Here is your occasional reminder that NATO has not invaded Russia and is not looking to.
Cuba did not invade Murica but see what has happened to them.
Anyone wants to explain why Cuba is treated so badly?
I said:
The non-NATO scandis had no intention of joining NATO until this latest russian threat (the threat being russia are activley invading and trying to conquer countries on thier boarders).
Strange, that.
@chewkw said:
For years Scandinavian countries were told that same story and eventually they succumbed to the NATO persuasion
I think Putin raiding Ukraine, again, may have been the last straw, I doubt anyone "succumbed" to anything.
I can't speak for the Finns, but if I were them, I'd be looking to form or deepen non-russian alliances, given they have quite a large border with a country that is activley starting wars with countries on its own borders.
Here is your occasional reminder that NATO has not invaded Russia and is not looking to.
————————-
What would it take to have a “HIDE” post option next to the REPLY & REPORT ones?
+1
+1
I think Putin raiding Ukraine, again, may have been the last straw, I doubt anyone “succumbed” to anything.
I can’t speak for the Finns, but if I were them, I’d be looking to form or deepen non-russian alliances, given they have quite a large border with a country that is activley starting wars with countries on its own borders.
The narrative of Russia being the evil expanding empire, especially to those countries with boarder to Russia, has been going on for decades. However, Ukraine is a strategic position for Russia and that's why they are not allowed/permitted to be under the influence of NATO/Muria/West, regardless.
Ukraine is a strategic position for Russia and that’s why they are not allowed/permitted to be under the influence of NATO
I'm not if sure you got the memo? Ukraine is a sovereign country. They can do whatever they please, and that includes protecting thier borders and forming allies with other countries as they see fit.
Firstly, NATO didn't invade Ukraine.
Secondly, NATO didn't commit war crimes against Ukrainians.
Thirdly, NATO did not explicitly threaten Sweden and Finland.
Fourthly, in the absence of
What would it take to have a “HIDE” post option next to the REPLY & REPORT ones?
perhaps maybe not keep bollocking on with assertions that have already been debunked and that make very little logical sense.
that’s why they are not allowed/permitted to be under the influence of NATO/Muria/West, regardless.
This quote would be best illustrated with the Benny Hill Theme and with clips of soon to be Russian tank turrets being popped off by the various NATO main battle tanks headed there.
I wonder if chewkw is aware that Putin was actually invited to join NATO? IIRC, he was considering it, but then decided to become an autocratic, authoritarian dictator hell-bent on restoring the Imperial Russian empire with himself as Peter The Great. The man is paranoid and mad as a bag of owls, pretty much cut off from what is going on in the rest of Russia.
However, Ukraine is a strategic position for Russia and that’s why they are not allowed/permitted to be under the influence of NATO/Muria/West, regardless.
I’ve told you before, chewkw, Ukraine was a sovereign country a thousand years ago, it’s rulers were princes from what are now Scandinavia, Vikings, in fact, who were called the Rus; ‘those who build boats’. From Rus comes the word Russia. Kyiv was a city with cathedrals when Moscow was little more than a hamlet in the middle of a forest. Russia owes everything it has to Ukraine, but can’t bear to admit it, hence all Putin’s rhetoric about Ukraine being nothing more than a small district of greater Russia.
Also, look up Saint Olga of Kyiv. A Viking princess who really kicked ass!
I’m not if sure you got the memo? Ukraine is a sovereign country. They can do whatever they please.
So is Cuba but nobody seems to care about them.
Firstly, NATO didn’t invade Ukraine.
Did Cuba invade America?
Secondly, NATO didn’t commit war crimes against Ukrainians.
Nor did Cuba on Americans but other South American cartels I can't say.
Thirdly, NATO did not explicitly threaten Sweden and Finland.
They don't have to because the bogeyman Russia does the job for them.
