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I just don’t think there’s that much difference between an old WW2 tank and an old WW2 bomber
I'm not comparing their regime to ours, but if we don't recognise that parades like Remembrance BoB day, Trooping the Colour are at least in part a celebration of how militarily muscular we are (in a similar way to other countries like Russia) then it does no harm to remind ourselves occasionally that that is their purpose. There may not be a parade of loads of tanks on the streets, but RAF flypasts of Typhoons etc are not so wildly dissimilar.
We don’t have a victory parade every year to show off our military strength
No, just a constant stream of 'last of the summer wine' and 'antiques roadshow' keeps the public believing in British past, with the score of Enigma variations or a rousing pomp and circumstance march by Elgar
ironically that single lonely t34 was reportedly built in kharkiv
You think it’s possible to compare Remembrance Day Parades with the Russian Victory Parade?
Yes, they're not the same, but they're both at their core commemoration/remembrance events.
we still have spitfire and Lancaster flypasts, but that’s completely different tradition to what the Russians perform.
No, the T34/Lancaster is the same.
Where they diverge is only that we don't send a Challenger 2 through Whitehall, although I could argue Boris might have wanted to but the logistics of getting one there might be a bit more difficult than Red Square.
I'm not even sure we're not the bad guys on this one, flying a Lancaster to NW Germany this summer to mark the 80th anniversary of the Dambusters somehow feels about as appropriate as flying one over Dresden, or a Ju-88 over London to remember the Blitz.
There was been discussion about the use of T34’s by Russia in Ukraine and Russia receiving 30 T34’s from Laos. Then we see a Victory Parade and only a single T34 is being paraded, which compared to previous years is somewhat different and deserves commenting upon.
True.
Although I'd suggest the symbolism of making the army parade up and down in bearskin hats is if anything intended to be even more a demonstration of power than the camo drab of Russia/N.Korea/elsewhere. Like animals that expend evolutionary capital on feathery displays or loud mating calls, there's no practical use for them. It's just a way of demonstrating that you're already so bad-ass you can grow a 4ft peacock tail / parade 10,000 soldiers on the mall like it's 1812 and it not affect your actual job as a bird / army.
Victory Day is massively significant for President Putin, he developed its annual format since 2008 as a projection of power. Previously it celebrated, say 50 years, but not annually
It's been a display of current power in numerous cities and countries and was given May 9th to differentiate it from May 8th (VE day). Former Soviet countries use 9th as well. VE day was formally announced to allow the time difference in Moscow to become the 9th
Normally world leaders would attend and even squads of western troops. That isn't happening this time
President Zelenskyy is/has swapping/swapped to 8th May from 9th
Wagner Vs Putin would be very messy!
Meanwhile what happens if lukashenko croaks it ? https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1655990501550456844?t=uDWt4Sfbzxll5i2RxGqJxg&s=19
Is it though? Feels like the same energy to me. Yes the Russians have a parade every year, just like say; Remembrance. I just think that when we have a RAF funded bunch of 80 year old aircraft that are specially rolled out for parades, y’know like an old tank, throwing stones at this particular Russian glasshouse seems a little ill-judged
In 1953 the Coronation flypast was 600+ aircraft
Saturday was planned as 68 aircraft, which isn't massively different to the 77 (years since VE/Victory) over Moscow today. In the event Saturday became the Red Arrows and some helicopters
Do other European countries celebrate / remember WW2 as much as the Russians and the UK do?
Is Russian identity any more firmly rooted in "The great patriotic war' than that of the British? It's also worth remembering that for every Briton that died in the war more than 50 Russians (or Soviet citizens) died and we were never occupied or succumbed to the full horrors of war commuted on the continent.
In fact British deaths made up less than one percent of the wars casualties. I wonder how many Brits would guess that figure if asked? To a certain extent we've all fallen for the mythology created around the war.
So I think the glass houses comparison is fair enough.
When wanger said they where leaving Ukraine due to no support I assumed it was to get into Sudan and make a right mess politically in Africa like Mari after the French where asked to leave.
Not so sure now looks like they are picking a fight with Putin, maybe Ukraine and the west have deliberately ground them into the ground to force the situation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/05/05/make-russia-s-wagner-group-a-pariah-in-africa/e697d280-eb03-11ed-869e-986dd5713bc8_story.html
To a certain extent we’ve all fallen for the mythology created around the war
Many people have forgotten that Russia started WW2 allied with Germany and on the side of Nazis
In fact British deaths made up less than one percent of the wars casualties.
Didn't realise there was a league table of casualties/suffering that defined how a society can act? Must have missed that one.
To a certain extent we’ve all fallen for the mythology created around the war.
It's the 80th anniversary of the Dams Raid next week - various TV channels already doing the full 617 history thing. And that's before you get to the whole "you can't possibly house asylum seekers on the hallowed ground of Scampton" bollocks in the press at the moment.
