A USA backed invasion that shouldn’t have happened, that occurred before I was born. Before you were born?
Irrelevant. This is history and it sets the precedent. Monroe doctrine was written long ago but still use today.
Exactly this. There’s votes in it.
If I was loaded, I’d be holidaying in Cuba, and spending big there. In my dreams…
This is quite a side step though: Cuba in the 1950s has nothing to do with Russia’s current invasion of a country that the USA and UK helped to remove its nuclear weapons to stop them becoming a threat to Russia or anyone else.
Many people holiday in Cuba but that has nothing to do with strategic position.
Again, refer to Monroe doctrine.
Cuba was about the Russians placing nuclear weapons on Americas back door. It’s very similar to Ukraine where the US & UK were party to a deal which removed nuclear weapons from Russia’s border. Not much of a difference.
I'm not normally affected by the news but I'm finding the whole thing quite desperate and pretty upsetting. This is 2022 monsters like Putin shouldn't get away with this nowadays.
Tolstoy described Russia as Genghis khan with the telephone 150 years ago, not much seems to have changed.
thols2
Free Member
Care to elaborate on what you mean?An embargo is the opposite of free trade. If free trade is bad, then an embargo should be good. It’s basically an infinite tariff on imports and exports. If you think tariffs are good, then embargos should also be good.
It's no really that good if you are a proponent of international socialism.
It is not for the West/NATO to interpret but for Russia/Putin. They don’t like other systems of governance. The “Russia falling” is referring to system of governance i.e. democracy.
Well call me an idealist if you like but I think every person has the right to vote in free and fair elections.
Caher
Full MemberTolstoy described Russia as Genghis khan with the telephone 150 years ago, not much seems to have changed.
Fundamentally, what's different from the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan, compared to the invasion of Ukraine?
I'm not going down the America bad route here, I just don't really see a great deal of difference tbh. And I find the whole Putin is the evilest man alive stuff a bit overly contrived tbh.
I'm talking about Ukraine here, the one happening now. Enough of the whataboutery.
You're the one walloping on about Tolstoy and Genghis Khan.
Fundamentally, what’s different from the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan, compared to the invasion of Ukraine?
Iraq and Afghanistan actually were run by brutal oppressive regimes. I'm not saying that justified the invasion, that's another debate entirely, but that's the difference.
The invasions arguably had a worse effect though, plus I'd dispute those were the real reasons for the invasions either.. Ukraine isn't a shining light in all that's right in the world either, there's reasons why the EU and NATO are very stand-offish in terms of membership.
^^ In fairness Caher is right. Crap as some/all of the recent wars were, this is the one happening now and I'm hoping it finally dissuades any and all powers from these explorative little "adventures" on foreign soil.
I know, hopelessly naive.
And I find the whole Putin is the evilest man alive stuff a bit overly contrived tbh.
You got any nominations for anyone currently worse - beyond invading a sovereign nation, war crimes and now allegations of ethnic cleansing?
MoreCashThanDash
Full Member
You got any nominations for anyone currently worse – beyond invading a sovereign nation, war crimes and now allegations of ethnic cleansing?
I've no interest in measuring them, I'm struggling to see much difference in recent history though. I just don't really see the point in building Putin up to be something more than he is.
slowoldman
It is not for the West/NATO to interpret but for Russia/Putin. They don’t like other systems of governance. The “Russia falling” is referring to system of governance i.e. democracy.
Well call me an idealist if you like but I think every person has the right to vote in free and fair elections.
I don't want to call anyone idealist/utopian etc (coz sometimes it is healthy to imagine things) but when they finally meet in the realm of realism the result of the clash can be catastrophic in the context of powerful nation states.
Liberalism (democracy) is good thing in western domain but theirs is not the only system in the world.
I just don’t really see the point in building Putin up to be something more than he is.
It's that attitude that allowed him to invade Ukraine in the first place.
He's a piece of work and it definitely needs calling out.
Navalny, Kordokovsky, Litvenenko, Skripal, Magnitsky, Checnya, Crimea, Georgia, Allepo.
He was a tyrant and a war criminal well before invading Ukraine and the atrocities we're seeing in Mariupol.
That deserves calling out and building him up to be the **** that he is.
That deserves calling out and building him up to be the **** that he is.
But he has nukes as deterrent.
andrewreay
Full Member
I just don’t really see the point in building Putin up to be something more than he is.It’s that attitude that allowed him to invade Ukraine in the first place.
Here a piece of work and it definitely needs calling out.
Navalny, Kordokovsky, Litvenenko, Skripal, Magnitsky, Checnya, Crimea, Georgia, Allepo.