This quote would be best illustrated with the Benny Hill Theme and with clips of soon to be Russian tank turrets being popped off by the various NATO main battle tanks headed there.
Yes, but why is America so afraid of Cuba a tiny nation? Now that's real Benny Hill moment don't you say? A tiny nation like Cuba? Really?
I wonder if chewkw is aware that Putin was actually invited to join NATO? IIRC, he was considering it, but then decided to become an autocratic, authoritarian dictator hell-bent on restoring the Imperial Russian empire with himself as Peter The Great. The man is paranoid and mad as a bag of owls, pretty much cut off from what is going on in the rest of Russia.
Putin would be a fool if he did that.
They don’t have to because the bogeyman Russia does the job for them.
So the penny has finally dropped? lol.
And, we're back in non-sequiturland again.
@mods - can we perhaps have a Cuba thread so that chewkw can talk crap about Cuba there please?
So the penny has finally dropped? lol.
LOL! Poked the hornet's nest then accused the hornet of being vicious.
Why should he? He would be a fool to do that.
Russia, or possibly more accurately, the Putin regime are still members of the U.N. I belive, but he seems to do everything he can to undermine peace, democracy and having a general global consensus of peace.
It's little wonder he won't join NATO, not that he'd ever be allowed to after the last few years.
I'm pretty sure the U.N. would be glad to see the back of him too.
LOL! Poked the hornet’s nest then accused the hornet of being vicious.
The hornets nest being Ukraine, and the poker being putin? yep, makes sense.
Ukraine is a strategic position for Russia and that’s why they are not allowed/permitted to be under the influence of NATO
Not allowed? Not permitted? Would you listen to yourself! In the USSR days, Russia got away with subjugating and bullying other states. As much as it hates it, the USSR is no more. It doesn't get to tell sovereign nations what they are allowed or permitted to do anymore. Yeah, yeah some random irrelevant whataboutery about Cuba 🙄
Russia, or possibly more accurately, the Putin regime are still members of the U.N. I belive, but he seems to do everything he can to undermine peace, democracy and having a general global consensus of peace.
How many wars have the American/NATO involved?
It’s little wonder he won’t join NATO, not that he’d ever be allowed to after the last few years.
I’m pretty sure the U.N. would be glad to see the back of him too.
Why invite Russia to join NATO I don't know.
The hornets nest being Ukraine, and the poker being putin? yep, makes sense.
Eermmm ... LOL
Not allowed? Not permitted? Would you listen to yourself! In the USSR days, Russia got away with subjugating and bullying other states. As much as it hates it, the USSR is no more. It doesn’t get to tell sovereign nations what they are allowed or permitted to do anymore. Yeah, yeah some random irrelevant whataboutery about Cuba 🙄
Why is America still put Cuba in sanctions?
Fun fact: Both Lada and Rover displayed an image of a longboat on their respective grille-badges.
Also, look up Saint Olga of Kyiv. A Viking princess who really kicked ass!
Stooge puppet of Murica obvs 🙄
Why is America still put Cuba is some form of sanctions
Start a separate thread about Cuba if you must, but stop derailing this one with your irrelevant obsession with it.
Start a separate thread about Cuba if you must, but stop derailing this one with your irrelevant obsession with it.
BBC: Nato's border with Russia doubles as Finland joins
Even the title of this article says a lot about NATO.
Even the title of this article says a lot about NATO
What does it say to you?
What does it say to you?
NATO has gained grounds.
What is your interpretation?
It's the beeb so a badly written article, but facts are facts:
Russia's invasion prompted a surge in Finnish public opinion towards joining Nato to 80% in favour.
It’s the beeb so a badly written article, but facts are facts:
I think it is deliberate otherwise no news.
Russia’s invasion prompted a surge in Finnish public opinion towards joining Nato to 80% in favour.
I wonder what the 20% think.
NATO has gained grounds.
