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ElShalimo
Free MemberAnyone over 45 grew up in the UK on a diet of war Comics, war films, stories of Empire and general war porn/glorification
Yep, but also with ww2 veterans still around in some numbers as neighbours, grandparents etc, parents who grew up in or immediately after the war, so there were all those real world experiences too. I drank up the warlord comics and commando and suchlike but it was always tempered with knowing I should have a whole lot more family members... So the decline of the war porn is also a bit balanced by the loss of the real understanding, at least on that scale. And to be fair, it wasn't all like that, Charley's War and so many others told truer versions.
When I was young, the older guys at work were WW2 and Korean War veterans. They never talked about the war except to say it was a terrible experience. The younger people who didn't experience it were the gung-ho types who thought it was all a jolly jape.
https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1656278050344935424?t=KvaWU6t4riBEMA_ItfnVAQ&s=19
Notable (assuming its correct) for where the Mobilised are from.
In the meantime lots of reports that the UA have broken through the Russian flanks around Bakhmut, pushing them back by 2-3km in some cases. Reports also that the RA and Wagner are pulling back in Bakhmut (though too early to say if these are credible). Of course if the UA are surging through the suburbs, Prigozhin would be concerned about getting kettled.
Bottom line I guess is you can have all the weapons and multiple lines of defence that you want, but if the soldiers don’t want to be there and will leg it at the first sign of trouble, it’s all worthless..
Hard to know what to make of progorzhins rants
https://twitter.com/WhereisRussia/status/1656317186346975232?t=z1zeK9bPrAl2HxDe4oTVqg&s=19
Double bluff to trick Ukraine or just part of his endless PR campaign to big himself up
Definitely get the opinion he'd rather be looking after his gold mines in Africa than getting all his forces slaughtered in a pointless war he's realised Putin doesn't have the will to see through properly with full mobilisation & a way to beat sanctions & rearm
A Russian collapse around Bakhmut world be a huge blow to russian morale, progorzhin does seem to be getting his excuses in early of that happens
My mum has a little tale of calling me in for dinner when I was little. I shouted back “just a minute I’ve got to kill these Germans”.
Yeah, familiar (on my father's side). Being half-German throws a lot of perspective on our national hobby of celebrating War Christmas. I can't bear it when England and Germany play a game of football, the popular jingoism is nauseous.
When I was young, the older guys at work were WW2 and Korean War veterans. They never talked about the war except to say it was a terrible experience. The younger people who didn’t experience it were the gung-ho types who thought it was all a jolly jape.
Yep. My grandfather was sent to fight at the Somme in WW1. He was from a German family, his wife was German born and he was shooting at his own relatives. Had it been the other way round - i.e. my grandfather had been German born then the family would've been interned. My father was in the RAF between '52-55. He was taught radio by a guy (Polish, IIRC) who'd been attached to the liberation of Belsen. My dad's brothers were mostly sent to the Far East, one was captured in Singapore and survived captivity, another was an artilleryman attached to the Chindits who'd run away from home aged fifteen to join up.
Hard to know what to make of progorzhins rants
I'm not sure whether this is classic Russian psy-ops or a direct challenge to Putin. Prigozhin would seem to have plenty to gain.
Wonder if prigozhin is in bakhumut because it’s actually safer than him being in Russia right now….
As they are mercenaries, couldn’t ukr just pay them more to go home?
The only people who romanticise war are people who haven't seen it up close. It's a great example of 'ignorance is bliss'.
Some days I'd happily trade in my experiences for that ignorance.
Politicians, charities, civilians and senior military leadership have perverted the purpose of any acts of remembrance. I'm glad I no longer have to take part in the facade and can do it in my own way.
Wonder if prigozhin is in bakhumut because it’s actually safer than him being in Russia right now….
As military defeat becomes more likely, the future of the country and the elite grow more uncertain. Such a scenario might trigger a search for a Putin replacement without destabilising the country.
