I'd really like you to avail us of your in depth knowledge of (Russian or other) resistance to interrogation and SERE doctrine to back that utterly gash throwaway statement up.
All POW’s in this will say whatever it takes so as not to get gutted by some angry Ukrainians with a rusty bayonet. And i doubt ordinary Russians can get outside news.
Stolen from twitter:
"No Fry Zone" imposed across Russia as McDonalds close 820 restaurants (sic)
Going forward I'll take an uninformed guess at whats next.
Everything thrown at Kiev, the aircraft that haven't really been flying, artillery, rockets, missiles... the whole deal to reduce it to rubble as fast as possible. I really really hope I'm wrong and Team Blue/Yellow reduce them to scrap but what a price to pay.
All my venom is reserved for Putin, Laverov, Lebdevev and their henchmen. Utter scumbags. The Russian masses are in the main ill informed passengers in this and I do hope they have the strength to change this at source.
I’d really like you to avail us of your in depth knowledge of resistance to interrogation and SERE doctrine to back that utterly gash throwaway statement up.
Gash throwaway comment ?.
I dont think so. But you being ex military, how many operations were you involved in killing civilians and then captured. ??, I'll hazard a guess that its the same as me ZERO.
But the idea still stands. How do you avoid summary execution by the locals/ police/military after you've illegally invaded a country and ergo murdered civilians.
Say even for example youre on the group who have just captures some enemy troops who might well have killed members of your family. Would you be standing to with 'lets hand them over to the government', or would you be saying get a rope, wheres my gun'.
As to SERE doctrine, till you mentioned it I'd never heard of it, and probably 90% of the posters here did neither. But a quick look at thats NATO, so are you sure that really applies to Russian conscripts ?. Not exactly highly trained.
Absolutely! The gas supply to Europe from Russia being the case in point. Turning that off would be the financial equivalent of Mutually Assured Destruction. It would have absolutely instant and completely devastating consequences for both parties.
Its a double edged sword though - if much of Europe wasn't so dependant on the gas they might well have had a more robust response to Crimea (or indeed he might have felt less confident about Crimea and then the current invasions in the first place)
While many, if not most Russians believe everything the Kremlin puts out on state media, there are significant numbers who are doing everything they can to get out of Dodge!
https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dgqq5/russians-flee-russia-vladimir-putin-ukraine-war
Regarding International response to Russian threats to neighbouring countries, it’s just a pity they didn’t ask those neighbours for an opinion and then act on it…
Going back a bit, I believe there were suggestions that ground attacks by aircraft such as A-10’s would have been effective, A-10 pilots would beg to differ…
Dear God!
Inside that hospital Binners…
https://twitter.com/zelenskyyua/status/1501579520633102349?s=21
Far worse will happen before this is over. This only a taster of what military offensives on cities by Russia look like. Stop the war. Putin must stop this war.
Putin must stop this war.
Unlikely Putin will stop it, he's on a path and I doubt anyone will dissuade him. Only perhaps the Russian people if they get the support of the military and police can force it to stop, and likely by arresting Putin for crimes against humanity.
I watched the vid of the captured soldier(didnt give his rank) and he was imploring the Ukrainian people to show mercy to captured or wounded Russian soldiers so they could return home and tell exactly what has been happening and it is not the state sponsored information being put out on their news.
Say even for example youre on the group who have just captures some enemy troops who might well have killed members of your family. Would you be standing to with ‘lets hand them over to the government’
They're soldiers and they have orders.
Yeah my bad, I jumped the gun a little. The conscripts get a pass, they have minimal training anyway and didn't have a clue what was going on, they're probably don't want to be in uniform let alone Ukraine.
The regular troops will have had some training no doubt, probably akin to the old big 6 concept (name/rank/number/unit) there's no doubt any troops caught saying whatever they like will face repercussions back home, I can't imagine their military doctrine has leeway for coercion or duress under capture.
As a sidebar, the Russians do have a SERE equivalent of sorts, run by those mythological combat axe throwing lunatics.
Gash throwaway comment ?.
False flag chemical weapon "attack" anyone? Or worse.
West fears Russia could use non-conventional weapons
The ANG pilot doesn't say they'd be ineffective, just risky. Same risk for high end aircraft too...
Going back a bit, I believe there were suggestions that ground attacks by aircraft such as A-10’s would have been effective, A-10 pilots would beg to differ…
At a guess, if Putin is still in charge when and if he ever gets back to Russia, he's probably ****ed.
