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Posted by: breatheeasy

Zelensky might not have a choice.

Of course he has a choice.

He does and it's widely reported here and in the US that he's already knocked the agreement back. Whether that state of affairs can continue, who knows?

None of this has passed through Congress as far as I'm aware and there are certainly Republican politicians who wouldn't agree with their government, assuming it needs assent.

It doesn't take much imagination to see what Gabrielius Landsbergis, Former Foreign Affairs Minister of Lithuania sees. The full article is worth reading

I have always felt that China is looking for a way to emerge as the victor, and that is worryingly possible. If the US and Europe don't offer security to Ukraine, China might step into the gap, using its leverage on Russia. They could even offer a better deal than Trump's.

https://landsbergis.com/china-could-win-the-war-against-ukraine-without-firing-a-shot/


 
Posted : 16/02/2025 6:27 pm
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Ukraine will not succeed even with support from US and EU.  The line is drawn. 

 


 
Posted : 17/02/2025 12:31 am
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You know what? I think you’re right, ever since Russia deployed their strategic donkeys to the front line, western civilisation is done. Game over!


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 8:41 am
AD and welshfarmer reacted
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Given how transactional Trump is, and is asking Ukraine for mineral rights in exchange for support, I think all the countries that lent the US their support during the various middle eastern adventures ought to bill them for the cost of the military they sent with hefty additions for the international reputational damage it caused 


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 9:58 am
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Maybe raise revenue for Ukraine by taxing the US Pharma and Media giants who creatively pay less tax in the Eurozone.


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 10:02 am
 scud
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Listened to an interesting podcast recently about how this play out, the trouble is if you allow Russia to take a great swathe of Ukraine as an end to the conflict, then that may legitimise China in seeking to take Taiwan which they have been angling to do for a long time. Then how do you address North Korea who again would like to gain ground and have been supplying troops to Russia for Ukraine, and countries like India and Turkey who continued to ignore sanctions and have cheap Russian gas piped to them, the conflict is far bigger than just Ukraine/ Russia..


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 11:04 am
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It doesn't take much imagination to see what Gabrielius Landsbergis, Former Foreign Affairs Minister of Lithuania sees.

I thought this was an interesting article.  I'm not as pessimistic as he is about China, but why wouldn't Ukraine bring them in to the discussion?

If Ukraine is now in a situation where it needs to barter away revenues to rare earth minerals in exchange for military aid / support, then there's suddenly a strong incentive for them to hit up China and see if they've got a better offer than the USA.

This would obviously throw a big spanner in the works - Russia certainly wouldn't want Chinese weapons pointing at them from a new front, the EU wouldn't want it, and the USA would have to think carefully about the strategic influence they cede as they withdraw from Europe.

But it could be an interesting bargaining chip/brinksmanship option.


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 11:39 am
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Posted by: doris5000

then there's suddenly a strong incentive for them to hit up China and see if they've got a better offer than the USA.

 

Agree. I've been thinking similarly, esp. as Trump seems to be particularly paranoid about China. Seems like almost a no-brainer to me if the USA doesn't bring Ukraine to the table too.


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 11:50 am
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😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 12:05 pm
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😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 12:25 pm
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😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 12:26 pm
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😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 12:29 pm
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😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 2:43 pm
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😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 2:43 pm
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Really hope this is not a MAGA sell out of Ukraine, ending up as Belarus 2. Just cannot see how Trump would sell this to the liberal democratic world.

von ribbentrop pact for the 21st century.


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 8:07 pm
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Watching how this is playing out is unbelievable at times.

Trump and his team of other clueless idiots are damaging USA as much as their (former) allies. 

Europe won't be the only one's scrambling to find their own deterrents now USA have revealed themselves as untrustworthy and unreliable. 

Will this mean more countries acquiring nuclear capabilities to protect themselves? Will the USA ever be able to mend the damage Trump is doing to them?

 


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 8:27 pm
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The tide is slowly turning, in the Pokrovsk area, Ukraine is beginning to retake territory. Russia looks to have culminated.