As a direct result of Russian actions. Russia caused it. Neighbouring countries fear Russia because of their recently demonstrated desire for conquest and expansion so join a defensive alliance for protection. Who can blame them? Sweden and Finland had zero interest in joining NATO until Putin's illegal invasion.
I wonder what the 20% think.
It's called a democratic consensus, unlike the 48/52% brexit vote in the UK.
I wonder what the 20% think.
I've suspected for a while that you struggle with the concept of democracy
I wonder what the 20% think.
I can only dream of a referendum or opinion poll that drew 80/20.
As a direct result of Russian actions. Russia caused it. Neighbouring countries fear Russia because of their recently demonstrated desire for conquest and expansion so join a defensive alliance for protection. Who can blame them? Sweden and Finland had zero interest in joining NATO until Putin’s illegal invasion.
Good to know it is so clear and simple.
It’s called a democratic consensus, unlike the 48/52% brexit vote in the UK.
eermmm ... you might be asked to return to the Brexit thread if you wish to associate with Brexit voting pattern. Don't you know this is strictly NATO/Ukraine Vs Russia thread? LOL. You mean they voted wrongly? LOL!
this is strictly NATO/Ukraine Vs Russia thread?
Incorrect, this is a thread about the illegal invasion and war upon Ukraine, comitted by Russia.
Don't rise to it. Interesting posts are being buried under pages of nonsense 🙂
Incorrect, this is a thread about the illegal invasion and war upon Ukraine, comitted by Russia.
That's interesting about Legality of war.
Good point, as entertaining as Chewk is, I'm out of this thread for the time being.
I'm also out until the thread re-rails.
Come on - don’t feed the troll 🤷♂️
I said it some months back and I'm doubling down on it again, the war ends with a coup in Russia. Someone will see that they can make their lives better without Putin being in the way. They'll do what they need to to reverse sanctions which basically means abandoning the war in Ukraine.
That’s interesting about Legality of war.
Oh go on, I'll bite. Demonstrate the legality of Russia's "action" regarding Ukraine.
Oh god. He’s back. See you in a while once he goes away again. Thanks for all the sane voices on here. Seriously, don’t feed the troll.
Getting slightly back on track with regards to Finland.
There was at least one US tanker flying up and down in the area so suspect some fighters were making an obvious welcome trip.
I said it some months back and I’m doubling down on it again, the war ends with a coup in Russia. Someone will see that they can make their lives better without Putin being in the way. They’ll do what they need to to reverse sanctions which basically means abandoning the war in Ukraine.
End with a coup to be replaced by someone who is much more capable? Aren't that a higher risk?
How do you know they don't like Putin? I don't. I just assume that's their system.
Reverse sanctions? They are not going to starve you know with the vast landmass they have. However, the West will have to deal with inflation. Sanctions only work if the West does not rely on energy source.
Abandoning Ukraine will be worst than being annihilated and forever will carry the scar with humiliation.
Oh go on, I’ll bite. Demonstrate the legality of Russia’s “action” regarding Ukraine.
Legality requires authority and authority requires power and power requires brute force; and that's what happened to Iraq with their WMD. It is legal because the West can fulfilled the conditions of authority, power and brute force in the context of nation state. In the case of Iraq they cannot do anything about it at all other than suffer the consequences of a foreign power definition of legality. But in this case it is neither legal nor illegal until the victor emerges. Only the strong can define the legality of a conflict. Therefore, until someone emerge victorious to impose the rules the meaning of legality is meaningless.
I am out.
Do we really still have to put up with Chewkw the thread vandal? We know he can contribute usefully when he feels the urge, we know he can communicate clearly, which means we know that this gibbering contrarian graffiti is deliberate. Trolling's supposed to be against STW rules, no?
There's a usually a pattern or frequency with his behaviour. I'm assuming something has gone awry hence why he's acting up and behaving like a tool.
@chewkw You could just start a thread like so many others do when they're not happy and talk about it there instead of og shitting on other people's enjoyment.