I watched the vid of the captured soldier(didnt give his rank) and he was imploring the Ukrainian people to show mercy to captured or wounded Russian soldiers so they could return home and tell exactly what has been happening and it is not the state sponsored information being put out on their news.
Yeah my bad, I jumped the gun a little. The conscripts get a pass, they have minimal training anyway and didn’t have a clue what was going on, they’re probably don’t want to be in uniform let alone Ukraine.
I watched the vid of the captured soldier and what struck me from that was he was not only addressing Russian troops, but also the Ukrainian people. He was telling them that it was better to not kill captured and wounded troops because they could then return home and spread the information about the truth of the conflict. From that I would gather that the Ukrainian government is asking its people not to take the law into their own hands and to hand captured troops over to the military/authorities,.
From watching other vids of captured soldiers, it is clear many dont know what is going on, but also most are are young and utterly terrified and it is in the hands of women that appears to be the thing preventing them from being murdered. Even though they are the enemy, it is heartbreaking to watch the fear they exhibit.
I watched the vid of the captured soldier(didnt give his rank) and he was imploring the Ukrainian people to show mercy to captured or wounded Russian soldiers so they could return home and tell exactly what has been happening and it is not the state sponsored information being put out on their news.
I've been wondering if this is one of the reasons the 'traffic jam' hasn't been targeted. The first reason is it is probably more effective to use your troops elsewhere if the enemy have disabled themselves for a while but also if there is a possibility it is going to collapse and they return home then you want the real story out there rather than people mourning unecessary deaths
But I suspect the first reason is more important
These are the same tactics that the Russians have employed in places like Chechnya and Syria, and these are the same troops doing it.
Are they?
I mean high up regulars that actually know what they are targeting, sure, but the actual folk firing the guns? Maybe, maybe not.
Conscription is an abhorrence, something Putin changed the rules on so he can bolster his numbers on the cheap.
They're mostly kids just hoping to serve their time and then get on with life. Now they'll have being part of this on their conscience as well as having to deal with whatever reputations the state brings against them or their families.
From watching other vids of captured soldiers, it is clear many dont know what is going on, but also most are are young and utterly terrified and it is in the hands of women that appears to be the thing preventing them from being murdered. Even though they are the enemy, it is heartbreaking to watch the fear they exhibit.
https://www.monsterchildren.com/inside-russia/
Nothing new but an honest view of what’s happening inside Russia from a “ normal” Russian that’s appalled
I think many kids across the world will struggle to atone for the "sins of their fathers". Hearteningly I reckon most of them understand, empathise and have generous enough hearts to forgive and rebuild. Pity we can't have an upper age limit on autocrats directly involved in humanitarian decisions including declarations of hostilities ( looking at you as well UK) and keep the oldies for the technical stuff.
Looking at the world through rose tints having just spent a few wonderful hours with my lovely 19yr old grand daughter.
A youtu e channel I normally watch for a bit of military history.
Today's video is a bit different, an interview with a Brit at Heathrow, on his way to Poland and then Ukraine to join the Internationals.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iHrGd0BcLmA
Got some stickers....
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Will be handed out at protests in Munich in return for donations to Ukrainian aid agencies.
The non conventional weapons thing is really worrying me!
The non conventional weapons thing is really worrying me!
It's worrying everyone really. But TBH getting out of this thread for a while, ignoring the TV news and doing other stuff will help alleviate it.
Yes it is going on, yes it is a terrible situation, but other things are going on too, and maybe concentrating on that and not being absorbed with this, is going to be better for your mental health.
It is a great strain, and you won't do yourself or your family any good if you don't take a break from it.
My biggest worry is how on earth you can negotiate a ceasefire with untrustworthy liars?
Yeah I've cut most of the news out.
Works stressful as its very impacted by Ukraine as I am in energy. So I try n keep it to a minimum but....
I’ve read this thread from day one it’s heartbreaking 🙁
The quicker Putin accidentally falls down some stairs after accidentally shooting himself twice in the back of the head the better !!
I'm hoping for the kremlin to issue a outlr glorious leader had a heart attack statement
My biggest worry is how on earth you can negotiate a ceasefire with untrustworthy liars?
I can't imagine Boris and Priti will be trusted with the task
Whilst you jest, that’s really been the whole point of the last few months domestically. If you aren’t trusted nobody can deal with you.
Putin is a whole other level though.