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 10:11 pm
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Can't see any of the other NATO countries rushing to help out the US if China decides to go all in for Taiwan. This America First BS might misfire badly for that one.


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 11:16 pm
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Posted by: doris5000

the USA would have to think carefully about the strategic influence they cede as they withdraw from Europe.

This is the bit Trump doesn't get - there's a sound argument "not my continent, not my problem" that plays well to his home audience, but the rest of the world could move on a long way after 4 years of his shit.


 
Posted : 18/02/2025 11:25 pm
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So what’s the long game here:

russia and the us do a deal without Europe or Ukraine where occupied territory remains with Russia as per their demands.

Ukraine directed as to what it must accept, which is rejected by European countries and Ukraine.

US wash their hands and withdraw support as it’s a “European” and Nato issue. 

The US deal includes, as Russia demand, rolling back sanctions….which they start to do

katja kallas seems to understand Russians quite well…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u1cTRn5tBs8

 

 


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 6:12 am
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Things are a bit fractious here at the moment in Germany with our elections this weekend. The timing of the talks lands right across this and the migration topic is yet again front and centre after attacks in German cities. The Afd are capitalising on this and it's a recent issue in Villach, Austria after an attack there too. I do find the Geopolitics fascinating and perplexing at the same time.  

This, from our American asset:  Agent Orange this morning. 

https://bbc.com/news/articles/cd0n5e1pdz9o


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 7:04 am
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Can't see any of the other NATO countries rushing to help out the US if China decides to go all in for Taiwan. 

It's very unlikely USA would even give consideration to go to Taiwans defence now.

Trump looks to be burning the house down as quickly as he can. When the consequences of it hits home, they will come after him and his idiots with venom .. 

 


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 7:21 am
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The long game?  Trump doesn't have one.  He wants a nobel.peace prize for ending yhe wsr and has zero understanding of the situation.

 

Putin wants ukraine and particularly itz minerals undef Russian control and wants to get out of his disastrous war eoghout being defeated.   He needs something he can call a win.

 

Putin is playing trump like a violin


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 8:38 am
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It's very unlikely USA would even give consideration to go to Taiwans defence now.

The USAs love of / need for semiconductors might suggest otherwise..


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 9:11 am
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Trump’s USA is different… he’d be quite happy for China and Russia to take territory, resources and production from others… if the USA gets more as well.


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 9:16 am
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It's very unlikely USA would even give consideration to go to Taiwans defence now.

The USAs love of / need for semiconductors might suggest otherwise..

There's been a subtle change in US messaging in support of Taiwan as of a week ago, "we do not support Taiwan independence" has been removed from a US State Dept factsheet and China is not happy. 

Taiwan has thanked the US for "positive, Taiwan-friendly wordings".

It might be coincidental, but it might be deliberately timed to send the message that China shouldn't read too much into whatever transpires with Ukraine


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 9:52 am
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It was only briefly reported yesterday as Trump sucks the air out of everything else, but Zelensky was in Türkiye yesterday, and Erdogan has fully backed Ukrainian territorial integrity. Turkiye also controls access to the Black Sea, and is a NATO member. 


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 9:58 am
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(President Putin) needs something he can call a win.

He's already got that. Russia is exclusively at the top table with the most powerful nation in the world, with concessions and support for their membership of the (newly-formed) G8 from President Trump, "I’d love to have them back. I think it was a mistake to throw them out."

The Russian papers have been loving the events of this week and, as early as Monday, Steve Rosenberg reported on his Youtube Reading Russia, "One Russian newspaper today sums up how Moscow views events of the last few days: “Dumbfounded Europe, kneed by America just below the belt, is still struggling to get its breath back.” "

Putin is playing trump like a violin

He isn't the only one, both inside and outside the US


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 10:07 am
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The thing I find really troubling about this is how bizarrely credible Trump's position is.

Suppose he did make a deal with Putin, offer it to Ukraine, Ukraine declines, Trump throws toys out of the pram and withdraws all support for Ukraine and also lifts all sanctions on Russia. What would Europe realistically be able to do about it? Make friends with China? Trump could get in there first and tie China in to falling in line with Trump and Russia.