He was a tyrant and a war criminal well before invading Ukraine and the atrocities we’re seeing in Mariupol.
That deserves calling out and building him up to be the **** that he is.
He a c..., no doubt but he can go up quite a few levels of madness yet... I'm not into self fulfilling prophecies myself, I'd rather we left roads back from the brink.
We're as well nuking Russia the now the way some go on.
Those who are unable to see a difference are intentionally blinding themselves. I marched against the war in Iraq because it was based on nonsense principles and was really a follow-up to the emotional reaction to 9/11. I called it out then and the horrors that occurred in Iraq are unspeakable. The current situation is fundamentally different in scope however. We have a tyrant in charge of several thousand nukes gradually extending his reach geographically with the aim to resurrect some form of hallucinatory motherland. Europe's future is at stake as is the future of democracy. Democracy is flawed but I'm going to pick it every single time over a Europe under the thumb of a Putin.
speedstar
Full Member
Europe’s future is at stake as is the future of democracy.
Utter bollocks mate.
Liberalism (democracy) is good thing in western domain but theirs is not the only system in the world.
What makes it undesirable elsewhere?
What makes it undesirable elsewhere?
Their belief/belief system(s).
Utter bollocks mate.
There's none so blind as those who refuse to see.
In what ways are Ukrainian belief systems different to ours?
We can't send nukes as he'll send them back but we're glad you're finally seeing the error of your ways.
In what ways are Ukrainian belief systems different to ours?
They are part of the former Soviet bloc.
They have multiple "beliefs" systems with the eastern part of the nation completely Russian (belief in Russian dominance etc), while the western part more pro-western, then you have the in between. This is also consistent with their voting pattern. Essentially, you could also consider this a "civil war", hence Russia considers this as special operation.
We can’t send nukes as he’ll send them back but we’re glad you’re finally seeing the error of your ways.
Therefore, how do you intend to solve the problem?
...the eastern part of the nation completely Russian (belief in Russian dominance etc),
Are you sure about that?
I'd be interested to hear what Dolly Parton's got to say about all this.
Are you sure about that?
Yes, I am sure. (Especially south east)
Essentially, you could also consider this a “civil war”.
FFS how is it a civil war when one country invades another?
Like it or not, Ukraine is a sovereign state with borders, constitution, elected government and free speech.
What we are seeing is NOT a civil war.
chewkw
Free Member
Essentially, you could also consider this a “civil war”
Only if your name is Vladimir Putin. This is a straight up invasion fella.
I’d dispute those were the real reasons for the invasions either
Sure, I'm not justifying those invasions. Someone asked what the difference was. Similarly, Iraq and Afghanistan were poor countries and not white Europeans. That made a difference, I'm sure. Not in an 'it's ok to kill them cos they're not worth it' sort of way, for most people, but more in a 'poor ignorant savages need a white saviour' sort of way. And also in a 'maybe we can use this' sort of way.
> removed as replying to a comment that’s been removed <
Jesus, I'll not quote that molly if you want to delete it...
FFS how is it a civil war when one country invades another?
Like it or not, Ukraine is a sovereign state with borders, constitution, elected government and free speech.
What we are seeing is NOT a civil war.
Long story short, if you look back the pro-Russian East/South East do not want to join the West fearing themselves to be turned into 2nd class citizen, and started to rebel against the idea. You can debate about Russia having a hand but the same can be true with the West/NATO having a hand in the Ukraine. Then the poo hit the fans. That's the Russian interpretation.
That will be why Mariupol is fighting to the last man then? There are undeniably ethnic Russians living in Ukraine and some of them definitely lean towards Russia. But there was a democratically elected government in place that is not what the wee monkey Putin wants as a risk to his hegemony so close to his borders so he's trying to stamp it out. Therefore you choose democracy or autocracy. Also to state that Russians are universally content living under Putin's rule belies any insight into either the public Vs private process in an autocracy nor the humanity to understand they would vote him out if they were able to. You have swallowed propoganda to the maximum possible extent and it is not insightful.
There are bits of Ukraine which obviously feel Russian, but that isn’t a belief system. That’s a sense of nationalism/ethnicity. Clearly, the majority of Ukrainians don’t feel Russian, hence the course of this war.
Also interestingly, so what if the majority of people in a certain area want to be part of Russia? Wouldn’t accepting their right for their views to count actually be democracy in action? You are in rather a quandary here chewie, why should their views matter if they apparently don’t believe in democracy?
You have swallowed propoganda to the maximum possible extent and it is not insightful.
I see propaganda from both sides which is normal in current situation but I don't believe in either.
