reason to eat them is because you like them. Quite often a substitute isn't exactly the same but that only matters if you want it to be, otherwise just take it on merit. (when I was going onto my diet, I turned my nose up at some substitutes because there was a bit of a "flavour shock" or smell, or texture- but then I revisited and instead of going "this isn't exactly like bread therefore it's rubbish" I'd go "but it's perfectly good"

Drac - Moderator

Yup it does carry a bravado associated with.

I think I know what you mean but bravado's not the right word.

Yes. of which i’m aware of it’s content and how it’s not chicken masquerading as beef.

It amuses me greatly that you're asserting this when one of the big arguments from meat-eaters against such things is "it tastes nothing like chicken / beef / animal du jour."

You do realise I'm sure that it's not passing off, no-one buys veggie chicken" burgers only to find to their shock and horror that it's not actually chicken. But "textured vegetable protein coloured and flavoured to vaguely resemble chicken" isn't going to sell many patties. In and of itself veggie "meat" is fairly tasteless so any flavour is going to be artificial (arguably much like a lot of processed meat anyway); what would you rather it taste of, strawberries? I suppose you could market it as "umami flavoured" but I doubt that's going to fly off the shelves either.

your comment suggested the existence of a beef burger that did not contain beef but chicken pretending to be beef.
thats my beef.

No, I'm suggesting that you can take any old lump of protein, squash in flat and shove it in a bun; be that beef, chicken, TVP, Quorn, beans or anything else. All are equally valid. The rest is just marketing.

Why do you care, anyway? Don't want to eat it, don't eat it. Simples.

plus it’s illegal to mislabel foodstuffs, we had the horsemeat scandal a few years back, the only scandal there is the fact horesmeat is not readily available over here.

Straw man is strawy.

the main issue I have is limited time and making sure the whole family will be happy eating it

Oof! Are they a tough audience? I've found I need more time in order to cook from scratch *all of the time* as tasty/nutritional vegan cooking effectively precludes fast-foods which are so much part of our culture. And cheese was my regular go-to foodstuff to make a dish taste instantly better! A workaround is to make larger batches of sauces, meals etc and freeze or store chilled for next week. Also having a core toolkit/larder of spices, oils, fats and pulses etc - this saves a LOT of time on small, frequent annoying store-visits.

What non-vegan meals would you normally cook for the family, may I ask?

people are inteested in it and will ask questions. And it's always the same questions, which when you're used to living with it, and you get the same questions over and over, may seem stupid, ignorant, or rude. So yo develop stock responses- but people can smell a stock response a mile off and it'll always feel a bit preachy/pr statement.

I've no issues with people asking questions, the issue (if there even is an issue, it's not really) is that when they get answers, they then get all defensive. You don't want answers, don't ask questions. The only time I bring it up is either when people ask or when they won't take "no thank you" for an answer when they're trying to bully you into a ham sandwich.

Not sure why people get prickly about "I couldn't do it" tbh- if you ride a tricky section and someone says they couldn't do it, it's a compliment.

True, but it's kinda tied up in what I've just said. After having the same conversation twice a week for a couple of decades it just gets a bit tiring. Like in the cartoon a couple of pages back, I'm happy to talk about it with people who are interested but generally I just want to have my bloody lunch in peace without having to justify it to someone who wants to lecture me about incisors and depth perception.

I'll give you an example. A couple of years back I went out for an evening meal with a new team down South. I'm self-conscious about eating generally, I'm aware I'm a bit unusual with food and the idea of having to dine in public with a bunch of people I barely know fills me with dread. Halfway through the main course my new boss goes, "hey, where's your meat?" Cue a half hour discussion from two thirds of the table about the merits of meat, how they couldn't do it, how they could do it but they like bacon too much, what's my reasoning, oh, well, here's why your reasons are wrong, we're designed to eat meat, do you eat fish, yeah but your shoes are leather, so what do you eat then, if you eat fake chicken you might as well eat real chicken, my cousin's mate's hairdresser is a vegetarian and she gets a kebab when she's pissed, where do you get protein, where do you get vitamins, that sounds really unhealthy, I bet you want to eat meat really, vegetarians are so preachy, blah blah sodding blah pass the bingo card. I wanted to say, will you please just **** off and leave me alone, eat your precious diced baa-lamb if it makes you happy, mine's going cold. What I really want is to be the centre of attention when I'm eating in front of near-strangers, it's my favouritest thing evar.

Malvern Rider, my son is a bit picky, actually very picky! Family meals would typically be shepherds pie, Bolognaise, chilli, curries, casseroles... just average family meals. Dairy isn't off the menu yet, but I do plan to reduce and hopefully give it up.

Cougar - Moderator

What I really want is to be the centre of attention when I'm eating in front of near-strangers, it's my favouritest thing evar.

Of course it is, why else would you be vegan?

"We're designed to eat meat" would annoy me. Or any other bullshit justifications for eating meat for that matter. It's like every politics thread on singletrack, if you have to make stuff up to justify your position, you have to be at least a little bit aware that your position is bullshit.

Most of that is fairly trivial to work round, substitute the mice for either TVP / Quorn mince or other beans / pulses / veg. They're all heavily spiced dishes so the meat is there for nutrition and texture rather than taste.

One thing to watch if you take the Quorn route is it cooks much faster than beef mince; if you boil it for a fortnight you'll end up with sludge. 15 mins tops, and frying it off first will add a bit more bite to it. If you fry it you can add things like soy sauce, Marmite, stock or gravy to give it a bit of umph. The "liquid seasoning" in the little yellow bottle (Maggi?) works well too.