Sure, it might set the world towards devastation in a decade but it would look like a win for the USA in the near term.

Europe is actually in an incredibly weak position as I see it. It requires a strong strategy and tight unity, so major elections happening right now don't help.

 


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 1:32 pm
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There was the suggestion in Trump’s last term that he’d been compromised by the Russians. He had that (highly unusual) one on one meeting with Putin, which, by some accounts, he was highly flustered about for quite some time when he came out.


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 1:38 pm
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A friend of mine has this theory that it's all about China: Trump doesn't care about Ukraine he just wants to get on Russia's good side so they'll gang up with him against China.

 


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 4:14 pm
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Posted by: Kramer

There was the suggestion in Trump’s last term that he’d been compromised by the Russians.

Whilst in some ways I think it makes sense it does have one real flaw.

The maga lot have demonstrated that they couldnt care less about anything he does and he can now grift as much cash as he needs. So what could they have on him which would compromise him?


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 4:16 pm
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The E Jean Carroll case didn't make much of an impact. Unless the Russians have some "woke" or "trans rights" stuff on him can't see what they're likely to have that'll make much difference. 


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 4:32 pm
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Posted by: dissonance

Posted by: Kramer

There was the suggestion in Trump’s last term that he’d been compromised by the Russians.

Whilst in some ways I think it makes sense it does have one real flaw.

The maga lot have demonstrated that they couldnt care less about anything he does and he can now grift as much cash as he needs. So what could they have on him which would compromise him?

The pee tapes?


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 4:38 pm
 mert
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Putin is playing trump like a violin

Violins are complicated to play and can produce a tune.

Trump is more like a kazoo, or a whoopee cushion.


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 4:41 pm
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The tide is slowly turning, in the Pokrovsk area, Ukraine is beginning to retake territory. Russia looks to have culminated.

The West's propaganda has been saying this for years "Ukraine gains ground in [insert village name here] ***cough* in other news Russia made huge advances on the other 95% of the front"  or "Ukaine inflicts heavy losses on Russian forces *cough **** as they retreat out of [town name]"  When exactly is that spring offensive due again?

The last time there was a delay in getting US weapons to Ukraine, Russia made big advances.  If the same happens again, then the same will happen again.  

At this point Russia isn't going to lose*.  The options for Ukraine are either take a shitty American deal, or fight and lose anyway but with more dead Ukrainians.  History is littered with heroes who would tell others to fight on to the death because it's the right thing to do, but: 

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest

To children ardent for some desperate glory,

The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est

-Wilfred Owen

*unless something drastic happens like large numbers of European boots on the ground or China stepping in which IMO seems unlikely, there's nothing in it for them.   


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 5:09 pm
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yeah - Russias doing so well it using DONKEYS on the front line, FFS ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 5:17 pm
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yeah - Russias doing so well it using DONKEYS on the front line, FFS ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We're loosing, hey look a squirrel  donkey

We sit here and watch an FPV drone piloted into a Russian Tanks weak spot, then scroll past the news of Russia launching 200 drones to the bit where Ukraine shoots 50 of them down.

I get it, I'd dearly love Ukraine to come out of this on top.  

We might not have state propaganda like Russia, but our capitalist news outlets know what people want to hear, and it's that we are winning.

Pokrovsk was mentioned, does the map objectively look like Ukraine has the long term momentum in this war, especially if it no longer had US military support?

So either:

A) Russia is doing better than we would all like to admit and we're clutching at straws for good news.

B) Russia is beating the combined military assistance of the West with it's Strategic Donkey Reserves*

*my new band name


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 5:32 pm
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Looks like Zelenskyy has got to Trump with the 'disinformation bubble' comment. Trump is fuming about it on his platform, so the news tells me. Feels like it could be a thing that precipitates a failure of a deal, or push the US toward a deal too unpalatable for Europe to accept.

