Do the Russians have another ship that can replicate what the stricken ship does?
It would actually have to be part of the Black Sea fleet as well, I’ll need to double check what Turkey is doing with access.
I think it’s along the lines of the existing fleet ships can transit but new ones cannot be added.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_Straits#Terms
From wiki
However, Çavuşoğlu reiterated that pursuant to the terms of the agreement, Turkey cannot block Russian warships from returning to their registered base.[47] Around February 27–28, Turkey denied 3 of 4 Russian warships to enter the Black Sea, as 3 did not have home base in the Black Sea.
Zippy - Russia has limited ships in the Black Sea, and Turkey controls entry to it. By treaty, it doesn’t allow warring nations ships to pass unless they are returning to home port.
LOL @ PJM, well played.
Genuinely, my intention wasn't to embarrass or humiliate Chewkw, I wanted to understand his thinking behind sharing those two videos and (hopefully) for Chewkw to learn to critically assess sources before posting them verbatim without context. If he were to be completely honest, he'd say that he was looking for content that squared with his own view, not that his view changed in the face of fresh evidence.
Anyway, I'm catching up on the news this morning. The successful (and now independently verified) attack on the Moskva is one heck of a ballsy move, even if the Moskva hasn't sunk it's been badly damaged and will be out of action for some considerable time yet.
even if the Moskva hasn’t sunk
I think Russian media saying it's been sunk
Apparently stormy seas too, no idea how many got off, the Russian media says all, I'm sceptical
Might we see Russian retaliation on this - likely on the civilian population?
🙁
Also, if this is now a gap in air cover, surely Ukrainian forces will make use of this asap before replacement is made.
I think Russian media saying it’s been sunk
Apparently stormy seas too
Wow. The Black Sea can be stormy if you drop enough cruise missiles in it.
Aren't the US sending them 100 drones?
That should make the ships more vulnerable
The thing is people had no idea that Ukraine had any anti ship missile left, so Russia will have to be extra cautious, well played by Ukrainias
Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. Maybe the west is testing the toys Zelensky has been asking for. Who knows… but that mad Russian **** clearly isn’t as capable as he’s been making out so if his melon is being twisted that’s fine by me.
Distract with drone whilst sneaking up and planting a mine on its side? (Yes 21st century X Cockleshell heroes)
How will the potential sinking of the ship help those on land?
Militarily I don’t think this has much effect. She doesn’t carry anything useable against land targets. I suspect this is more significant from a morale point of view.
Aren’t the US sending them 100 drones?
And the U.K. is apparently sending Harpoon missile
Former Warsaw Pact members busy losing tanks to somewhere. US is adding heavy weapons to the list including artillery and Mi-17s.
Like it or not, we seem to be at everything but boots officially on the ground/air territory.
Massive win for Ukraine
Distract with drone whilst sneaking up and planting a mine on its side? (Yes 21st century X Cockleshell heroes)
Source?
Honestly I really think the ONLY thing the Russian military can do with any efficiency is kill civilians. Complete animals I’m afraid. Steve Rosenbergs piece on Valentina the newspaper lady is a timely reminder that for all the propaganda we see, not all Russians are like this.
As for the Ukrainians, well we’ve had months now of Western experts saying, ‘Ukraine can’t do this, Russia will do that’, but they keep going in the face of the most appalling violence. The fortitude and determination of the people in that country is just incredible.
Question for anyone that's been in the armed forces.
I've seen quite a lot of empty vodka bottles and so on seemingly consumed by Russia troops.
Is that common in other armed forces?
It doesn't seem like a good thing to me, poor leadership, poor morale, poor discipline and heavy losses, then get drunk whilst on duty.
Russian media statement on the Mosckva 😉
https://twitter.com/BitcoinVick/status/1514447356024004610?s=20&t=BoxrT4R8n4Xf3ai7m2uUHQ
Is that common in other armed forces?
I once took half a bottle of Jack Daniels on exercise on Salisbury plain, would have been for the high jump if caught though. On operations it's strictly dry.
