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if it's been planned and he has some support in the Kremlin (suggestion from the BBC) you'd think they'd be an assassination attempt due.
The timeline is confusing - there is a video of one of those commanders delivering a pro-Putin message a few hours earlier, and another, presumably afterwards, showing Prigozhin with some facial wounds. There is also footage of people fleeing some kind of explosion near the same army HQ in Rostov, seemingly after the video you mention.
Prigozhin's whereabouts are not certain right now, for whatever reason.
if it’s been planned and he has some support in the Kremlin (suggestion from the BBC) you’d think they’d be an assassination attempt due.
Putin is notoriously (and rightly) paranoid about this possibility, I doubt there would be the opportunity, and it's quite likely he is no longer in Moscow.
Transcript of the discussion/negotiation between Prigozhin, Deputy Defense Minister Yunus-Bek Yevkurov, and Deputy Chief of Staff Vladimir Alexeyev at the Southern Military District’s headquarters in Rostov-on-Don
Prigozhin: They fired at us, and we shot them down.
Yevkurov: You shot them down?
Prigozhin: Shot them down. The third one already. And we’ll shoot them all down, if you keep sending them. Because you’re hitting innocent civilians. You’re destroying civilians — you just blew up a bus with people, and you have no conscience about it.
Yevkurov: First of all, this is the first I’m hearing about this. And let’s not generalize.
Alexeyev: I came to discuss… [unintelligible]
Prigozhin (to Yevkurov): I’m addressing you formally — why are you addressing me informally again?
Yevkurov: I didn’t address you informally.
Prigozhin: Huh?
Yevkurov: I didn’t call you [the formal “you”] “Ty,” I was just saying: let’s not generalize. If you want to be formal.
Prigozhin: Yes, I’m speaking respectfully to you.
Yevkurov: If you say… [unintelligible] But let’s listen, we still need to think — what should we do? [unintelligible]
Prigozhin: Once again: We came here. We want to get the Chief of the General Staff [Valery Gerasimov] and [Defense Ministry Sergey] Shoigu.
Yevkurov: The Chief of the General Staff isn’t [unintelligible].
Alexeyev: (laughs) Take them!
Prigozhin: We’ll remain here until we have them, we’ll blockade the city of Rostov and go to Moscow.
Yevkurov: Then I ask you to withdraw your guys from here… [unintelligible]
Prigozhin: No. Under no circumstances. The guys are staying here.
Yevkurov: No. Well, you’re coming from the perspective…
Prigozhin: We’re not preventing you from commanding your troops.
Yevkurov: You shouldn’t prevent us, of course, [unintelligible], people are dying out there, just like all the others.
Prigozhin: The reason guys are dying is that you’re throwing them into the meat grinder.
Yevkurov: (distracted by his phone ringing)[unintelligible] this question.
Prigozhin: This question isn’t rhetorical. People are dying because you’re throwing them into the meat grinder. Without ammunition, without any thoughts, without any plans.
Yevkurov: (answering phone) Hello?
Prigozhin: You’re just senile clowns.
Alexeyev: What upsets me most is that they’ll be celebrating in Kyiv for at least three days [unintelligible].
Prigozhin: Where?
Alexeyev: In Kyiv.
Prigozhin: It’s not a big deal. A celebration with champagne in Kyiv [happens] when you abandon Krasnyi Lyman, Izyum, and everything else. That’s when they celebrate for a week in Kyiv. But we don’t retreat. And that’s why we came here, to end the disgrace of the country we live in.
Yevkurov: If we’re talking in that kind of…
Prigozhin: That’s number one.
Yevkurov: You started speaking in that tone.
Prigozhin: Well, of course.
Yevkurov: Then what kind of negotiations can we have?
Alexeyev: You understand that not everybody, not everyone flees…
Prigozhin: Listen. One more time. One more time. If we were talking to you all in a normal tone, we wouldn’t have arrived here in tanks. Do you get it?
Man outside of frame: And we wouldn’t have been met with helicopter fire.
Yevkurov: You believe everything you’re doing right now is right. Is that right?
Prigozhin: Absolutely right. We’re saving Russia.
Whatcver this is, and however it ends, let's hope it's over quickly - the last thing we need is a full-dress civil war in Russia.
I could cope with 24 hours of Wagner and Kadyrov's lot turning each other into paste, though.
Rats fleeing
https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1672523999425994752?t=kjtAxwI4NMJythZV5IdGMA&s=19
Edit:
https://twitter.com/Jackoboyse/status/1672566251212660737?t=9kvdOIU7RwP_3x0nq6FIHw&s=19
Prigozhin’s mob have apparently mined the roads from Rostov to Taganrog, one of the primary supply lines of Russian forces to Ukraine. No need for Ukraine to blow up supply dumps if they’re not being dumped in the first place! 😃
Looks like Wagner are heading for Moscow. I suppose the key question is, does Putin havw enough troops there to stop them, or do they need to start pulling resources from the Ukraine front line to preserve his regime?
Interesting to see what the Chechens will/can do. Most reports have them with approx 5,000 soldiers in the region, a lot of whom are quite lightly armed. Against 25k battle hardened mercenaries with tanks..
In other news, Wagner have apparently reached Yelets which is 120k North of Voronezh and 400k from Moscow..
Looks like Wagner are heading for Moscow. I suppose the key question is, does Putin havw enough troops there to stop them, or do they need to start pulling resources from the Ukraine front line to preserve his regime?
Too late for that if Wagner has a 500 mile head start.
I could cope with 24 hours of Wagner and Kadyrov’s lot turning each other into paste, though.
