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Not sure I entirely agree with that, but mainly because you infer that anything other than ABX is worthless. Blind AB testing surely enables you to hear a difference when the differences are subtle. Short term listening tests are also a bit flawed IMO. Not that I'm particularly interested in that side of things. It isn't part of my work and I'm very glad of that. I want to enjoy music, not analyse my kit!
Elfin, seriously 😉
OK Elfin you almost had me with your argument but that last post just makes me think you've got a chip on your shoulder.
Is it that you resent people with money who spend it on expensive HiFi?
I have a pretty decent one, but I can assure you I don't feel remotely elevated from the common herd but I do feel elevated when I get the chance to sit and enjoy some music.
Is it OK for me to do that or am I still guilty of being so very bourgeois?
Come on Elfin seriously. You've got the talent of a really capable debater but every now and then you blow it with this thinly veiled marxist nonsense.
RichPenny what is it you do at Naim?
Is it that you resent people with money who spend it on expensive HiFi?
Not at all. [Edited following geetee's apology]
RichPenny; allright mate! 🙂
Don't leave that vayn unattended round my way... 😮
yeah... what geetee said.. take a valium elf
Not at all, and if you think so then you badly misunderstand and underestimate me.
OK well I apologise then.
take a valium elf
If only! Mm... Valiuum.
Do you know how hard it is to get hold of that stuff? It's easier to get hold of Crack, Smack and just about anything else!
it'll only make it worse in the long run...
I know that more money on amps and bigger speakers give you more headroom for high volume listening and that a good source is pretty much essential.
My mate has a load of Bryston stuff and some very large PMC speakers in a huge room and he can do a full orchestra in overdrive at home, pretty much, serious money obviously. It's impressive stuff and sounds great for regular late night quiet stuff too, speaker cables were 20 quid. Tried a few others and perhaps because we are both cynics we heard no difference at all so he stuck with the Van Damme.
Production Testing, which involves much of the science that elfin thinks we lack. To be serious for a second, I find it very wearing that every time there's a thread like this I and my colleagues are accused of perpetuating some kind of massive fraud on an unsuspecting public. I've worked in pro audio as well, and all the designers I've encountered are on a mission to extract the absolute best from their work. The attention to detail here is on OCD levels, so I'd love all those sceptics to come on a factory tour.
The trouble is people like Russ Andrews have spouted huge claims about his wares but he does sell on a basis that if you don't like it return it and get a full refund. Unfortunately many a poor sap has been drawn in by him and then then whole bullshit just snowballs and is very very sad. Cables do change the sound of a system and so really should be auditioned to see what suits you but I honestly don't believe in paying huge amounts of money for them even though I run a very high end Naim amp set up. There's too much bullshit snobbery in hifi just as there is in bloody mountain bikes so find what you like and enjoy - always works for me.
hadge speaks very good sense.. FWIW I use Van Den Hul 'the bridge' £8.50 per meter.. it's ace for my circumstances (even more so cos it was a freebee)
Rich - I was thinking of getting the Uniqute for the living room as I rarely get any time for serious listening in the dedicated music room.
What do you think to it?
Does anyone actually know what specifically it is about different cables which makes one sound 'better' than another... I'm quite intrigued.
Is it to do with the stray resistance, capacitance and inductance?
Or are all high-end amps like the Naims with unstable output amplifiers? Actually, I'm a little intrigued about this as well, what does it actually gain them to do this? Apart from selling more speaker cable obviously? Is it less distortion? Greater bandwidth? Flatter frequency response? Anyone?
Also, with this kind of setup, does it mean you have to always use exactly the same length of cable for all installations?
Apparently Bryston recommend Van Damme cables...
Wharfedale did a test once using 3 sets of identical Diamond speakers to a sighted panel, one pair painted red, one white, and one yellow, but told the panel that they had differences. The panels opinions was that the red pair sounded warm, the yellow pair lean, and the white pair bright.
Another double-blind test pitted a turntable against a CD player, in various combinations. When the combinaton was the CD player versus the CD player at a slightly higher volume, the listening panel liked the higher volume.
Does anyone actually know what specifically it is about different cables which makes one sound 'better' than another... I'm quite intrigued
Placebo
OFTLOG
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Part of my job is in professional audio - stadiums, theatres etc - some of it gigs, the majority permanent install - I often design the systems.