There are bits of Ukraine which obviously feel Russian, but that isn’t a belief system. That’s a sense of nationalism/ethnicity. Clearly, the majority of Ukrainians don’t feel Russian, hence the course of this war.
Whether they are nationalistic etc is for them to decide but in the current situation it is too late to debate about it. As they said the horse has bolted.
Now they have entered the domain of realism and that means buffer zone and "Monroe doctrine" in the context of powerful nation states.
Also interestingly, so what if the majority of people in a certain area want to be part of Russia? Wouldn’t accepting their right for their views to count actually be democracy in action?
You need to ask the people as I am merely interpreting what I see.
You are in rather a quandary here chewie, why should their views matter if they apparently don’t believe in democracy?
Some do some don't but the bottom line is the buffer zone. They live next door to a powerful nation state with nukes then they better prepare not to rock the boat.
chewkw
Free MemberLong story short, if you look back the pro-Russian East/South East
I think you are probably over-reaching too much here, far too simplistic a reading and sectioning of certain sections of the country very arbitrarily there. I'm sure there is some Russia nationalists in Ukraine, are they nice grouped into certain areas? Doubt that very much tbh.
I read this earlier when i was looking into something about the pro-russian parties that Zensky had banned. (Was just trying to verify the pro-russian part, which I think is fair enough.) But this was an interesting read, specifically in relation to the last election and how Opposition Platform—For Life gained their seats.
Russian propaganda in the area didn't just start in february. They've been skewing things for a while it seems. and simple election results don't really tell the whole story.
Russia propaganda in the area didn’t just start in february. They’ve been skewing things for a while it seems. and simple election results don’t really tell the whole story.
They need their buffer zone is the bottom line. The rest are just side shows. i.e. Ukraine can have as much "democracy" as they like so long as they are under Russian control.
Info wars this evening is it?
https://twitter.com/carljackmiller/status/1504896238826700800?s=20&t=zEX-bOddE08gfUBzDOgzNg
chewkw - In the last elections in Ukraine Zelenkyy and his party got something like 75% of the vote. In the UK the "ruling party" consistently get about half that. Should those of us that don't support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?
They need their buffer zone is the bottom line. The rest are just side shows. i.e. Ukraine can have as much “democracy” as they like so long as they are under Russian control.
How do they have democracy whilst being under Russian control?
Info wars this evening is it,?
Nahhh ... I don't even read them.
chewkw – In the last elections in Ukraine Zelenkyy and his party got something like 75% of the vote. In the UK the “ruling party” consistently get about half that. Should those of us that don’t support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?
Is that normal in democracy with a party getting 75%?
Also in their opinion polls on referendum regarding joining NATO, South and East consistently voted against. Only the West and Centre consistently vote for joining NATO. The country is split.
…..well. It’s democracy
slowoldman
Full Member
chewkw – In the last elections in Ukraine Zelenkyy and his party got something like 75% of the vote. In the UK the “ruling party” consistently get about half that. Should those of us that don’t support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?
75% in the presidential run-off, Zelensky got 30% in the first round(of 2), Servant of the People, Zelenskys parliamentary party took 43% of the vote(seems it's a proportional system rather than FPTP). giving them 254 seats in a 450 seat parliament.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_parliamentary_election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_presidential_election
The link I posted a couple above is an interesting read regarding the last election, in the East in particular and Russian influence pre war.
All largely irrelevant to the invasion, as interesting as that is, it's all Putin.
Should those of us that don’t support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?
Thats a trick question right? Cos I know it'd be wrong, but it's tempting.....
The Ukraine PM who remember is a drug pushing son of Satan Nazi spoke to the Israel Parliament via zoom.
Twist that one Putin fans (not there are any on here)
It's not a civil war it's an invasion with the beginnings ethnic cleansing going on.
One thing that is the wests fault is we ignored Putin and his early liberation campaigns sadly most of Europe has sucked up cheap gas and turned a blind eye. At least renewable energy sources are hopefully being now looked at.
They need their buffer zone is the bottom line. The rest are just side shows. i.e. Ukraine can have as much “democracy” as they like so long as they are under Russian control.
so, absolutely nothing do to with having a different belief system or having democracy forced upon them
Should those of us that don’t support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?
Wouldn't be the first time. Well, it was the Netherlands, but it happened.
The link I posted a couple above is an interesting read regarding the last election, in the East in particular and Russian influence pre war.
All largely irrelevant to the invasion, as interesting as that is, it’s all Putin.
Too late now as the reality has set in. Give Putin the buffer zone.