I still don't get why Trump and crew don't understand that the way they are implementing 'America First', might well mean they lose strategic influence in Europe. There's such a dissonance at play around them trying to dictate terms of peace in Europe, while simultaneously saying they want to pull away. They are so focussed on this warped perception of what Europe owes them, when they haven't grasped what they have gained from decades of strategic influence. It feels like they will ultimately lose out from pulling away from Europe...


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 5:38 pm
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With Trumps comments/behaviour I am really curious as to what Putin has over Trump.


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 5:50 pm
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Plus that map does not include the invasion of Russia , or the area currently being held. Or the fact that Russia is fast running out of servicable front line vehicles. Yes , they still have hundreds , but these are from the 60's and have been sat outside in a field for 40 years . They probably havent been started or moved this millenium. I somehow doubt they were put away with the bores flooded with engine oil on the off chance they might be needed in the distant future . Bet they could cobble together 1 from 10 by canabalising various bits of engine and driveline. However , working on old, frozen, rusty vehicles is very labour intensive, slow and time consuming. Every single bolt will probably need a blowtorch and a 1400Ft/lb Millwalkee impact wrench which probably dont even exist in Russia


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 5:54 pm
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Pokrovsk was mentioned, does the map objectively look like Ukraine has the long term momentum in this war, especially if it no longer had US military support?

No, but also that's two snapshots in time. Russia has advanced further, and been pushed back. But there's no doubt that ultimately Russia has shut the area down, and damaged Ukraine's ability as regard fuel, steel and transport. Russia slowly breaking Ukraine down under force isn't really disputed. The cost and means of doing so doesn't look sustainable forever. So, it all depends on what you mean by "long term". Russia can't be beaten at speed by Ukraine, only held back, or slowed down, or weakened by attrition. And only if supported by allies. This is true for many other countries as well. Russia can only be held back by the solidarity of other states.


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 6:00 pm
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Plus that map does not include the invasion of Russia , or the area currently being held.

That bit in the north that you have to squint a bit to see?

This is exactly what I mean, we're so blinkered by the tidbits of good news that we're blinkered to the bigger picture. 


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 6:07 pm
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And only if supported by allies.

And that's the key thing, it effectively no longer has that.

The US isn't going to keep supplying weapons.

Europe was never going to commit troops to Ukraine. 

 

 


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 6:10 pm
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Wow - so Russia move forward in a small section of the 1000km frontline by 40k IN A WHOLE YEAR - and this is your idea of winning ?? Pokrovsk was mentioned as it has been the main thrust of the Russian effort - they’ve spent a year, not taken it and lost countless lives and equipment. And now Russia is beginning to loose territory in the Pokrovsk campaign.

The only way Putin wins this is by Trump handing it to him on a plate.

Talking of the mandarin Mussolini- he’s just said in the White House that Ukraine started this war. Words fail me.


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 6:22 pm
roger_mellie, AD, kelvin and 1 people reacted
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"This is exactly what I mean, we're so blinkered by the tidbits of good news that we're blinkered to the bigger picture. "

 

Speaking of being blinkered by things I want to see. Just took a mooch around a couple of usually pro Trump (but not MAGA level pro Trump) social media sites and it's way more critical of Trumps foreign policy than a few days ago.


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 6:32 pm
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With Trumps comments/behaviour I am really curious as to what Putin has over Trump.

100% agree

Almost sounds like those peepee tapes were mentioned in the last putin /Trump chat

Trump was always going to shaft Ukraine, it's just shocking to see how he's doing it so blatantly exactly as putin wants


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 6:32 pm
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And that's the key thing, it effectively no longer has that.

Well, if you turn out to be correct, which country is next? None in the region can hold Russian military force at bay alone 

 

 


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 7:07 pm
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 I am really curious as to what Putin has over Trump.

Isn't it to do with this?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/05/donald-trump-rare-earths-ukraine-us-trade-deal-aid-russia

Is not a case that Zelensky wouldn't do a deal with Trump but Putin is prepared to?

Although tbh I can't understand why Zelensky would not be prepared to do a deal. Perhaps Trump's latest outburst is designed to force Zelensky into agreeing into handing over Ukraine's mineral wealth to the United States?

