Sounds like a full evacuation and the ship being left to burn, which would point at a magazine fire being the issue, either through being hit externally, or even worse for the Russians, something going wrong internally that's led to this!
It looks like Putin/Russia is losing big time judging by all the losses.
Both sides are losing. Neither side can win, they can only seek to reduce what they could ultimately lose. Depressing. And all the fault of one man... I don't blame the Ukrainians at all for fighting so hard to keep as much of their country (and people) out of Putin's hands as they can. I don't think I would be brave enough to do the same in their situation, but you can never really know until you are forced to respond to naked aggression from a tyrant.
An article in Forbes that hasn’t aged well
Kinda has though:
The only Ukrainian forces that might have any realistic shot at Moskva are the new Neptune anti-ship missile batteries. The stealthy, radar-guided Neptune can strike ships as far away as 175 miles. Kiev has bought Turkish-made TB-2 drones and American-made radars that can spot targets for the Neptunes
Handy that the Bosphorus is closed to naval vessels at the moment
You’d have saved an awful lot of face with some critical thinking, instead flooding the thread with anecdotal opinion that happens to align with your worldview presented without context that wastes everyone’s time and does nothing to improve how people perceive your standing on this forum
I don't have much alignment to worldview particularly in the case of Ukraine/Russia. Although I may be presenting information that some may be considered as propaganda (no benefit to me), they are just information that can be countered considering critical thinking is being applied. However, that does not mean that such information ("propaganda") is deliberate. Not all information is accurately nor inaccurate even when they come from sources that might be questioned. I don't align with any of them and definitely not CCP.
And all the fault of one man… I don’t blame the Ukrainians at all for fighting so hard to keep as much of their country (and people) out of Putin’s hands as they can.
In any fights there are always two parties. Assuming the context of one aggressor (baddies) and one defender (goodies). If only one can back off there will be no fight but that's just wishful thinking as nobody likes to be bullied, especially they have some capabilities to fight back. The outcome can be predictable or unpredictable but the question is whether it should be avoided in the first place. Difficult to question to answer that.
Don’t feed the trolls
It’s not about feeding trolls - why not challenge with questions like “why do you hold that opinion?”. If the response degrades into evasion, non-sequitur or insults then that’s a matter for the mods. Otherwise, I’m cool if Chewkw can apply critical thinking and intellectual rigour to what he posts here. The aggravation for me is when he a) doesn’t and b) resorts to whataboutery. His response to the Jamal Khashoggi post a few pages back was a perfect example of the latter. I’m surprised that noone else took him to task on that.
Can we just stop constantly dragging chewkw now please? It's very tedious and quite unpleasant.
I don’t have much alignment to worldview particularly in the case of Ukraine/Russia.
That’s demonstratively false, even if it’s subconscious bias on your part, it’s readily apparent.
Not all information is accurately nor inaccurate even when they come from sources that might be questioned.
But you don’t question per se, you just parrot without any critical approach. A teeny bit of due-diligence on your part would improve how others perceive you no end.
I don’t align with any of them and definitely not CCP.
Noone mentioned the Chinese Communist Party except you. I fail to understand the relevance of that here.
Kinda has though:
Kinda depends on which bits you selectively quote though! 😉
'She packs enough anti-ship missiles to wipe out the entire Ukrainian navy and enough air-defense missiles to swat away any conceivable aerial attack'
'The Ukrainian fleet is powerless to resist'.
'The Ukrainian air force retreated from separatist-controlled Donbas in 2015 and since then hasn’t played any major role in Ukraine’s defense'.
'Moskva is a big ship and has proved she can take a missile'.
If only one can back off there will be no fight
But in this case there would still be loses. Anyone that thinks that just letting Putin move his troops in without armed resistance would be life as normal, rather than systematic killing, rape, torture, poisonings, imprisonment, and violent suppression is naive in the extreme. And those thinking that would stop at Ukraine's borders, rather than push onwards, are just clinging to the same hope as people were 50 or so days ago, when the possibility of the latest series of invasions and bombings was derided as just western politicians talking up the risk for their own interests.
but the question is whether it should be avoided in the first place. Difficult to question to answer that.
Apply that logic to Vietnam
‘Moskva is a big ship and has proved she can take a missile’.