Also in their opinion polls on referendum regarding joining NATO, South and East consistently voted against. Only the West and Centre consistently vote for joining NATO. The country is split.
Source: International Republican Institute Survey. Interesting read that but just opinion polls.
Zelenskys parliamentary party took 43% of the vote... giving them 254 seats in a 450 seat parliament.
Eh?
molgrips
Zelenskys parliamentary party took 43% of the vote… giving them 254 seats in a 450 seat parliament.
Eh?
Something to do with the proportional representation.
molgrips
Full Member
Zelenskys parliamentary party took 43% of the vote… giving them 254 seats in a 450 seat parliament.Eh?
what's not to get? 225 seats for the win.
There were 2 elections, a Presidential Election (Zelensky won the first round with 30% then won the shootout with Poroshenko with 75% in round 2) and a Parliamentary election(the party took 254 seats in the Rada, equating to 43% of the total vote.). I posted the results to both.
Chewie - the buffer zone is not ours to give. It belongs to the Ukrainian people - and right now they don’t seem to be in a mood for backing down.
Give Putin the buffer zone.
Appeasement has always been so successful in the past, I am sure it will work this time as well.
Give Putin the buffer zone
East Germany too.
That was a handy buffer zone for nearly 50 years.
Democracy, liberalism and freedom of speech was never their thing during that time either. Instead they embraced food shortages, internment, appalling health care and state spying on a scale never before seen.
Just give it back to Putin as he's got nukes?
Chewie – the buffer zone is not ours to give. It belongs to the Ukrainian people – and right now they don’t seem to be in a mood for backing down.
Yes, it's for the Ukrainian to decide but at the moment they are not winning or causing a stalemate. They don't have bargaining power on their side.
Appeasement has always been so successful in the past, I am sure it will work this time as well.
It will work for now.
In the long run it will be China that the world needs to worry.
East Germany too.
No NATO members have been invaded. Fact. Not even in future.
Just give it back to Putin as he’s got nukes?
What other solution do they have?
Yes, it’s for the Ukrainian to decide
Spot on. And millions of them have decided to stay and fight the invasion, so pretty clear what 'they' have decided.
Many more millions have fled West, so pretty clear what they have decided too.
There are not massive refugee columns heading East, nor are their masses of Ukrainians surrendering to the Russians
By their collective actions it's clear that the Ukrainians want nothing to do with Russia and nothing to do with a buffer zone.
It's really pretty simple.
And let's not just ignore this invasion and focus instead on China.
There will be no more powerful deterrent to Chinese action in Taiwan than a successful and unified response to Putin.
No NATO members have been invaded. Fact. Not even in future.
Exactly. NATO works.
That's why Finland and Sweden are now considering joining.
Putin has made a huge mistake acting against a sovereign state because it makes other states feel vulnerable and is bringing about exactly what he was trying to avoid (NATO enlargement).
Spot on. And millions of them have decided to stay and fight the invasion, so pretty clear what ‘they’ have decided.
They can decide as much as they wish but within the framework control by Russia.
And let’s not just ignore this invasion and focus instead on China.
There will be no more powerful deterrent to Chinese action in Taiwan than a successful and unified response to Putin.
What is there to deter? They all have nukes.
If the West/NATO really want to contain China, then they need Russia on their side. Not to push Russia to China.
Exactly. NATO works.
Yes, it works but Ukraine is not a NATO member and will Not be.
That’s why Finland and Sweden are now considering joining.
Considering. They can consider as much as they wish.
Putin has made a huge mistake acting against a sovereign state because it makes other states feel vulnerable and is bringing about exactly what he was trying to avoid (NATO enlargement).
Strategically no mistake. Tactically (mistake) perhaps by assuming that he could just walk in.
No NATO members have been invaded. Fact
Well I guess Finland had better get that application in quickly.
Is chewie saying that the occupants of Kherson should just let themselves be ruled by Putin?
https://twitter.com/mrsorokaa/status/1505582573174546438?t=MoIe5-TzkmMTA1m0FlYuoA&s=19
^^The bravery on display gets to me every time.
Well I guess Finland had better get that application in quickly.
I think they might get away with joining as the are not really that populated and not that "strategic" in their position. Nevertheless, they really don't want to end up with minor nuke on their land.
Is chewie saying that the occupants of Kherson should just let themselves be ruled by Putin?
No, they don't have to cheer the Russian but they have to accept the fact they are under Russian control.
I think they might get away with joining as the are not really that populated and not that “strategic” in their position. Nevertheless, they really don’t want to end up with minor nuke on their land.
They are far more concerned and justifiably so, in being the subject of a full invasion.