 


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 8:01 pm
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Trump was always going to shaft Ukraine, it's just shocking to see how he's doing it so blatantly exactly as putin wants.

TBH is anyone actually surprised,don’t forget the whole episode in Helsinki with him and deciding that he believed Putin rather than his own Director of national intelligence.

Dan Coats, Trump's director of national intelligence, promptly made clear he did not share the president's view. "We have been clear in our assessments of Russian meddling in the 2016 election and their ongoing, pervasive efforts to undermine our democracy, and we will continue to provide unvarnished and objective intelligence in support of our national security," he said in a statement.

And he also recently mentioned they should be back in the G8.

 


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 8:09 pm
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Sadly, if something is stupid but it works, it’s not stupid. The Russkies might be using donkeys but they are still attacking and taking Ukrainian lives. 

Unlike some of the Chicken Little types who claim the sky is falling every time the UKR gets some new kit, I think we (Europe) should be doing much more. Does that mean (more obvious) boots on the ground? I don’t know, but the Orange Shitgibbon getting Nobel Prize is not the best solution for anyone except him and Putin. 


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 8:24 pm
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This is exactly what I mean, we're so blinkered by the tidbits of good news that we're blinkered to the bigger picture.

TLDR, Ukraine has retaken major cities hundreds of miles apart. Russia is currently struggling to take small towns

Bigger picture. The (self-proclaimed) second best army in the world and undisputed second largest arms seller (and therefore second largest manufacturer of arms in the world) took around 10k sq.miles (7%) of Ukraine between 2014 and February 2022, aided by western indecision and inaction.

In February 2022 Russian forces were in the suburbs of the northern cities of Kyiv and Kharkiv, about 250 straight-line miles apart.

By November 2022 Russian forces had completely retreated from the north of Ukraine and had also lost the southern city of Kherson, about 300 miles south of Kyiv. Kharkiv is in range of Russian artillery firing from Russia; that close and Russia couldn't hold it.

Russia currently holds around 20% of Ukraine and has only taken around 1700sq.miles during the whole of 2023 and 2024. Their advance in '23/24 is equivalent to Cornwall and North Devon (not the whole of Devon) and about as rural.

They've used 11000 North Korean soldiers and weapons from both NK and Iran. NK delivered an estimated 1.57mn artillery rounds alone in 2023 https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/01/19/mapping-north-koreas-discreet-artillery-ammo-route-to-russia/

How many soldiers have the west supplied to Ukraine?

Europe was never going to commit troops to Ukraine.

I could go on, the bigger picture is much bigger than that

(sources: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60506682 & https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20241231-russian-advances-in-ukraine-grew-seven-fold-in-2024-data-shows & https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/01/19/mapping-north-koreas-discreet-artillery-ammo-route-to-russia/ )


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 8:47 pm
roger_mellie reacted
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The whole proposed mineral rights transaction is pretty bizarre. Rare Earth Elements are mostly concentrated in the Donbas, I see from a few sketchy Soviet-era maps. So it would probably involve Russia conceding ground to the Ukraine/US for them to get access.

The other thing is that nobody knows the true amount of REEs in the ground and whether they can be extracted - the ores are notoriously tricky to process (and China has the most advanced know-how). There’s a reasonable chance that there’s not much value in the transaction (for Trump).


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 8:48 pm
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Looks like Zelenskyy has guven up on Trump.  He is still trying to work with more sensible Americans. 

Trumps stupid comments have bee3called out in Europe.   Its time for European leaders toput up or shut up.  Let the US isolate itself.  Forget trying to placate Trump.  Let the Trump Putin deal just be irrelevant and let Trump look the fool he is.  Support Ukraine properly.   Get the weapons in thete and just ignore Trumps posturing.  Trump cannot force Ukraine to accept a bad deal

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/19/kyivs-white-house-wooing-implodes-as-zelenskyy-tells-the-truth-about-trump


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 9:33 pm
thelawman, el_boufador, ChrisL and 2 people reacted
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Yeah Gaza Riviera got a stronger Trump vibe than Donbas. As for the fact checkers, no point any more. Either you know he’s overflowing ****ing shite or you don’t care. These tirades against Zelenskyy are peak Trump (until next time)


 
Posted : 19/02/2025 10:55 pm
kimbers reacted
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Not often I get angry but the Russian ambassador interviewed by Victoria Derbyshire on last night's Ukrainecast has managed it.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 8:07 am
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Oh come on, if donkeys were a key military unit, they’d be using them from the start. Rather it’s a symptom of the terrible state that Russian logistics have been reduced to.