But ya know, you do you.
There’s a usually a pattern or frequency with his behaviour. I’m assuming something has gone awry hence why he’s acting up and behaving like a tool.
Trumps arrest will have set it off
Trumps arrest will have set it off
LOL! No, it's American news so not sure whether to get excited or not but certainly no impact whatsoever for me.
I am out
LOL and suddenly he can post in perfect english in order to play the victim card
Do we really still have to put up with Chewkw the thread vandal?
Have you considered ignoring posts you don't like?
I think there's also a defenestration related performance contract clause for forum posts to consider too.
molgrips
Full MemberHave you considered ignoring posts you don’t like?
Aye, it's dead easy to ignore gigantic screeds of horseflops and the pages of responses they generate.
Ignoring vandalism really doesn't help.
It is easy yes. I ignore most of STW.
I really don't think Chewkw deserves the bullying he gets. He's got a particular way of expressing himself and is trying to make a point rather clumsily, but then most people on here do that. You lot come across as total bastards at times.
His point about legality being equivalent to superior force is one of Francis Fukuyama's key principles of a political state - the monopoly of force - and the point re Iraq is a good one too. In other words, the powerful ones get to decide what's right.
Have you considered ignoring posts you don’t like?
Yup, it has to a better response than snidey personal digs. And quite easy to achieve. Nothing forces me to read chewkw's posts.
molgrips
Full MemberIt is easy yes. I ignore most of STW.
And you think that's good do you? There's individual threads I ignore when it's just the usual suspects playing their games, but when people are intentionally crapping on a good thread like this, it's not healthy and if it leads to you feeling you have to ignore most of the forum, that's a shame tbf.
Chewkw doesn't have "a particular way of expressing himself", he has at least two- and he chooses which one to use. He doesn't express himself clumsily at all. I used to think he did, and I never once complained when it seemed to be a language thing, until he started slipping. But now that he's made it so obvious that it's a choice, a forum trolling apersonality, then he should be in the bin imo. It's not "bullying" to call that out.
(maybe this is more relevant to people who actually don't ignore half the forum?)
In any case- now I'm falling for it too and helping him make the Ukraine Thread into another Chewkw thread so I'll stop here, and hopefully so will he and we can get back to the actual subject.
This is the problem with adopting ridiculous contrarian positions - how do you stay in character without ever slipping?
https://twitter.com/TheBaseLeg/status/1643399878461231104
I think that Chewkw's point about the relationship between legality and power is a salient one and one and not a crackpot idea as the Fukuyama reference illustrates, (not that some of Fukuyama's ideas aren't a bit crackpot...'The end of History' anyone?)
One thing that is rarely mentioned is that there are still many Ukranians who are loyal to Russia, like the ones who refuse to be evacuated from cities under siege even though their Russian 'brethren' are shelling the s*** out of them. Mental I know, but turkeys and Christmas, Brexit and taking back control etc, you can't un-mad mad people.
In that light does anyone think that Ukraine is going to regain all the teritories lost to Russia and return it's borders to the post Soviet condition? and if they did would that result in a lasting peace? A total victory for Ukraine would leave millions of self identifying Russians either digruntled or displaced.
In some ways the situation reminds me of the partition of India, a careless and hastily made arrangement birthed the soverign nations of both ****stan and Ukraine. Dombass, Luhansk and Crimea standing in for Kashmir.
I said at the begining of this thread that I don't see Ukraine regaining all its former teritories, My guess is that the Ukranian counter offensive will break through to the Black Sea between Melitapol and Mariapol, denying the Russians the land bridge to Crimea and a peace deal will be struck that leaves Russia with the former annexed teritories in the east and Crimea.
Basically a whole lot of wasted life for nothing. A score draw for Russia and something less for Ukraine, though the remaining portion of Ukraine will have forged a new identity for itself, rid of Russian interference.