Tens of thousands of father's, sons, brothers, uncles, cousins, friends dying in a bloodbath for the egos of a couple of oligarchs come warlords.
None of this is anything we should be celebrating even if it is a bloody means to peacefull ends.
Aren't a lot of Chechens fighting for Ukraine too?
So if Putin's private plane has landed in St Petersburg which would appear to be where Putin's private yacht was last seen too; It could be he's trying to do a runner whilst he still can.
Question becomes; which country with a coast line is he likely to be welcomed?
It won't be a peaceful end. The guy is a psycho.
I remember listening to a podcast ages ago when the war started and people were talking of regime change. An expert in the field said even if it did happen it would probably make things worse as there were no moderates in the wings likely to get power only even more nutters, more crazy and power hungry even than Putin - plus they haven't commanded the international stage for 2 decades so have zero credibility to run a country or connections with foreign powers - he said it would be a disaster for Russia and for the rest of the world.
I can't see this being a good outcome, even if Ukraine has a temporary respite. I bet the CIA are weighing up who to back and there is an outside chance they may prop up Putin to keep the status quo with a load more positive leverage on their side.
Caher Full Member
Aren’t a lot of Chechens fighting for Ukraine too?
Yup. Kadyrov was effectively put into power by Putin and imposed on the Chechens. Lots don’t like/support him and some of them are indeed fighting with the Ukrainians. No idea how many though
I bet the CIA are weighing up who to back and there is an outside chance they may prop up Putin to keep the status quo with a load more positive leverage on their side.
The CIA are not involved in this. They have zero ability to influence events in Russia.
scruff9252
Free Member
So if Putin’s private plane has landed in St Petersburg which would appear to be where Putin’s private yacht was last seen too; It could be he’s trying to do a runner whilst he still can.
It would need an escort and/or stay in friendly waters for the entire trip. That’s going to severally limit him, probably to no further than a wee afternoon cruise
None of this is anything we should be celebrating even if it is a bloody means to peacefull ends.
No celebration here. Just the grim necessity that Russian and Russian-allied forces need to be weakened to the point that helps them decide that Ukraine isn't worth it/feasible and retire to lick their wounds, thus saving many more lives, civilian and military (on both sides). These butchers doing it to each other at least spares Ukrainian soldiers and civilians.
Prigozhin has already said that he intends to take Wagner back to the frontline, and is probably no better than Putin really in terms of brutality. This coup gives Russia the chance to pull back from Ukraine, and anything that helps them decide in favour of that is welcome.
I wonder how tempted China is right now to reclaim Vladivostok ?
I wonder how tempted China is right now to reclaim Vladivostok ?
Was thinking that. Opportunity knocks and all that.
So a day to drive to Moscow, Wagner don't seem to have slept, probably been on those amphetamines too, theyre gonna have to crash at some point, this all seems pretty well planned by prigohrzin, must know there's a risk of being attacked from the air ( he does have pantsir aa launchers with him)
Days since Putin had to take big, skittery shite: 0.
I've never been in the army but couldn't Putin make this go away by blowing up a bridge on the motorway...with them on it?
So much for blockaded routes!
re Putin’s jet, nothing to say he’s on board. Charter a load of flights all around the same time and jump on one of them.
@zippykona Doesn’t that need very precise timing and a hope that Wagner don’t have any combat engineers?
Back to Ukraine now they have to push hard really hard. If they don't they know more than they are letting on.
War and death are awful but Wagner vrs the tic tok army is a huge win for Ukraine.
I did think this morning I that China might send in "peace keepers" onto the border. It's all bets are off now.
The Chinese government won't want a super right wing Russia as they would be to bonkers to influence.
It would need an escort and/or stay in friendly waters for the entire trip. That’s going to severally limit him, probably to no further than a wee afternoon cruise
First stop Kaliningrad? Surrounded by NATO countries, nice and safe.
Plus the 100 or so signatories of the ICC. Nice to see Putin living in Iran.
Turned on the news to hear there was an armed convoy heading along the M4! Took a minute to figure out it wasn't that M4...
Its quite amusing if you put Moscow and directions from Rostov-on-Don into google maps.....it shows the M4 is very very closed and suggests an alternative route (that may have tolls).....
Mike Martin on Twitter is saying that Russian military units are switching over to side with the Wagner group. Has anyone seen any actual evidence of this?
https://twitter.com/ThreshedThought/status/1672623664389292036?t=CPIED6fv-vLQqCN0AH9CRQ&s=19
Wagner seemed to walk into Rostov with no opposition. I suspect a lot are just going " I'm not getting involved" and looking the other way rather than actually switching but who knows? So much disinformation. Certainly seems Moscow is expecting fighting in Moscow
Turned on the news to hear there was an armed convoy heading along the M4! Took a minute to figure out it wasn’t that M4…
There were a lot of army landrovers heading north up the M1 near Leicester this morning. Makes you think
I don't think anyone, including Putin, Wagner, the CIA, etc. really know what's happening. All that anyone will have is scattered pieces of the puzzle, but 30 minutes later, things have changed. My money is on Putin beating Wagner, but whoever wins, Russia will be severely weakened by this.
How much are typical Russian Army personnel looking forward to dying in Ukraine? Not much I'd say, they probably have some idea of what is happening there, so the next best option is just to let Wagner pass with no resistance.
Certainly seems Moscow is expecting fighting in Moscow
Apart from some Chechens heading to Rostov, arriving about now...
Prigozhin
So, i guess the question needs to be:
What do we know about this guy, then?
Prigozhin
So, i guess the question needs to be:
What do we know about this guy, then?
A nasty piece of work. Ultra russian nationalist, thinks Putin is too soft
there is a profile piece in the Guardian that I haven't read