Not really the same problem domain as hi-fi though is it?
For all those who think I'm some kind of gear obsessed freak with too much money, here's my setup:
Marantz something CD player, reduced from £300 to £120
Cambridge Audio C500 preamp £99
CA Power Amps x2, one for £99 and one for £30 from ebay
£50 CA interconnect
Some £150 speakers, forget the make but the model is F150. Suspect one of those once-good names recycled by Richer Sounds.
QED Silver Anniversary cable £5/m
Cheapest Apollo rack £80 (bought simply as an item of furniture but did improve the sound)
I'd get laughed off any hifi forum with that lot. But I do like how it sounds and I reckon it's FAR better than anything else for the money.
As for why bi-wiring works... I understood that there's a difference between a crossover and a filter... by removing that little link between the two sets of speaker terminals you're converting the crossover into two filters, one high pass and one low pass.. no?
Plus I seem to remember reading that some drivers will be damaged by being given the wrong frequencies, and some will just ignore them.. so in some speakers there will be no components between the amp and the driver. But it's all a long time ago. I did the bi-wiring and amping just to see IF it made any difference, not believing it would. And honestly, it was not some subtle change (like the interconnects were), it was dramatic and blatantly obvious to anyone with a good ear.
Anyone near Cardiff can come and listen, from August onwards 🙂
Elfinsafety - Member
take a valium elf
If only! Mm... Valiuum.Do you know how hard it is to get hold of that stuff? It's easier to get hold of Crack, Smack and just about anything else!
Ask your GP kindly mate 😉
Does anyone actually know what specifically it is about different cables which makes one sound 'better' than another... I'm quite intrigued.Is it to do with the stray resistance, capacitance and inductance?
I think so, yes. If a cable has resistance, capacitance and inductance (which it does) then those qualities affect the sound. Plus on a molecular level the crystal structure and impurities will have an affect on how those electrons travel. After all they are waves as we all know. Imagine sending waves down a narrow water channel, and then dumping some rocks in the channel. Affects the wave propagation, doesn't it?
Production Testing, which involves much of the science that elfin thinks we lack.
No I din't say that. I just said there are those selling snake-oil, as well as people who are deluded as to their genuine ability to hear every tiny nuance of sound. I din't include NAIM in my condemnation of the purveyors of finest bullshit. Some British hi-fi gear is amazing. Years ago I heard some Quad system some feller had had for years; blew me away how good it was. And were I rich enough, I've no doubt I'd have some nice kit myself. What I wouldn't be doing, is bunging £20,000+ worth of bits in the front room of a cheaply-built Barrat box with thin walls. Would be a complete waste of time and money. Be like buying a spensive bike just to ride to the shops. 🙂
I have a set up not dissimilar to Molgrips, in terms of price. Sounds great in my flat. I've heard 'better', but what I have does me fine.
I have thought about the bi-amping thing for a while mind. Could do with a better amp anyway, so what Molgrips has sounds pretty much spot-on.
I won't be spending thousands of pounds on interconnects... 🙂
as well as people who are deluded as to their genuine ability to hear every tiny nuance of sound.
racist
http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html
But Elf is quite right - your room is an often overlooked but vital component of your system. But it's often one that can't be changed. Unlike say riding ability or photographic ability 🙂
racist
Not racist, Yunki. 🙁
I had a flat with concrete floors and my hifi sounded pretty good.
We then moved to a house with suspended wooden floors and it sounded pants.
We now live in a house with concrete floors again and I am 😀
Your listening room plays a big part in the overall sound.
borderline at best elf..
I went to a hifi show recently. Not a single woman and appaling music in every room.
😀
Quite like the 'racist' accusation with absolutely no justification though. Good work!
^^^^
You managed to find some Valium mate? 😆
Not a single woman
Ah, I think it was B+O or someone, employed only women as product testers for their speakers, as apparently women have better hearing on average, than men. Ironically most women don't really seem to care much about 'hi-fi', and leave that to the boys with their toys... 🙂
No Hohum. GPs round here won't prescribe Mother's Little Helper™ for a prolonged period, following massive addiction problems throughout the 70s and 80s. If you're lucky, you'll get a course for a certain period, then nowt, unless you have severe anxiety etc.