I can't see much noise about any popular movement within Russia for democracy, unfortunately.
Leopard 2’s spotted near Bhakmut.
Source?
Nothing confirmed. Russian sources yano, so take it with a baby fingers pinch of salt.
I have not served and am a pacifist by instinct
However I have looked after a lot of veterans who had seen unspeakable horrors. They were of the "stiff upper lip" generation but as they drew to the end of their lives the trauma came out. I can see some of the faces now decades later. I can see the tears streaming down their faces on remembrance day. I can only imagine what they went through and what soldiers today are going thru.
We're finding it's about a 10 year gestation period for CPTSD. when there's a spike it seems to cause a ripple effect in others close to the source.
Ukraine & Russia have got all that to come in significantly higher numbers than most nations have ever experienced in recent times.
There's something especially cruel about losing friends to suicide after ops.
Ukraine will most likely be dealing with these problems against a backdrop of rebuilding their nation.
The only people who romanticise war are people who haven’t seen it up close. It’s a great example of ‘ignorance is bliss’.
My first memory of learning what war "is" as someone thats never experienced it comes from a book about the First World War, in that book is a grainy black and white image of a shell crater with various body parts, one set of remains heavily decomposed and partially buried.
The book was definitely meant for someone older than I was (mid/early eighties publication sometime). But it was still a children's book.
It is, to this day the dominant mental image I have of the First World War.
DR and Quinch: FOAD on one of the guns. "Nuke your parents"
It is, to this day the dominant mental image I have of the First World War.
Very little has changed. People frantically masturbate over tech but the essence of war hasn't changed, it involves the delivery of ordinance; some pointy, some blunt many explosive onto and into human beings.
In this conflict Putin is the bad guy as are those Wagner thugs, but I feel for the soldiers of both sides, many have little choice to fight, the majority being pressed men. Even when this is over, there are no winners.
No doubt there are a few who get over excited by war, but I imagine most are just fascinated by the stories, the strategies and the tech. I know I am. In particular I'm interested in the tech because military stuff is often cutting edge and is the future tech of civvy street. Look at all the tech advances that came from WW2 military research.
Do I for a minute want it to carry on, absolutely not. And I'm very conscious of many of those on the front line, on both sides are just kids that have been forced to fight, or normal family blokes like me who have been forced to make the choice of trying to run with their family or fight. Its is bloody awful.
“Once the rockets are up
Who cares where they come down?
That’s not my department
Says Werner von Braun”
People frantically masturbate over tech
Some do, but IME very few, and they're proper Walters, and you can spot them . I think the difference [on this thread] is sometimes the niche information that can identify interesting things that may pass others by, For instance, very early in the war there were pictures of SU-34 carrying non smart weapons (iron munitions), to most it's a picture of a warplane with bombs on it, to others it's a clear indication that Russia is having huge logistics and supply issues, and are having to use particular aircraft well outside their normal tactical doctrines. Last night I was watching a news report of the fighting at Bakhmut, and one of the entrenched Ukrainian positions was using a water cooled Vickers machine gun circa WW1: again, to my wife, it's footage of a bloke with a gun, to me it was an indication that the Ukrainian army are desperately using everything they can get their hands on!!
Sometimes pointing those things out led to accusations of war-porn and so on, when to others; you can't fully understand what's going on until you understand the detail.
One thing I realised with the point I made above tho is that those of us who have never fought can never understand what those who fought went through. We can understand they are traumatised and in pain but never know what its really like
I think we need to be a little sensitive to this
having said that I have learned from stuff on this thread but perhaps give a wee thought to those living with the trauma of fighting
Let's hope for capability reasons as well as the quite righteous humanitarian reasons Ukraine doesn't fall.
A tinpot Russian state with lots of NATO kit is less than ideal.
Love that, got too busy with the GWOT and took our eye well and truly off the Matryoshka doll shaped ball.
Bearing in mind that Zelensky has just said that the counter-offensive won't be starting now, I'm guessing that it's going to be starting now?