Meanwhile Ukraine is making 200,000 FPV drones a month.

Agree, Europe needs to sideline Trump.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 8:36 am
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MEGA. Make Europe Great Again. 
It's already pretty bloody amazing though.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 8:48 am
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Trump has realised that because Ukraine has agency and holds a reasonable hand of cards, it can't be bullied quite as easily as he thought. His pre-election promise to end the war within days and his dreamed of Nobel peace prize and pile of rare earth metals are disappearing down the pan.  He is going to fail on another key campaign promise and be made to look weak and foolish because of it.  So he is lashing out like the petulant man-baby he is and trying to shift the blame for his own failure onto Ukraine.  Only the thickest of MAGA rednecks will swallow this.

Europe is already providing Ukraine with more support than the US.  That can be ramped up, as Europe has much more to lose if Ukraine folds.  Up until now this has largely been FOC.  Zelensky could really, really piss the orange shit-gibbon off by doing a REM deal with Europe! Or, to ensure a massive Trump coronary - China!

Having digested some of this, I'm not as pessimistic about things as I was a few days ago.  This is desperation and petulance from Trump, he is going to find out that Ukraine has way more integrity, resilience and fight than he hoped.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 9:17 am
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It's at the point now where not only does Trump have to worry about being assassinated by random lunatics , but a state sponsored hit is not out of the question 


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 9:40 am
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Obviously European countries could find the money to support Ukraine if it wanted to, but do we actually have the hardware or would we just end up buying it from the US anyway?


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 9:50 am
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Posted by: blokeuptheroad

Zelensky could really, really piss the orange shit-gibbon off by doing a REM deal with Europe!

I think this would be a great result IF the REM can be extracted and processed, which isn't straight forward. But visibly doing a sensible and mature deal with Europe would show Trump just how stupid he is.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 9:55 am
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Posted by: blokeuptheroad

Trump has realised that because Ukraine has agency and holds a reasonable hand of cards, it can't be bullied quite as easily as he thought

I'm quite happy to nominate the USA into the same bucket as Iran and invite them to swivel. If people didn't believe that Trump is Putin's shill before this, I don't know what else it'll take to convince them.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 9:58 am
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or would we just end up buying it from the US anyway?

Does it matter? Defence is one of the biggest employers and foreign earners for the US. Saying no to European arms sales will hit them hard with their own voters and in the wallet. The dollar is king. However, in many areas, especially drone technology and countermeasures, wheeled and tracked artillery and many others, Europe is ahead or at least on par with the US. The defence manufacturing base is being massively ramped up across Europea because of the Russian threat.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 10:00 am
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or would we just end up buying it from the US anyway?

Does it matter? Defence is one of the biggest employers and foreign earners for the US. Saying no to European arms sales will hit them hard with their own voters and in the wallet. The dollar is king. However, in many areas, especially drone technology and countermeasures, wheeled and tracked artillery and many others, Europe is ahead or at least on par with the US. The defence manufacturing base is being massively ramped up across Europea because of the Russian threat.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 10:05 am
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I think Europe certainly has world-class capabilities when it comes to defence and arms manufacture, for sure. It just doesn't have the capacity at the moment - but that is certainly going to change. Also, I don't think the US would have a problem selling Europe arms even if the strategic relationship had gone south. It still makes sense from a transactional perspective, which seems to be the level they operate on now.