Which is the right attitude, imo.
How many of you have worked as hi-fi designers/engineers?
Thought so.
TurnerGuy - Member
However he also pointed out that the designer would not voice the speaker (for those who don't just use computers but listen) using the speaker biwired and would also use fairly normal cable like the Van Damme.
Jean Claude Van Damme designed hifi?
molgrips... the impurities in the cable are already taken into account by the resistance, in fact, that is what effectively defines the resistance of the material, along with electron availability/mobility and fun and games like that.
As for the R, C and L being the source of this issue, I'm not convinced. I'd be more inclined to agree if the values of each of them weren't so darned tiny for a length of speaker cable, and also if the differences weren't so small between cables. Now, while the cables will most definitely have a filtering effect at some frequency, the point where they'd have this effect is so far outside the audible spectrum that it shouldn't make any difference, up in the MHz range as far as I can see. There is a possibility that some tiny phase differences might creep back down towards the audio spectrum, but it would be in the region of less than 1 degree of phase difference, which would be difficult to resolve. I'd guess moving your head by about 1mm would make more difference!
There has to be more to it than this...
Good work!
why thankyou! 🙂
Ah, I think it was B+O or someone, employed only women as product testers for their speakers, as apparently women have better hearing on average, than men.
Which is a great irony, given that B+O stuff generally only looks good, and that's where it's talents end...
You're welcome! 🙂
I do like a bit of totally unfounded accusations of racism. Like when I publicly called my own mother a racist because she refuses to have owt to do with computers. 😀
My friends were a bit confused.
'But Elf, don't you mean 'technophobe'?
No, [i]racist[/i].
'???'
My mum weren't too bothered. She was too busy tucking into her dinner. 😆
Gave me a clip round the ear later though. 😳
I like the carbon fibre plug housings, that stop resonance or something!
My place does radars that operate at 24ghz, and all they ever use us plain old 7/0.2
I got really sucked into the russ andrews catalogue, a fantastic read, and I especially liked the complete lack of graphs or numbers.
it's just a lot simpler and less of a mouthful than saying that you were being generally extraordinarily bigoted and making generalisations about the mental capacity of them what likes to spend a long time appreciating the sound what their wireless makes..
racist is quicker and I knew you'd understand..
but yeah 'racist' is a good general insult.. especially when hurled at your dog for peeing on the lino in the kitchen..
HiFi systems are just network diagrams, methods of reproducing recorded sounds, of course they all sound exactly the same, how foolish to think altering as much as just one component would make a noticeable difference to the sound reproduced.
That is why this:
sounds identical to this:
[img] 
[/img]
am I right or rong?
I think 'narcissist' is a better accusation of Fred here...
Which is a great irony, given that B+O stuff generally only looks good, and that's it's talents end...
You've owned B+O stuff then have you?
My little Beomaster 3500 receiver is great; has a better sound than amps costing a good bit more which I've heard, in spite of having less 'power'.
The way I've always thought of it is that blokes treat hifi kit like women treat moistoirisers and the like. Play to peoples desires, add pseudo science plus some fancy marketing and you're onto a winner.
I'm a hifi enthusiast but also a professional electronic engineer and there's so much bull on this subject it's untrue. Spend your money on some decent speakers, a simple amp and some mains cable for the speakers. And go spend the rest of your money on something more fulfilling.
You've owned B+O stuff then have you?
Yes actually, of various generations passed down from deluded grandparents. Each itteration has had a stay of a few days in the living room before being relegated to PC speaker use in the study. Each of these has cost a lot more than my Denon/TEAC CD/DAC, Arcam amp and Castle speaker set up, and hasn't come close.
I accept it looks nice, but it really is form over function. If I want something to look nice, I'll buy an ornament.
you could buy one of their banana phones...
If you run your hifi at low volume, getting nowhere near max current for your cables, surely there's little to worry about.
Well Zokes, funnily enough my Beomaster sounds better (to me) than my Denon amp, which cost relatively around the same amount.
So, our listening tastes are different. Maybe one of us has duff hearing... 😉
I can still hear ultrasonic cat scarers. Im awesome! I should have all your stuff.