Far too much of UK history centres around the war and the whole mythology was magnified for Brexit and various other far-right flagshaggery.
Far too much of UK history centres around the war
Because it doesn't require much brain power. It's an easy (lazy) way to stoke up people.
Also means UK plc doesn't have to actually put any effort in to developing a more recent legacy to have any form of national pride in.
Just wheel out some war porn for the civvies. And let's be honest a great many lap it up, let's look at the frantic masturbating over this conflict in various corners of the internet.
Surely the lack of weaponry on display at the Victory Parade this year is because much of it is in Ukraine, some of it in tiny bits.
Wagner Vs Putin would be very messy!
What is going on here?
I thought pootin was bestest buddies with the Wagner folk, particularly Prigozhin who used to work for pootin directly?
Is this infighting now starting - rats scrapping in a box - or is it a feint?
🤷♂️
My take on it is the Lancaster serves as a reminder of how big a percentage of bomber command didnt come back
And the Russian parades are a display of. Military might, dressed up as a remembrance event but usually used to show the world how many tanks, spgs, missile launches, men atarms etc are in service
In fact British deaths made up less than one percent of the wars casualties. I wonder how many Brits would guess that figure if asked? To a certain extent we’ve all fallen for the mythology created around the war.
Standing on the shoulders of past glories....
Spoke to some 80 year old the other month whilst in Portugal. He was complaining about not being able to stay longer than 90 days in his apartment despite him owning it for the last twenty years. Gave him the analogy of being a member of a golf club then deciding not to pay your fees, yet expecting to play a round each Saturday. Blah blah blah.... All he did read moan about the state of the UK, yet was blind to the fact that he wasn't doing anything to combat it whilst escaping to Portugal for three months. Anyway. He was a prick.
His argument for being allowed to stay longer was that if it wasn't for Britain the whole of Europe would be speaking German. At eighty he was two years old when the war ended.
Last time I was in the UK I saw Spitfire Gin, Hurricane Brandy and Lancaster Port. When I pointed out that the UK seems a little more hung up on the second world war than most other countries I was shouted down not only by my old man, but also the landlord. You should be proud blah blah blah.... Bella Ciao!
Slava Ukraine
On another note.... I met a guy recently from Belgium. Troubled soul. Grew up in care. Obviously never felt at home anywhere. My GF disliked him as he never liked anyone in the eye nor said please or thank you.
He was walking to Gambia (from Belgium, met him north of Almería) after having an epiphany to help fight elephant poachers.
Prior to that he was in Ukraine. Foreign Legion. Messed up fella. Looking back he was probably suffering the after effects of being on the front.
Fed him, filled his water bottles and gave him some hash.
Poor geezer.
I do wonder how much of this is smoke and mirrors...fog of war, if you will.
Social media going crazy all the time about whatever... national news too busy talking about king charly and arresting environment protestors.
I think it's fair to point out the Britain only gave up its colonies because it had no choice, but he's right about Stalin and Putin.
https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1655941668091342848
There's quite a bit about Prigozhin and his on-off digs at the Kremlin here... https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/ukraine-conflict-updates Have a look at the 9th May specifically, but they've been making daily reports on this for some time
It's worth pointing out that following the car-bombing of Zakhar Prilepin on 6th May ISW reported, "Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin has reportedly fostered ties with ”A Just Russia” party leadership, though it is uncertain if the attack against Prilepin is related to Prigozhin"
Far too much of UK history centres around the war
Because like it or not; it's the founding myth of modern Britain.
Last time I was in the UK I saw Spitfire Gin, Hurricane Brandy and Lancaster Port.
There was a minor kerfuffle a few months ago when it was realised that the Tank Museum were selling a range of products ( liqueur and beer mostly) under the 131 label.
For those who don't know, "131" is their original Tiger tank, it's was Waffen SS captured intact with minor damage
Anyone over 45 grew up in the UK on a diet of war Comics, war films, stories of Empire and general war porn/glorification
They were conditioned by the popular culture that glorified war and the myth that plucky little UK beat those nasty Nazis almost single handedly.
The same flag-shaggers who voted Brexit were highly likely to have run around the school playground shouting "die Fritz die!" whilst making silly machine gun noises
Thank God younger generations don't share those views.
No one who speaks German can be an evil man.
My take on it is the Lancaster serves as a reminder of how big a percentage of bomber command didnt come back
Yeah, I believe that the chances of survival for Lancaster crews were lower than that of soldiers in the trenches in WW1.
Personally I preferred 'Eat lead, you sausage munching squareheads!'
Up there with 'Die, you slant eyed sons of saki swillers!'
Funny the things that stick in your mind.
Thank God younger generations don’t share those views.