I saw an interview with Bill Browder the other day, who was saying that behind the scenes of the Munich conference, American politicians of both colours were united in their outlook on Ukraine: they see Ukraine as an ally, and are not comfortable with the Trump approach. Obviously republicans don't have enough backbone to call it out yet, but should this issue get to the house or senate, it's not necessarily going to be plain sailing. Also, at some point there will be a reckoning between the decrees of king trump, and the political realities of the elected representatives...


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 10:18 am
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Trump seems to admire Putin. He's very transactional in thinking. In his view the conflict needs to end, because that would be good for the US and world economy in the short term, regardless of the consequences or any measure of fairness. 

If the conflict ended tomorrow. With Russia taking the regions they claim to be Russian, new Ukrainian leadership and restrictions on size of Ukraine's army, the world economy would pick up, gas and oil prices would drop. Not to mention the large number of deaths that would be avoided.

Non of that would be "fair" and it would reward Russia's aggression. There is also the small complication that within the next 10 years, Russia would look be launching a new campaign in Ukraine or elsewhere. 


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 10:18 am
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Perhaps Trump's latest outburst is designed to force Zelensky into agreeing into handing over Ukraine's mineral wealth to the United States?

An interesting take I read is that Zelensky has actually played a blinder by prodding the orange idiot into making it clear he isn't an unbiased party in the negotiations - this making them as invalid as if NK and Russia were making the decision.

Risky move of course, but what did he have to lose? Trump was clearly not going to support Ukraine any further.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 10:35 am
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Posted by: faustus

I don't think the US would have a problem selling Europe arms even if the strategic relationship had gone south. It still makes sense from a transactional perspective, which seems to be the level they operate on now.

The problem for the U.S. arms manufacturers is that the technical support for their gear needs to be approved by the State Department and Pentagon, so the President can basically just brick any U.S. supplied technology on a whim. Trump's unreliability will be making countries around the world look for alternate suppliers.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 11:03 am
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Posted by: kingmod

If the conflict ended tomorrow. With Russia taking the regions they claim to be Russian, new Ukrainian leadership and restrictions on size of Ukraine's army, the world economy would pick up, gas and oil prices would drop. Not to mention the large number of deaths that would be avoided.

But, that is precisely what a Russian victory would look like, and why it can't be handed to them. It's not a military tanks-in-kyiv kind of victory, but it is a strategic one. A fatally weakened Ukraine and a puppet government; it brings the threat of Russia closer to Europe, and nobody in Europe is going to accept that - it is the outcome to be avoided the most! It would not be ten years until the next Russian campaign, and they would have the whole of Ukraine as their supplicant - much like Belarus. 

Another key move that I heard highlighted, was for Europe to make the bold move of unlocking all of the Russian frozen assets for Ukraine/Europe to use. That would plug a huge gap in funding when the US turn tail (~£300bn apparently), it removes Trumps leverage over Ukraine, and it also weakens Putin. Putin may see it as an act of war, which may be one of many reasons it's not been used to date, but he's in no position to do anything meaningful about it. It could also become a bargaining chip in future negotiations. Rather than trump saying all sanctions are lifted, the offer could be they'd get some £ back if they reduce their presence on Ukrainian soil, minus some reconstruction funds for Ukraine.  It would be a bold move, and boldness hasn't exactly been forthcoming from Europe, but it would be a good strategy, but it has to be done now, before a deal is done.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 11:50 am
bfw, roger_mellie and Murray reacted
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The only stick we have as Europeans to beat Trump is NOT buying arms from the Americans. The US military-industrial-complex would soon turn against him if we started to up our capacity in any meaningful way.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 12:44 pm
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This is worth reading.

 

Trump’s Ugly “Dictator” Rant Forces GOP into Contortions


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 12:45 pm
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Posted by: blokeuptheroad

Does it matter? Defence is one of the biggest employers and foreign earners for the US. Saying no to European arms sales will hit them hard with their own voters and in the wallet

Especially since a lot of US defence spending is carefully spread out across key states so politicians are reluctant to cut back. If that looks like it will be impacted then it will start making them nervous.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 12:57 pm
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Another key move that I heard highlighted, was for Europe to make the bold move of unlocking all of the Russian frozen assets for Ukraine/Europe to use. That would plug a huge gap in funding when the US turn tail (~£300bn apparently), it removes Trumps leverage over Ukraine, and it also weakens Putin.