Putin wants Finland back in the fold
Once he has extracted himself from the mess in Ukraine they'll be next
If his plan had succeeded and he'd taken Ukraine ias easily as he thought he might, he'd be that much closer
Hes underestimated how unified the response has been towards his war.
They are far more concerned and justifiably so, in being the subject of a full invasion.
Russia has not invaded Finland since they last fought so I see no evidence of Russia wanting to invade Finland. Unless Finland is really that naive to consider the prospect of being invaded.
Putin wants Finland back in the fold
Nope. As long as they are not existential threat.
Russia has not invaded Finland since they last fought
erm....
...but they have to accept the fact they are under Russian control.
What?
What?
If that is not control I don't know what that is.
Unless the situation can have alternative description.
lol
Nope. As long as they are not existential threat
Ukraine is not an existential threat.
Ukraine is not an existential threat.
Yes, they are if they are NATO member state.
Even intention to join NATO is a threat as Russia is not going to wait for them to join before taking action.
Refer to Monroe Doctrine.
What?
Well quite, precisely no one on this thread is qualified to say what Ukraine should/has to accept.
None of of even really know for certain what the primary Ukrainan goals are, which might be anything from repelling the invasion force to beyond the borders, to stretching and eroding the invasion force to breaking point within the borders to force a more favourable negotiation environment.
Has anyone seen much from what's going on inside Belarus?
Ok chewie you refer to it again and again. Explain the Monroe Doctrine as it stands, if it stands, now. Not when it was written in 1823 but now and how it applies to the situation in Ukraine.
Refer to Monroe Doctrine.
The Monroe doctrine is utterly irrelevant. You need to stop reflexively bringing it up. Let's face it, if you think some very dubious U.S. policy from 200 years ago is justification for the deliberate mass-murder of civilians and ethnic cleansing, you need to check what century you are living in.
Ukraine is a sovereign state. They are not a NATO member. This is not about NATO membership, it's about Russia refusing to recognize Ukraine as a sovereign state.
The thing is. Putin (& it appears chekw) are a bit like the guy in the pub who asks if you spilt their pint.
It doesn’t matter if you actually did, it’s about whether they think you did ( or just fancy a Friday night fight to look hard in front of their mates) that matters….
As weak as the chekw / Russian argument is when examined from The outside, if they believe it, then their actions are justified ( in their opinion anyway) .
It’s hard to get someone who
Is entrenched in a position to step
Back and see how “silly” it looks to
Everyone else. That’s the sad situation we find ourselves in here, that’s why finding a settlement that allows putin to save face is crucial to a resolution ( imho obviously)
None of of even really know for certain what the primary Ukrainan goals are, which might be anything from repelling the invasion force to beyond the borders, to stretching and eroding the invasion force to breaking point within the borders to force a more favourable negotiation environment.
The best hope is for a stalemate which will force negotiation but I guess Putin/Russia might want to prevent that but a surrender, in order to have upper hand in negotiation.
Ok chewie you refer to it again and again. Explain the Monroe Doctrine as it stands, if it stands, now. Not when it was written in 1823 but now and how it applies to the situation in Ukraine.
It is exactly as it is albeit from the Putin's perspective. No NATO in his buffer zone or backyard.
Ukraine is a sovereign state. They are not a NATO member. This is not about NATO membership, it’s about Russia refusing to recognize Ukraine as a sovereign state.
The world knows Ukraine is a sovereign state but they are also located next to a powerful nation with nukes. Regardless of whether it is about NATO membership, wrong President being elected etc, Russia/Putin sees them as existential threats and that's a good enough reason to invade. Notice that Not even an EU or a single NATO state dares to enter the conflict openly/directly? That's because they have nukes and no one wants to be vaporised if situation escalate.
The thing is. Putin (& it appears chekw) are a bit like the guy in the pub who asks if you spilt their pint.
Focus on Ukraine, focus on Russia but try not to focus on me as I am just presenting the Russian logic, since there is no one here to present their logic. I ain't no Russian or Ukrainian. I am merely presenting the realist perspective. Everything I said almost came through and I am telling everyone the possibilities. You can reject what I said regarding the possibilities but focus on the topic not the person. As I may sound like supporting Putin's/Russia that's because I am seeing them from their perspective and letting others decide how to consider what's the best logic for this current poor state of affair.
As I said this is no domestic politics but of powerful nation state(s) with nukes. One wrong move and we are all going to be vaporised.
Russia/Putin sees them as existential threats and that’s a good enough reasons to invade.
It's not. After WW2 the UN was founded to put an end to nonsense like this.
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/un-charter/full-text
All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.