"The conscripts are just following orders". I'm sure that line has been trotted out before somewhere. And like last time they aren't innocents caught up in the middle while the bigger boys commit all the atrocities.
I don't care if it makes a bad person, but there's a little pang of delight when I see a T72 or T80 brew up, or a BMP or BTR obliterated.
**** them.
“The conscripts are just following orders”. I’m sure that line has been trotted out before somewhere.
But that's the reality of warfare.
Russian bombing of maternity hospital and deliberate targeting of civilians is a clear demonstration that putin regards Ukrainians as sub-human when it's him who is sub-human.
It's a mirror of hitler's attitude to Jews, Roma and other minorities; the same reality applied there in that the protagonist was the sub-human who used lies and propaganda to further his aims and deceive the public.
A bullet in the face or back is far too good for putin.
⁰
I don’t think he considers Ukrainians any differently to Russians. He just doesn’t value human life full stop. At least not the little people. He’d do this to a Russian city if felt he had to.
A war criminal who will never be brought to trial.
Despicable, pathetic excuse for a human being.
The text book example to prove that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Worse than Stalin or Mao; even worse than Pol Pot.
In 10 or 20 years what lessons will we - humanity - have learned?
Not enough, I fear.
Worse than Stalin or Mao; even worse than Pol Pot.
I’m not sure we should be having a competition, but the three of them probably killed more people than there are in Ukraine.
I'm mot suggesting any sort of competition.
The numbers killed is no form of measurement.
frankconway
Worse than Stalin or Mao; even worse than Pol Pot.
what lessons will we have learned?
That you don't know much about those 3?
Let's not derail this thread again by trying to outscore each other and resorting to personal insults!
In 10 or 20 years what lessons will we – humanity – have learned?
Not much I am afraid because the smoldering fire will still be there for all that involved. The only way forward is to prepare for all possibilities because the next conflict will hit hard, very hard. Therefore, the next 10 or 20 years will depend on the outcome of the current situation. Notice every 10 years something happened in the world that is impacting on people globally?
I wouldn't even bother mate, standard hyperbole. I also doubt that the Russian military differentiates between a lawful & unlawful order. I have a feeling an order is absolute in that mob. Disobedience may earn you a beating or a bullet.
This is one of the very reasons why conscription/national service not existing is a good thing in the UK. Like it or not a military needs to be volunteers, not pressed-men.
But Putin changed their rules so he could deploy them, they're cheap and disposable labour.
But that’s the reality of warfare
A war criminal who will never be brought to trial.
Worse than Stalin or Mao; even worse than Pol Pot.
All died of natural causes.
Greek historian, Herodotus in 445 BC. Wrote, “Whom the gods love dies young.”
As in 'Only the good die young'
Thanks markgraylish; saves me responding other than saying my knowledge of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot is some way above the average based on 40+ years of interest and self-education about wars, oppression and dictatorship.
My general point remains.
“The conscripts are just following orders”. I’m sure that line has been trotted out before somewhere. And like last time they aren’t innocents caught up in the middle while the bigger boys commit all the atrocities.
I don’t care if it makes a bad person, but there’s a little pang of delight when I see a T72 or T80 brew up, or a BMP or BTR obliterated.
**** them.
As with most things the reality it will be a spectrum from conscripts lied to, to essentially nutters who will be happy committing war crimes.
Cheering the death of even nasty people isn't a good look but is understandable. I far rather they just went home and then let The Haig sort them out
I made no reference to how stalin, mao or pol pot died.
This is one of the very reasons why conscription/national service not existing is a good thing in the UK. Like it or not a military needs to be volunteers, not pressed-men.
The challenge to this is the Ukrainian law that prevents men of fighting age leave. It's a brave thing to do in a world where typically they are the ones who flee the furthest fastest. Personally I'm supportive of the decision but plenty of people on here aren't with their "cannon fodder" rants.
That's a fair counterpoint, I do think there's a stark difference between doing it for imminent national defence and waging war on another country.
The challenge to this is the Ukrainian law that prevents men of fighting age leave. It’s a brave thing to do in a world where typically they are the ones who flee the furthest fastest. Personally I’m supportive of the decision but plenty of people on here aren’t with their “cannon fodder” rants.
I don’t care if it makes a bad person, but there’s a little pang of delight when I see a T72 or T80 brew up, or a BMP or BTR obliterated.