There's a lot of nervousness over this within Europe. Using interest gained was deemed acceptable because it doesn't violate sovereign funds, i.e the 300bn, but going the extra step might precipitate a withdrawal of investments held in European institutions. It might also be illegal

If the central banks of all major currencies agreed then it would be safer for Europe because there's nowhere else to invest and legality would be established by international precedent. IANAE


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 1:41 pm
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This is worth reading.

Trump’s Ugly “Dictator” Rant Forces GOP into Contortions

 

Sorry, couldn't get past the typo in the sub header.

 


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 1:43 pm
 mert
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for sure. It just doesn't have the capacity at the moment - but that is certainly going to change.

FWIW I've had 3 or 4 direct approaches (not random agencies) from companies involved in the design and manufacture of military equipment since xmas. All looking to expand into new areas of defence (i haven't actually done anything defence, or defence adjacent for 25 years, and that was engine bits for the Typhoon/EJ200, not even interesting bits...)

I've not been contacted by anyone in any sort of defence industry for probably 10 years, and that was my previous employer, who would randomly contact me whenever anything came up at the same level/role/team i was at when i left...


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 1:51 pm
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Obviously European countries could find the money to support Ukraine if it wanted to, but do we actually have the hardware or would we just end up buying it from the US anyway?

The UK was the original Joint Strike Fighter programme partner with the US, provided 10% of JSF development costs and produces F35 components, along with Italy and Japan who have built complete F35s (I realise that Ukraine doesn't have F35).

We have the ability, but US companies also provide components that aren't produced elsewhere. It's almost impossible to pull away from these sort of joint ventures for any of the partners.

There are plenty of systems that are used in Ukraine that don't originate in the US, but we'd have to ramp production massively, which is where the US volume is essential.

Examples: the UK has rebuilt old UK and Russian kit for Ukraine (there's plenty of that in the world), other countries are rebuilding old stock Leopard tanks and the US is still obligated to provide kit under Presidential Drawdown from Joe Biden, so it isn't urgent yet and US supplies will continue for now


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 2:15 pm
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Top class baiting by the Star (of all papers).

thursdays-front-page-of-the-british-daily-star-putins-poodle-v0-x8l9faedu8ke1.jpeg


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 2:29 pm
steveb, retrorick, blokeuptheroad and 1 people reacted
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Oh come on, if donkeys were a key military unit, they’d be using them from the start. Rather it’s a symptom of the terrible state that Russian logistics have been reduced to.

Meanwhile Ukraine is making 200,000 FPV drones a month.

That was kinda my point though, we focus on 200,000 drones, and ignore that Russia advanced 40km more than it retreated (however you want to spin that) apparently on donkeys.

It's a stalemate, the USA is doing a rug pull, and Russia seems to keep finding ever deeper barrels to scrape the bottom of to generate a military advantage.

Well, if you turn out to be correct, which country is next? None in the region can hold Russian military force at bay alone 

Just because it's a shit outcome doesn't mean it's not going to be correct.

As for who's next.  I don't think anyone is.  The war in Ukraine has reached a level of attrition where neither side now has the manpower or hardware to fight it properly.  Russia isn't going to turn around and drive it's Soviet era tanks, exhausted conscripts and elite donkey logistics units north to Poland. 

 

 

 

 

 


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 5:29 pm
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Posted by: thisisnotaspoon

As for who's next.  I don't think anyone is. 

They won't do it straight away, in the same way they didn't invade Ukraine straight after annexing Crimea. But they'd do it while Trump is still president.

If/when the Ukraine war ends, and assuming Putin stays in power, they'll wait a couple of years, rebuild and rearm, and start destabilising (probably) one of the Baltic states, before creating some false narrative as a pretext to invade.

It all hinges on Trump and Putin still being in power.


 
Posted : 20/02/2025 5:42 pm
kelvin and Murray reacted
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