Ukranians remaining in the East and Crimea will abandon hope and migrate to Ukraine proper and Russian sympathisers left in the new Ukraine will migrate in the other direction to drink vodka and sing songs about the 'Great Patriotic War' (and the not so great one...)
Ukranians remaining in the East and Crimea will have been shipped to far flung parts of Russia.
The US is supplying $2.6bn of materiel to help a Ukrainian counter-offensive, "Our focus is on supporting the Ukrainians to change the dynamic on the ground. We want to help Ukraine advance and hold its positions in what we expect will be a Ukrainian counteroffensive," https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3351964/large-quantity-of-defensive-munitions-earmarked-for-ukraine/
This is the problem with adopting ridiculous contrarian positions – how do you stay in character without ever slipping?
Ah Gidfrey, I've had the displeasure of meeting thas windbag, he truly does believe his own hype.
It's always the fucming reservists who self declare they're experts on military matters.
a peace deal will be struck that leaves Russia with the former annexed teritories in the east and Crimea.
There won't be any peace deal of any kind until Putin is dead. He cannot be trusted to keep any promises he makes so Ukraine will not sign any treaty because it would just give Russia time to rearm ready for another attack.
Peace treaties need to be backed up by military force. The only permanent peace will be when Ukrainian sovereignty is guaranteed by NATO and Russia is deterred from any further attacks. That won't happen for many years because it would require a Russian leader to accept that Russia cannot invade its neighbors.
And it doesn't really matter whether Ukraine is in NATO or not, as long as Ukraine is hostile to Russia, the Russian navy is grounded.
https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1643383105724489730
saw an article saying elon / twitter are deliberately down voting anything to do with the ukraine war. that'll be why my feeds suddenly dried up when Elon took over.
claims he is worried about ww3. either that or he is looking at investment opportunities in russia.....does seem at odds with his earlier support for ukr and supplying starlink
maybe he realised how many windows his mansion has
His point about legality being equivalent to superior force is one of Francis Fukuyama’s key principles of a political state – the monopoly of force – and the point re Iraq is a good one too. In other words, the powerful ones get to decide what’s right
The 2003 invasion of Iraq took place 20 years ago (19th/20th March) and so there's been a lot written about it recently which I won't repeat, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/17/iraq-war-spies-labour-invasion-conflict
The point is that 20 years later Russia made many of the same blunders, including having a media that didn't hold the leadership to account before the invasion (Piers Morgan and The Mirror were amongst the few that openly opposed invading Iraq)
Fukyama's first pillar is the state as a monopoly of power that's there to protect its people and to provide services, education, health, etc EDIT NB, power, not force (Fukuyama's own word)
His second pillar is the rule of law, not rules and reasons that can be made up as you go but before you start
The third pillar is democratic accountability
There has to be a tension and a balance between the three and Russia displays none of these characteristics
For the invasion of Iraq: The Chilcot Inquiry is here https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06215/
For the invasions of Ukraine: the reasons keep shifting, but it started as an invasion of Crimea in 2014, spread to the Donbas and then a full invasion last year. It's notable that the Russian state hasn't protected Russian-minority people in Ukraine, but slashed and burned wherever they could
Peace treaties need to be backed up by military force.
And theyre usually arrived at by force too. Its is, more often than not, the implications of battlefield (whether military or economic) realities that determine the terms of negotiation.
There has to be a tension and a balance between the three and Russia displays none of these characteristics
Of course, I'm not saying Russia is a successful state...
Public support for Russia has collapsed amongst those who supported, or perceived themselves as Russia pre war. That's what a bodged invasion, no plans and atrocities do for you.
You'd think that the natural end for this is a coup, but Russia is a bit mediaeval about this - historically always had tzars, or the last hundred years, dictators with no real accountability, and a population that's use to living in misery.. so sadly I tihnk we're a ways from that, no matter how many 10's of 1000's of their own kids they let get killed. I guess we see how the spring goes, and then see if the army helps Mr Putin develop health complications.