This guy makes a very important point that those videos are basically Ukrainian snuff propaganda. I'm 100% behind Ukraine, but it's useful to stop and think about what you're watching.
https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1501602571923898373
@thols2 some people simply like the war porn. Often people with stuff lacking in their own lives.
You know that video of the helicopter getting shot down? Made me desperately sad to think of the terror of their last few seconds - doesn't matter which side, it's all so bloody unecessary. 🙁
Made me desperately sad to think of the terror of their last few seconds
Yup. Reality is a lot of those on the Russian side are as much a victim of Putin as the Ukranians.
If Putin or some of those neonazi leaders of the wagner group were reported as having fallen down some stairs multiple times I would raise a beer or two but even then I would give viewing the photos/videos a miss and I dont think it would be so much delight as hope.
I see China is following Russia's lead with the absolute BS claim of America developing chemical weapons etc in Ukraine. They are effectively green lighting a false flag operation if Russia goes that way. Utter *****.
China not even bothering to hide it's true colours here.
I hope the world also begins to truly regard China as the threat it currently is and is to become.
it’s all so bloody unecessary.
Which is the great sadness, the Ukrainians would probably have given up Crimea and the bugs of D and L they don't control just to stop the killing eventually. Now it's an existential fight and so many will die on both sides for one man's vanity
When people first started comparing Putin to Hitler I'm sure many of us might have raised an eyebrow, typical internet hyperbole.
Now it seems the comparison is apt and completely justified.
I can't help but think the 21dt century is make or break for mankind.
Poops, China will always do what's best for their long term interests and I would suggest that encompasses lying and dissembling.
Aeons ago I posted that their focus is always on the long term; short term tactical stuff is of limited interest to them.
Their objective, in my view, is to neutralise Russia and, possibly, relegate them to vassal state - support the econony but at a massive cost and make Russia almost totally dependant on China; drain it of natural resources inc rare earth metals, fossil fuels, minerals, precious metals.
You name it, China want it.
Xi is intent on global domination; doesn't have to be in his lifetime - the long game.
Look at the the tech sector - China is world leading in so many areas.
Will post more later.
This is really worth reading; Boris Yeltsin’s foreign minister’s take on Russia now, and the mistakes made dealing with it in the past, and how to deal with it in the future.
https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/russias-ex-foreign-minister-on-his-totalitarian-country/
Aeons ago I posted that their focus is always on the long term; short term tactical stuff is of limited interest to them.
Their objective, in my view, is to neutralise Russia and, possibly, relegate them to vassal state – support the econony but at a massive cost and make Russia almost totally dependant on China; drain it of natural resources inc rare earth metals, fossil fuels, minerals, precious metals.
You name it, China want it.
No, China will not neutralise Russia because that's not in their interest and will only weaken China. China wants to dominate SE Asia/Asia and pacific (Australia).
China wants to dominate
SE Asia/Asia and pacific (Australia)the entire planet.
FTFY. Centuries ago, China was a world power. It was ahead in technology and military power. The Chinese leaders considered Europe to be inferior. China then turned inwards and Europe surged ahead in science and technology leading to European countries dominating the globe. China was powerless in the face of European and American economic and military power. China has a very deep sense of grievance about this. They were treated terribly, but it goes much deeper than that. The Chinese view is that China is rightfully the dominant power in the world and that the U.S. and Europe have denied it what is due. Their ambitions are not limited to Asia, they intend to dominate the globe.
China wants to dominate
SE Asia/Asia and pacific (Australia)the entire planet.
I don't disagree ...
They do have that in mind.
Had a series of emails this morning at work saying that "there is a risk that Russia will soon be disconnecting the internet" - asking for people to prepare for this to happen imminently.
For context, we are a company with an annual revenue of about $3bn and about 50,000 employees, so we have clearly received some very specific intelligence, potentially from the hospitals/institutions that we are working with. We run medical research trials, so suddenly halting activities is not trivial.
Might be nothing, obviously
That's astonishing!
If they take themselves out of the loop how does that affect things in europe/UK/US ?. I was under the impression that although data center servers are everywhere, the majority are based in the US.
If anything, it sounds like they're trying to hide their activities form their own people.
Poopscoop
Full Member
When people first started comparing Putin to Hitler I’m sure many of us might have raised an eyebrow, typical internet hyperbole.Now it seems the comparison is apt and completely justified.
I can’t help but think the 21dt century is make or break for mankind.
Putin is Putin, there's absolutely no need for such comparisons.