Well that part appears true, though perhaps not in the way the author intended.
the Moskva is listed as having 6 of these! Did they run out of ammo ? or not upto snuff ?
Surely some sort of satellite imagery is available to confirm that this ship is not being towed to port like the Russians have said?
I’ve no idea as to how Russia’s deployment in the Black Sea is being planned, is the Moskva a stand alone asset or is it accompanied by air defence support ships (e.g. surface to air armed destroyers)?
But in this case there would still be loses.
Not entirely, because buying time and getting to know each others perhaps will heal the understanding between the two. It may or may not but there is always the time. People don't live forever and Putin will not live forever like everyone else.
Anyone that thinks that just letting Putin move his troops in without armed resistance would be life as normal, rather than systematic killing, rape, torture, poisonings, imprisonment, and violent suppression is naive in the extreme
As for atrocities, I don't support any of the tactics used by the way, but if both are armed then that is a fair fight because both have the equal possibilities.
And those thinking that would stop at Ukraine’s borders, rather than push onwards, are just clinging to the same hope as they were 50 or so days ago when the latest series of invasions was derided as just western politicians talking up the risk for their own interests.
As one US political commentator questions the rationality of Ukraine giving up their nukes rendering their inability to deter Russia/Putin. It is interesting to see that having nukes is a necessity when confronted or surrounded by other nuclear power. Does that mean the world (all nations) need to have nukes? (poking into the arguments of nuke deterrent).
Surely some sort of satellite imagery is available to confirm that this ship is not being towed to port like the Russians have said?
Does it really matter? It's out of the picture for the short and medium term.
It suffered a less serious missile strike in 2009 and spent a year in dry dock.
Does it really matter?
Well yes, symbolically. If it's intact but just needs fixing then one would assume its ammo and sailors could be re-used elsewhere.
PJM1974
Free Member
I’ve no idea as to how Russia’s deployment in the Black Sea is being planned, is the Moskva a stand alone asset or is it accompanied by air defence support ships (e.g. surface to air armed destroyers)?
Moskva was the air defense ship for rest of the fleet
If it’s intact but just needs fixing then one would assume its ammo and sailors could be re-used elsewhere.
its ammo appears to have detonated
Thank you Kimbers, that’s informative.
Did they run out of ammo ? or not upto snuff ?
Not up to snuff, these sorts of really close in defensive guns are mostly for show, the missile will be doing several 1000kph at wave top height, any radar will have difficulty picking something like that up, even if you can see it in time to start shooting at it.
As with much Russian kit, the gap between what they claim it does, what it really does and whether it works on the day can be vast.
getting to know each others perhaps will heal the understanding between the two
You think that's what is happening in occupied territory? Okay...
How does Putin fit into this? Will he come to "understand" the people of Ukraine, as he crushes all dissent, captures and imprisons (if they're lucky) any political figures right down to local level, and his forces uses all the measures seen in use in Ukraine and elsewhere to terrify and destroy society into submission?
Blokeuptheroad posted that forbes link
It did point out that
The only Ukrainian forces that might have any realistic shot at Moskva are the new Neptune anti-ship missile batteries. The stealthy, radar-guided Neptune can strike ships as far away as 175 miles. Kiev has bought Turkish-made TB-2 drones and American-made radars that can spot targets for the Neptunes.
Russia claims that the long range missile capability of the Moskva is intact, but then they would say that, wouldn’t they?
To be honest until it sails up the Thames and parallel parks next to HMS Belfast I don’t believe a word the Russians say.
Lithuanina governemnt apparently saying it sank
https://twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/status/1514561198766886923
Not up to snuff, these sorts of really close in defensive guns are mostly for show, the missile will be doing several 1000kph at wave top height, any radar will have difficulty picking something like that up, even if you can see it in time to start shooting at it.
Add in clutter from the rough seas too, likely didn’t have a hope
Surely some sort of satellite imagery is available to confirm that this ship is not being towed to port like the Russians have said?
Hopefully they can get footage from a TB2 showing the state of it
Edit: if it’s still floating
As with much Russian kit, the gap between what they claim it does, what it really does and whether it works on the day can be vast.