The Russians are certainly being very jittery about the prospect
https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1656734924534333441?t=qIw-jhuwC5GY6sj0W6na8A&s=19
UK to send Storm Shadow ALCM range 250/560 km
Good.
Not quite long enough range to really strike inside Russia, but plenty good enough to cause mayhem on any Rusian strongholds within the Ukraianian border.
A lot of people saying the range is enough for Crimea
How are the Ukrainians going to be launching the storm shadow missiles?
It'll be interesting to see how they launch the SS missiles, would probably be more useful with some old Tornados we might have lying around!
Apparently they've been made compatible with Ukraine's Soviet-era jets , according to the BBC's report.
Does it make sense for the counter-offensive to start in Bakhmut? Surely that's where all the Russian and Wagner troops are concentrated right now?
How are the Ukrainians going to be launching the storm shadow missiles?
UK and Ukr have worked for 6 months to ensure the fit on the Ukr MIGs.
It would not surprise anyone if a Toyota pick up has also been involved, with some nice Sevastopol co-ordinates and a day out to the beach for the crew..
Surely that’s where all the Russian and Wagner troops are concentrated right now?
You mean all the tired, frightened men with worn out weaponry and a lack of fresh ammunition are corralled into a small area?
I do wonder if the Storm Shadow missile announcement has been very carefully timed to coincide with Russian offensives around Bahkmut culminating and Ukrainian gains in the area to cause maximum panic in Russian social media. the Ukranians really are masters of messing with the Russians heads
Storm shadow is more an air to surface missile, which sugests Ukraine has fighter jets that can deploy them.
It's also more a mid range missile which suggests it will be used tactically inside Ukraine to destroy Russian strong holds inside Ukraine borders. I Guess Crimea would potentially fall under that catagory.
It's gota be squeaky bum time for Putin seeng as his domestic hired mercenaries are kicking off against him too.
As said up thread Storm Shadow has been integrated with Ukraine jets, which is why deployment has been delayed for 6 months whilst this work was done.
Ukraine has agreed it will only be used within Ukraine territory, which includes Crimea. UK Gov't has been very careful to say all along that Crimea is Ukraine territory
I cannot believe it’s only taken 6 months to do the integration. From a systems perspective it must rank as one of the greatest military technological achievements in living memory. If you want some appreciation of what the integration involves check out what transfer alignment is and that’s just one aspect they have to sync, real-time, in a combat situation, between a Russian designed aircraft’s avionics they didn’t build, and have essentially had to reverse engineer, and a bleeding edge british weapons system. It’s utterly astonishing.
Presume Storm shadow is a cruise missile which means it just has to be released (which I don’t doubt is complex in itself), but once released in the general direction it’ll figure the rest out itself.
Storm Shadow wiki page has already been updated to include the M29 in the list of compatible aircraft…….
I suspect a lot of work has been going on in the background to retro-fit these kinds of weapons since Russia made war on Ukraine... it probably woke a few people up.
That's not to take away or belittle lives lost so far, it's utterly tragic but there's only one agressor here, and I think the international community as a whole won't allow Russia to take Ukraine, if not for altruistic reasons, for long term economic stability, it just won't be allowed to happen.
I think Russia maybe didn't consider this, and now they have a tired and unenthusiastic army potentially facing some of the best tactics and weapons that humans have invented so far... it's only going to end in the defeat of russia unless they withdraw.
mattyfezFull Member
I suspect a lot of work has been going on in the background to retro-fit these kinds of weapons since Russia made war on Ukraine…
My guess is that the design process for hanging NATO munitions on them started a long time ago, most likely when the former Warsaw Pact countries started to join NATO, possibly even before given the Mig-29s that the Luftwaffe inherited from the DDR... which were subsequently sold to Poland and now Ukraine.
At very least adapter rails to go between the ex-USSR hard points on the plane and NATO gear will have been around for 25+ years plus some electronic adaptations at a guess.
This Storm Shadow?