Maybe one of us has duff hearing...
Must be you - all the background hubub of your great city clouding your hearing 😉
At low volumes I admit teh B&O stuff is quite nice, but I've yet to hear one that sounds as composed as a similarly priced 'proper' hifi setup at any sort of decent level. Then again, living in London you're probably in a shoebox, so I guess that matters not (more 😉 )
Don't forget to keep those cables off the floor and isolated from vibration but without the signal becoming inter-modulated by the static electrical field differential between the cable and floor.
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/81176
Anyway, enough about cables... I was [i]so[/i] very impressed with Russ Andrews' power cables that I upgraded my kettle and toaster with his [url= http://www.russandrews.com/product-13A-fuses-DCT-treated-1019.htm ]DCT fuses[/url]. Tea and crumpets will never be the same again, such clarity of flavour, such depth of texture!
tee hee!
What's that old saying? A fool and his money are soon parted??
I'm going to wire my kettle up with some of this stuff:
What's that old saying? A fool and his money are soon parted??
True audiophools shop here: http://www.nathanmarciniak.com/elemental/
Just love that kettle cable . . . . which gets plugged into a £2 MK wall socket . . . wired to a consumer unit with 50p/m twin+earth . . . wired to . . . just how far back up electricity supply do some fanatics go ?
many of these mains cables are designed to suppress the interference that things like fridges are injecting onto your mains supply.
It is not unheard of to have a seperate ring main to feed hifi's, for the enthusiasts.
However surely a decent power supply will filter a lot of this mush out/be unaffected by it?
Elf is quite right - your room is an often overlooked but vital component of your system. But it's often one that can't be changed.
I agree in part with this. Although you can change your room - I helped a mate pull out a stud wall and rebuild it in breezeblock because he didn't want his speakers near a stud wall. We did this before he even moved in to the house so there were clearly no before/after tests but I can well understand why he'd want it done.
Maybe though, he could have just tuned his room (and system) with [url= http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm ]Machina Dynmica's Brilliant Pebbles[/url]?
As for why bi-wiring works... I understood that there's a difference between a crossover and a filter... by removing that little link between the two sets of speaker terminals you're converting the crossover into two filters, one high pass and one low pass.. no?
I can go with that, but that's what the gold plates do, simultaneously feed the input into 2 separate filters.
I should probably admit that my main speakers are biwired, but only because I got them second hand complete with cables. The cable is QED silver anniversary, £10/m stuff, yet he had them connected to a crappy mp3 player through a naff amp. It didn't sound good. When I think about biwiring I just can't see that it can do any good at all and I certainly wouldn't pay big money for speaker cable. Interconnects are a slightly different argument, but not much.
I went to the Manchester hifi show last year. There was a good range of stuff, but only 2 things really impressed me. One was a Bryston PMC combo, £14ks worth apparently, the other was a £350 Harman Kardon all in one thingy. There was plenty of nice stuff with differences in sound, but it was very difficult to put a price on any of it. Some systems costing a few hundred pounds sounded better to me than some costing thousands.
USE YOUR EARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At the end of the day it's about how much YOU enjoy listening to the music and it's all about how it's presneted to you and how it makes you feel! Naim amps really do throw the music at you, a very forward sound that doesn't suit some people and I'd definitely say it's not accurate but it's exceptionally enjoyable. And some cables have an effect on the sound - just don't take in Russ Andrews utter utter crap that he spouts and just use your ears, demo in your own room and see what best suits you - as I've always done! If a dealer wants me spend money in his/her shop then I will always always listen to the stuff in the room it's going be used in - just like when you buy a bike and you demo it over the stuff your going use it on day in day out. Simples.
With regard to suspended wood flooring - yes, it's not as good for music playback as concrete, but it can be improved by de-coupling the equipment from the floor as much as possible.
I have granite "worktop savers" from Sainsburys under each speaker column. A properly-spiked equipment stand coupling the spikes to substantial cross-headed screws in the floor is mandatory, IMO.
Suspending the cabling from the floor is also good - my cheap option is running the NACA5 cabling along the room edge through expanded polystyrene pipe lagging.
Speaker cables should not be coiled, BTW. The best option is to arrange the spare length so that it loops back-and-forth on itself, secured in position with zip ties. This can be a bit fiddly with NACA5 because it's fairly stiff.