TBF to the Russian this is true of most (if not all) military kit. It's not until these things actually start being used in a shooting war can the faults be revealed. - See for example; Sea Dart's low level under-performance in the Falklands campaign
Tanks are another good example - for years Russia has hosted various ‘tank olympics’ type events showing their prowess at drifting and jumping over obstacles. US and Brits pulled out years ago but various countries still compete. Just goes to show it’s all guff…
Surely some sort of satellite imagery is available to confirm that this ship is not being towed to port like the Russians have said?
I would expect that various drones and satellites are collecting images already - but that they may not share the results publicly until either the information war or practical advantage is capitalised.
Not up to snuff, these sorts of really close in defensive guns are mostly for show, the missile will be doing several 1000kph at wave top height, any radar will have difficulty picking something like that up, even if you can see it in time to start shooting at it.
The explanation I read was that the big/good/main radar only has a 180 degree field of vision, and was being distracted by a loitering TB2 (which may also have been helping direct the missiles). The other radars are not as good, and as there were large waves due to the stormy sea, would have struggled to spot a couple of missiles in all the foam etc.
If so, that's very clever! Put a TB2 in the opposite direction to your missile launch so it is blind.
Surely some sort of satellite imagery is available to confirm that this ship is not being towed to port like the Russians have said?
Satellites might not be able to spot it if it's gone undercover.
The explanation I read was that the big/good/main radar only has a 180 degree field of vision, and was being distracted by a loitering TB2
Ukraine said they fired two missiles. I know nothing about naval warfare, but it seems pretty obvious to fire two or more missiles programmed to attack from different directions. If the radar only has a 180 degree field of vision, sending in some drones to distract it and then having two missiles arriving from two other directions seems an obvious way to do things.
Interesting that there's an incomplete Slava class cruiser moored at the Mikolayiv Shipyard, Ukraine, so I guess that the Ukrainian military has plenty of intelligence as to the Moskva's capabilities and weaknesses.
https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1514500108230045697
https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1514500359741394944
I don't know which is more embarassing. Being sunk by enemy action, randomly catching fire, or mishandling munitiions so they randomly explode?
How does Putin fit into this? Will he come to “understand” the people of Ukraine, as he crushes all dissent, captures and imprisons (if they’re lucky) any political figures right down to local level, and his forces uses all the measures seen in use in Ukraine and elsewhere to terrify and destroy society into submission?
He will not live forever like everyone else. He may crushed all dissents but he will not be there forever. The society will evolve with time but it is history now.
I don’t know which is more embarassing. Being sunk by enemy action, randomly catching fire, or mishandling munitiions so they randomly explode?
All embarrassing because they are all failures.
I don’t know which is more embarassing. Being sunk by enemy action, randomly catching fire, or mishandling munitions so they randomly explode?
Well, we've seen how Russian T-72 tanks lose their turrets thanks to stored munitions exploding in event of the turret being hit. These are Soviet era designs - the Moskva itself pre-dates the lessons learned by the Royal Navy during the Falklands conflict. As an aside, I'm pretty sure that the last cruiser type naval vessel to be sunk was the General Belgrano?
so I guess that the Ukrainian military has plenty of intelligence as to the Moskva’s capabilities and weaknesses.
I read somewhere that the Moskva was actually built in Ukraine to begin with. In any case it appears to be a spectacular win. I'm surprised the drone wasn't shot down to begin with but it may have been that the radar was focused on jamming communication with the drone at the time. Impossible for us to tell but you can be sure people are all over trying to work out how this was done
randomly catching fire, or mishandling munitiions so they randomly explode?
Not sure what defences you think are going to protect a ship and it's munitions against supersonic missile attack? Pretty much every single military vessel afloat right now is vulnerable to these weapons once they get past a ships defences. Ship defence these days is essentially seeing them far enough away from the ship to destroy it itself, or directing something else to destroy it or jam it's radar/guidance system so that it misses. If the missile evades all three, it's going to mostly destroy every ship it hits.
russian families on navy forums apparently asking for details of sailors as theyve had no info
looking more & more like its been sunk with a big loss of life
Ouch. I can’t even begin to understand what the sailors’ families must be going through.
None of this plays well for Putin’s domestic approval, what with the losses of soldiers and equipment so far and rising inflation & shortages of goods.