Yeah - I remember a few years ago reading a headline that Russia was building it's own "internal" internet (intranet?) - it's clearly a way of further controlling what information gets through to the population
I think this thread really sums up the thinking behind disasters like Ukraine now and Iraq in 2003. And also why NATO getting actively involved (humanitarian intervention, for example) should not happen just because we feel it is imperative to do something.
https://twitter.com/MMazarr/status/1501688610575237124
https://twitter.com/MMazarr/status/1501688613649670145
... sounds positively North Korean.
[img] 
[/img]
Movement of the lines has slowed considerably to almost a standstill over the last 4/5 days.
Hopefully Ukrainian lines are holding and Russia is really struggling as much as suggested. Longer this goes like this, think you kinda have to think they really are struggling. Dunno what that ultimately means though? Far too early to get too confident no doubt
Reports I read yesterday were that logistics and supplies were now catching up and things were going to get really ugly. I sincerely hope they're wrong.
I'm wondering if we are going to see some of the undersea cables that support much of the 'net around the world mysteriously getting severed.
The Russians are known to have been experimenting with this.
They could also simply tweak one of their satellites to plough into another one in orbit not just taking that one out but potentially starting a cascade effect.
It does have that feeling that yesterday's shelling of a children's hospital could've a significant event. Either:
Putin did it deliberately thus it's a War Crime.
Or it shows just how inaccurate the Russian weapons are.
I'm going with the first option and that he did so by telling the troops it was a military target and that the news reports coming out (if they can see them) are false Western propaganda. Either way though it does ratchet up the tensions.
If it goes to - 20c next week as forcast then the Russians may cease to become an effective fighting force
You need proper cold weather gear, rations, and sleep to function. If they have been idling their trucks to keep the cab warm then alot will be out of fuel by now
Also the mud will freeze so maybe they can move on unmade roads and not get bogged down.
as long as they're not on unmade roads when the thaw comes, otherwise they'll be stranded wherever they got to.
I’m wondering if we are going to see some of the undersea cables that support much of the ‘net around the world mysteriously getting severed.
Sure I read an article a few years ago about them trying to develop small nuclear powered drone submarines and cutting Internet cables was thought to be one of their main intentions. Basically they could be launched and lie at the bottom of the sea permanently until needed. No idea how successful they were, or if there was any truth in it at all but it would be a very powerful asset in a third world war
Top trolling by Lithuania, renaming the street the Russian embassy is on to Ukrainian Heroes St.
Yeah – I remember a few years ago reading a headline that Russia was building it’s own “internal” internet (intranet?) – it’s clearly a way of further controlling what information gets through to the population
There was an experiment a few years back where they disconnected the internet from the rest of the world. I can't remember if it's a firewall type effort or a complete disconnection but yeah, it's a thing.
Putin did it deliberately thus it’s a War Crime.
I’m going with the first option and that he did so by telling the troops it was a military target
You do realise Putin isn't giving targeting instructions to soldiers on the ground don't you?
.weong thread
Movement of the lines has slowed considerably to almost a standstill over the last 4/5 days.
It pretty much hasn't change significantly since 2nd March. I'll bet that wasn't the invasion, sorry "Special Operation" they had in mind. I wonder what Putin's being told? Also, hearing information that Russian conscripts weren't told about the whole "invading another country" thing. Which is revelatory about the state of the Russian military leadership .
In 10 or 20 years what lessons will we – humanity – have learned?
I think it's worth remembering that it's not "humanity" doing this, it's Putin. Sure, people are being manipulated but it's him doing the manipulation. Not just him, of course...
Does anyone else find it difficult to process the hyprocrisy and double standards here? It's laudable the international response to Russia's invasion, but what about Saudi? Saudi bomb the shit out of defenseless Yemem, blowing up hosptails, murdering civilians and destroying an already poverty-stricken country. Instead of sanctions, we prostitue out our military to tell them how to use the weapons we've sold them which they have no clue how to use. If only such international responses were standard for all invasions and acts of aggression, we'd have to endure them a lot less frequently.
Abramovic, Deripaska, Sechin and 4 others sanctioned by UK.
but what about Saudi?
For a full explanation of why the Saudi's are allowed to do what they like, with no sanction, watch Bitter Lake by Adam Curtis
To summarise: During the OPEC crisis in the 70's, the Saudi's agreed to break with the cartel and keep the taps turned on no matter what. In return they get to do absolutely anything they want
Probably even more so now, after the events of the last few weeks