The best zip ties for sound quality are usually those plastic ones you find in hardware shops... 😉
http://www.audiodestination.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=160&products_id=1518
Sorry - the link doesn't work but it's worth cutting & pasting to get more details of the amazing Artkustik Audio Animator ULTRA that "[i]uses the regularities of physics to reduce material stress.
It transfers the structural order of crystals to each object, in its proximity. Regardless of which material it is made of plastic, wood or metal.
The Artkustik Audio Animator is designed to optimise the sound from CD,LP,DVD,DAT.MD.analogue tape and video-cassette and also all hi-fi system components as well as all connecting cables.
It uses quartz technology and requires no power supply.
All that needs to done is to pass the AUDIO ANIMATOR just over the surface of both sides of the CD.
It is supplied with full operating instructions and comes with a 10 year guarantee.
[/i]"
Hmm, lots of things for me to comment on.
GT1972, I like the Qute, but you won't get impartial advice from me! Go and have a listen, see what you think. And the factory tour is well worth it if you can get to Salisbury.
Hadge, I would agree that our stuff does have a fast, forward sound which polarises opinion. To say it's not accurate doesn't really tally with the measurements that I make though. Low THD, very flat response, low channel balance etc. I think it's the fast transient response which gives that characteristic. Which leads me to:
Turner Guy, when I get back from town 🙂
Hello is that Curry's? I'd like to place an order for two supplementary, auxiliary speakers, to go with my Alba Midi Hi-Fi system, apropos achieving surround sound.
Well, I guess no-one here can explain why the cables make a difference, and certainly not the big changes some people seem to claim.
So, how come so many people stand up for this claim, yet on another thread anyone who states that a hologram can make them perform better gets shouted down?
It seems that placebo is a perfectly good explanation for one, but not the other.
Neither seem to have any effective basis in science beyond that.
Of course, if someone can explain the effects... I'm all ears...
I have a decent mid-range AV system (Yamaha HD amp / Kef eggs & sub).
It sounds awesome watching a Blu Ray with Dolby, or DTS HD sound, with every little detail revealed in crisp clarity and thundering effects.
The amp & speakers are around £1300's of kit, but (and I knew this would be the case) it sounds poor with music. You'd imagine it would be able to recreate the range and detail required, but it doesn't.
My point being, you can tell the difference between a system that is right for the source material and one that isn't - how far this goes back to cables and interconnects is a moot point, but I'd certainly be able to tell the difference between my set up and a reasonable one box hi-fi in a blind test. My old Technics sounded way better for music - with crap cables.
I understand that some systems are apparently better than others for music or films....
OK So what's the best hifi for listening to nature recordings?
Are you a naturist ooOOoo?
USE YOUR EARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do! Rather than listening to other people with very limited knowledge of electronics but apparently boundless cynicism telling me how stupid I am.
Anyway, +1 for movies being different to music. My problem is that I want one system for both, thereby doing away with two sets of speakers, kit and wires. My home cinema stuff is cheap and sounds pretty good for films but beyond terrible for music. Film soundtracks are a lot about effects, which need tons of bass and punch; my music and listening taste requires colour, clarity and finess.
I think my best option is the Arcam Muso 5.1 but it's not cheap. Well, it is by hifi standards, but it's enough to get a pretty decent bike!
I have watched DVD's on a friend's AV system (Yamaha) with all the whistles and bells effects mentioned above and was astonished at just how horrible a music CD sounded on it.
I watch DVD's at home with the sound directed through my (mostly) NAIM stereo system.
It doesn't make me feel that I need a surround-sound AV to watch them...
Films will sound better through a good hi-fi set up than music will sound through a good AV set-up for sure.
Obviously a good AV set-up will have the ability to decode the HD sound codecs, so for pure AV a dedicated system is the way to go.
there can be a compromise of course and if you will be using it heavily for both, put the bias toward hi-fi
Turner Guy, there ae different schools of thought when it comes to PSU design. Some people have lots of filtering on the incoming mains to try and remove incoming interference and better isolate the equipment from mains borne noise and loading. Occasionally people wis go as far as regenerating a clean sinusoidal mains signal. Others prefer to have little or no filtering as it complicates matters electronically. A commonly used analogy is that the PSU is like a tap supplying the amplifier with energy. Any plumbed in filtration unit will obviously be detrimental to the flow of water.