In the meantime, as well as Finland joining Nato, Sweden trying, and all of Scandinavia clubbing together anyway to protect airspace, Russia has to deal with trouble in the 'stans now it's not a good police force, trouble with it's little 'peacekeeping' force in a bereakway bit of Moldova, and it's had to sell it's backside to China, so all in all not a great success. I noted that even Lukashenko said there should be a ceasefire - he doesn't want to get dragged in as he won't last a fortnight before he's on a rope.
Public support for Russia has collapsed amongst those who supported, or perceived themselves as Russia pre war
Oh god I hope so! Source?
Russia is a bit mediaeval about this – historically always had tzars, or the last hundred years, dictators with no real accountability, and a population that’s use to living in misery.
I'm definitely not a Russia expert, but little I know does seem to point towards this being the case. They seem to take a weird sort of pride in it, in fact
Public support for Russia has collapsed amongst those who supported...
Do you refer to the public perception of Russia outside of the country or the level of support for the war from ordinary Russians?
You’d think that the natural end for this is a coup, but Russia is a bit mediaeval about this – historically always had tzars, or the last hundred years, dictators with no real accountability
Selected quotes from a former Russian intelligence officer I cannot comment as to how close this defector was to Putin or the authenticity of the claims being made, but the outcome of the mooted three day campaign to take Kyiv is readily apparent.
What are the odds that the Top Secret / NATO leak is disinformation?
Would be a blinder!
EDIT - found it…
What with all the talk about running out of ammo and that? I’ve wondered the same. If it is and you’d asked me a year ago, I’d have scoffed at the thought of the Russians being stoopid enough to buy it.
Now though? Hook, line and sinker!
What are the odds that the Top Secret / NATO leak is disinformation?
That's always the first thing I consider when leaks like this happen.
'Sources' in the DOD have apparently confirmed the documents are real and the Ukrainians are apparently 'furious.'
But then again... that's exactly what they would say if it was all a massive misdirection opp. There's info in there that doesn't really help the Ukrainians even if it is false but then again, a really slick operation would sprinkle some of that in it to make the rest believable.
The timing of the leak seems almost too on the nose, weather report for Kherson says dry all week...... is Mud season ending?
Thing is, even if the Russians move a load of troops and assets in response to this intel the CIA's satellites will feed their locations to Kiev almost in real time and with their shorter of lines communication the Ukrainians will be able to reposition faster than the Russians will.
The truth will come out eventually but right now it's all pure speculation.
Some respect being shown to the Ukrainian's as they leave training in the UK.
https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1645730797087776768?t=IwlCSgLdGyIi8HsP82_9Lw&s=19
Wow, that got me right on the feels, don't get to feel that proud of the UK often recently but that really did it.
A fully appropriate send-off too, considering what awaits those brave lads back home.
Are they British soldiers? The salute is wrong.
It's a multination training program hosted by the UK armed forces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Interflex
Are they British soldiers? The salute is wrong.
Maybe it's a Ukrainian salute. After all that's what you'd do if you really wanted to show them respect.
Selected quotes from a former Russian intelligence officer I cannot comment as to how close this defector was to Putin or the authenticity of the claims being made, but the outcome of the mooted three day campaign to take Kyiv is readily apparent
'Lives in an information vacuum' 'gets all of his information from...Russian TV'
So much like Trump!
Are they British soldiers? The salute is wrong.
Twitter reckons there's a whole mixture of different NATO soldiers in there, although it is on a UK base
Theres a video doing the rounds which is of a Ukrainian POW allegedly being (Ive not watched it) tortured, mutilated and murdered.
Might be worth taking a day or two off twitter to avoid seeing that.
There is a very graphic video of a Ukrainian soldier getting beheaded,..and his head put on a spike in Bakhmut.
Not even sure I have the words.