Do the Russians have another ship that can replicate what the stricken ship does?
What, sink with huge loss of life? I'm sure they do.
Seriously, I doubt the Russians will be sending ships anywhere close to any Ukrainian held coastline, apparently the missiles they used have a range of 300 km. The Russian sailors will all know what happened and will be dead keen on staying in port.
It doesn’t seem like a good thing to me, poor leadership, poor morale, poor discipline and heavy losses, then get drunk whilst on duty.
The number of tanks and other vehicles that seem to have driven off the sides of bridges, etc. points to a lot of drunken soldiers.
Question for anyone that’s been in the armed forces.
I’ve seen quite a lot of empty vodka bottles and so on seemingly consumed by Russia troops.
Is that common in other armed forces?
I've been out a long time, but when I served operational deployments were dry. If you were rotated out of 'immediate notice to move' to (say) ''8 hours notice to move' there was a strictly enforced 2 can rule and definitely no spirits. On immediate though, absolutely no alcohol and getting caught with it would have been a very serious disciplinary offence.
The number of tanks and other vehicles that seem to have driven off the sides of bridges, etc. points to a lot of drunken soldiers.
You could also argue that a 'wee accident', disabling a vehicle, and a long walk home to Russia is preferable to being attached by Ukrainians...
Am I right in thinking that UK mod establishments are also no smoking now (as in completely ie no smoking areas at all)? Obviously wouldn’t apply on operations though (I guess!).
Hearing about terrible food, poor morale and an incompetent officer corps makes me think of Sergei Eisenstein’s adaptation of the mutiny on the battleship Potemkin here.
Fans of Sergei Eisenstein and early 20th century filmmaking will be delighted to know that Battleship Potemkin is free to watch on YouTube.
I’ve seen quite a lot of empty vodka bottles and so on seemingly consumed by Russia troops.
I ill bet you 50p that the Ukrainians are equally hard on the liquor.
Is that common in other armed forces?
On exercise and on deployment, absolutely not. Like, "on a charge not". I know for a fact I would have been charged and likely kicked out if I had tried bringing alcohol to AFG and I was too tired or messed up on exercises to think about drinking.
Remember that the Russians are not a volunteer army like the UK or other western nations; they still use a lot of conscripts. They get paid poorly, they don't want to be there and that will reflect in how they act.
The British army has faults, but there is a pride and professionalism to it that is very hard to match. You may not agree with the reasons for being there, but when you are there, you are there for your friends, your platoon-mates and the job you do.
I ill bet you 50p that the Ukrainians are equally hard on the liquor.
No, I'd bet that the Ukrainian troops are pretty well disciplined when they are on combat duty. Off duty, I'd guess they drink pretty hard. The Russian troops seem to mostly be a drunken rabble.
Apparently Sweden and Finland did not heed Chewies advice.
Russia not happy.
Apparently Sweden and Finland did not heed Chewies advice.
Seem to be a bunch of Chinese people disagreeing with him too.
https://twitter.com/ThisIsWenhao/status/1514377303610073092
https://twitter.com/ThisIsWenhao/status/1514383095130116101
I’ve seen quite a lot of empty vodka bottles and so on seemingly consumed by Russia troops.
Is that common in other armed forces?
There's a good article linked a few pages back about the connection between alcohol and war crimes - either to fuel it or a coping mechanism.
Taiwan just got a little bit safer from Chinese imperialism.
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1514502020258050051
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1514502024150331402
The crucial difference is that Ukrainian soldiers are fighting for the existence of their territory and families. Russian soldiers aren’t.
Many years ago I was a junior Ops Officer in Gibraltar. We had a pair of Ukrainian Frigates (Old Soviet stock) in port and were invited aboard for a function.
My mate was the Fire Chief. He was shocked of the design of them. No compartmentalisation like on Western ships, so one hit below the waterline would sink the boat.