Rather than listening to other people with very limited knowledge of electronics but apparently boundless cynicism telling me how stupid I am.
Aaaah, of course, everyone who is at all cynical about this has only a limited knowledge about electronics.
Does anyone who is cynical about those power balance things only have a limited knowledge about how they work too?
;o)
RichPenny, with bad analogies like that please tell me that you didn't design the power supplies!
😀
Funkynick, there is a minimum amount of speaker cable recommended, I think it's 3m. My understanding is exactly what my post states, that this length of cable is compensated for in the design. The reason being that running the amp on the edge of its operational envelope sounds better. Sorry, I don't know how that transpires into measurements as I'm not a design engineer and don't experiment with those kind of differences.
Why is it a bad analogy? It isn't mine, I think it's attributed to Julian Vereker. If you want to stack your PSU designs up against his, be my guest 😉
It's bad because you make power supply input filters up with energy storage elements, which both absorb and release energy as required. They just don't work like a filter on a tap do.
The thing is, if you design a power supply with very little filtering then you need a clean supply for it. Where do you get this clean supply from?
The one thing if probably is good for, is to use to justify a certain design philosophy to people who don't understand... 😉
And yeah, let me know when he's designed a 10kW PSU and we'll have a go! 😀
At low volumes I admit teh B&O stuff is quite nice
B+O do 'lifestyle' products, which are designed to work in real homes, rather than specially constructed audiophile lairs. What they do works very well, imo. My Beomaster and B+W 601s in my bedroom sound lovely. I can't see the point of having something much more spensive in a room that's far from being acoustically ideal. Besides, I'm too busy enjoying the music, to worry about the subtle nuances of the 'soundstage' or whatever poncy terms hi-fi buffs like to bandy about.
As for cables; a £30 CA interconnect helps produce a clearer, better sound than a cheapo bit of 'string', but I don't concern myself with the science. I'm wondering actually if CAs £10 interconnects are noticeably inferior, as on taking them apart, they seem identical except for the colour of the cable sleeving....
So, can anyone recommend a simple, 'budget' twin power and pre-amp set so's I can bi-amp my speakers up?
Energy storage elements might have an impact on time critical requirements, yes?
Sorry if the analogy is poor, I'm no design engineer.
Which Hi-fi products are your PSU designs in? I have no idea if Julian Vereker ever designed a 10kW supply, they aren't too commonly required in consumer electronics!
Energy storage elements might have an impact on time critical requirements, yes?
What time critical requirements are these?
But essentially no in this situation. Unless you are pulling serious power, in which case you might need to worry about the line inductance a little.
But if it's all this critical, how do you get this perfectly clean supply?
Sorry if the analogy is poor, I'm no design engineer.
Aaaah, so what did you do there?
Which Hi-fi products are your PSU designs in? I have no idea if Julian Vereker ever designed a 10kW supply, they aren't too commonly required in consumer electronics!
No audio kit I'm afraid, but I am a power electronic engineer, but I guess as I don't actually design for audio kit that means I know nothing eh? 😉
What time critical requirements are these?
Is that a joke?
But if it's all this critical, how do you get this perfectly clean supply?
Sorry, I forgot to reference what someone else was saying about having separate spurs from the CU, an other geeky mains stuff. No-ones saying that you need a perfect supply, just that it's better. And that the result from a slightly dirty supply with no filtering can sound better than having the filtering in place.
No audio kit I'm afraid, but I am a power electronic engineer, but I guess as I don't actually design for audio kit that means I know nothing eh?
I'm not saying that at all, although the first quote is a bit worrying!
A lot of the cynics appearing on this thread with professional credentials seem to be from industry backgrounds that would involve finding the most [i]cost effective[/i] solutions to electrical engineering/power transfer/wave routing problems..
In high fidelity audio surely you have to understand that the economics work the other way around with quality being highest priority and cost second..
Perhaps some of the engineering principals being quoted really don't have any relevance or similarity to the hifi industry in the same way that a butcher doesn't know a chefs work or a hairdresser a surgeons..