Many of the men who fought WW2 were bought up on a diet of "the plucky Brits defeating the Fuzzy-wuzzies almost singlehandedly" and the same can be said of the men who fought WW1 who were bought up on a diet of "the plucky Brits defeating the Turks and Russians almost singlehandedly" and the same can be said for the men who fought in Crimea, who were bought up on diet of the "Plucky Brits defeating the French almost singlehandedly" and the men who fought at Waterloo....ad infinitum.
Personally I preferred ‘Eat lead, you sausage munching squareheads!’
My preferred reading was 2000AD so the motto of the Space Marines a la DR and Quinch "Chew Plutonium death you disgusting alien weirdos!"
My favourite bit was where Commando (possibly) jumped up just a a doodlebug was being launched and managed to push it off course.
No one who speaks German can be an evil man.
wieso sagst du das?
The same flag-shaggers who voted Brexit were highly likely to have run around the school playground shouting “die Fritz die!” whilst making silly machine gun noises
My mum has a little tale of calling me in for dinner when I was little. I shouted back "just a minute I've got to kill these Germans".
Mum was German!! Dad was English. They both lived (and served) through WWII. Later I learned a lot through their experiences.
@slowoldman it's from the Simpsons, as was @alpin post before mine.
Sideshow Bob: Bart Simpson? That spirited little scamp who twice foiled my evil schemes and sent me to this dank, urine soaked hellhole.
Male Parole Officer: Uh...We object to the term: "urine soaked hellhole," when you could have said: "pee pee soaked heckhole."
Sideshow Bob: Cheerfully withdrawn.
Blue-haired Lawyer: What about that tattoo on your chest? Doesn't it say "DIE BART DIE"?
Sideshow Bob: No that's German for "The, Bart the." *Audience laughs*
Female Parole Officer: No one who speaks German can be an evil man.
Male Parole Officer: Parole granted!
Ah.
Anyone over 45 grew up in the UK on a diet of war Comics, war films, stories of Empire and general war porn/glorification
They were conditioned by the popular culture that glorified war and the myth that plucky little UK beat those nasty Nazis almost single handedly.
The same flag-shaggers who voted Brexit were highly likely to have run around the school playground shouting “die Fritz die!” whilst making silly machine gun noises
Thank God younger generations don’t share those views.
You've pretty much described my childhood, but my views on many things have changed since I was 10 years old. To remain "conditioned" is a choice.
I think this is a very interesting topic, maybe for another time. I'm 40, born and grew up in Belfast, surrounded by the fallout of conflict, and the aftermath of the worst of it. I can't view the two parades as the same, but I can't explain why. I wanted to be a fighter pilot from as early as I can remember, right up until I walked away from the process at 18. Watching the BBMF always makes my hair stand on end, but is it because we here in Britain parade ourselves in the wars with airshows and fairs so we become drawn into it all? Or is it because I have a real invested love of aviation/planes/etc? I voted remain, I'm always for peace, I don't glorify war. I don't think I'm conditioned or let myself be conditioned.
I don't see an end to this war anytime soon.
Yeah, I believe that the chances of survival for Lancaster crews were lower than that of soldiers in the trenches in WW1.
58,000 casualties in Bomber Command (includes pre and post war losses)
353,000 German civilian casualties in Allied bombing raids.
We killed more civilians in Dresden than Ukranian military's loses in the current war, and we killed two and a half times that in Berlin, and that's just two cities. It's the shear scale of what we did that makes me a bit uneasy when it's in any way "celebrated".
This is what I don't get, WW1 and WW2 were on a brutal scale, but really this country needs to get a grip and accept that it should be possible to teach these things objectively. They happened, we won, but neither side can claim any absolute moral "good guy" status.
Surely the lack of weaponry on display at the Victory Parade this year is because much of it is in Ukraine, some of it in tiny bits.
I don't think anyone doubts the Ukranian farmers union has a larger reserve of soviet tanks than Putin.
Bradley’s used in combat for the first time.
It’s the shear scale of what we did that makes me a bit uneasy when it’s in any way “celebrated”
I don't think I've ever seen or read an account of the war that celebrates civilian death though.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen or read an account of the war that celebrates civilian death though.
Precisely, the Lancaster wasn't dropping it's bombs on the German frontlines, it was bombing cities.
I think this is a very interesting topic, maybe for another time.
It's certainly a topic for a different thread, the WWII memorial chat has derailed this one spectacularly.
It’s certainly a topic for a different thread, the WWII memorial chat has derailed this one spectacularly.
Yeah, can't let the warporn ****-fest be interrupted.
TINAS - imho it comes from our politics. Win/Lose, Good/Bad, Us/Them. There is no nuance. Our system breeds it.
I also spent my childhood running around playing soldiers. Joined the RAF, served for 12 years, but have matured and learned a lot.