Without wanting to re-stir the pot, I think chewkw does have a point on those videos.
As the mouthpiece of the state, Russia Today (and loosely affiliated propaganda) can be worth listening to. Not for anything close to actual truth obviously, but to understand what the state would like the truth to be.
That said, there is the danger that giving these videos views, shares and interaction, even just to criticise them, has the consequence of pushing them up the algorithms and showing them to more people.
As Timothy Snyder says in his excellent "On Tyranny" :
"If we are serious about seeking the facts, we can each make a small revolution in the way the internet works. If you are verifying information yourself, you will not send fake news to others...
... If you retweet only the work of humans who have followed journalistic protocols, you are less likely to debase your brain interacting with bots and trolls"
As the mouthpiece of the state, Russia Today (and loosely affiliated propaganda) can be worth listening to. Not for anything close to actual truth obviously, but to understand what the state would like the truth to be.
Oh, I totally agree with that. But that’s not how Chewkw presented those videos, he did so without any context and apparently without having done any due-diligence on the individuals presenting their opinion. Had he framed his posts as “this is what Russian affiliated media are saying and it’s important because…” then he wouldn’t have struggled to answer questions that a lower-sixth form Media Studies student would’ve breezed through. Instead, he’s focussed on presenting an alternative viewpoint as though it’s a parallel “truth” for want of a better word and seems content to merely parrot the line from RT.
Yeah I did consider writing "I think chewkw does (accidentally) have a point" 😁
That said, there is the danger that giving these videos views, shares and interaction, even just to criticise them, has the consequence of pushing them up the algorithms and showing them to more people.
They're misinformation. The people making them and distributing them are not interested in getting to the truth, they are interested in obscuring the truth. Don't spread misinformation, no matter how fascinating it might be.
Yeah I did consider writing “I think chewkw does (accidentally) have a point” 😁
Exactly, the point is accidental. If he’d only done some due diligence he’d have presented his point effectively and would’ve avoided looking silly. I’m not exaggerating when I stated that questions like “what’s your view on Scott Ritter’s objectivity and judgement” wouldn’t have fazed a 17 year old A Level Media Studies student.
They’re misinformation. The people making them and distributing them are not interested in getting to the truth, they are interested in obscuring the truth.
Naturally, but Chewkw presented them “as is” in an apparently sincere attempt to present an “alternative” viewpoint. I’ll refrain from use of the term “edgelord” here, but you get my drift.
He made a point purely by accident - the RT affiliated media is trying to present a parallel reality that doesn’t exist.
It looks like Putin/Russia is losing big time judging by all the losses.
As I said in earlier thread one side must lose to end the war, perhaps it is a turning point that one side is losing now. How long can Putin/Russia continues?
It is interesting to see both sides are presented their views using various online materials, albeit, plenty of disagreement which is normal. Currently I am watching NBC News interviewing Putin from archive many years ago. Interesting.
As for my personal views on the war it seems like it is a "hit" or "miss" analysis, trying to "test" out my own theory is difficult as warfare has the tendency to be unpredictable. Nevertheless, the information provided by both sides is interesting.
An article in Forbes that hasn't aged well "The Russian Cruiser ‘Moskva’ Dominates The Black Sea" a useful description of its capabilities though, and what its loss will mean to the Russians. Putin will be apoplectic!
It is interesting to see both sides are presented their views using various online materials, albeit, plenty of disagreement which is normal.
Forgive me for having to explicitly say this, but presenting propaganda as fact (which you have) and then struggling to answer questions like “what are your thoughts on Scott Ritter’s objectivity and judgement” really aren’t “normal disagreement”. You’d have saved an awful lot of face with some critical thinking, instead flooding the thread with anecdotal opinion that happens to align with your worldview presented without context that wastes everyone’s time and does nothing to improve how people perceive your standing on this forum.
If you’re interested in historical perspective then I also recommend this series..
was Edgelord a lesser Tolkein character?
Don’t feed the trolls 🤷♂️
