I suspect the Ukrainians are being a bit more clever about how they use them and don’t just drive along a road through unsecured countryside or into the middle of a town without any infantry support.
I’m also curious as to whether somebody in the supply chain in Russia hasn’t pocketed the money for explosive armour and just sold the Russian army some blocks of plastic.
I don't see any advantage at all since they are just tanks regardless of how advance they can be. There is a reason why they have to drive through the town on the road. i.e. the ground might be too soft for the weight of the tanks. Both sides have drones so the same will happen to Ukraine's tanks too.
Rumours of military hardware approaching border with Finland. Surely he wouldn't?
This would surely trigger a NATO response even though the Finns are not in the club.
I don’t see any advantage at all since they are just tanks
How you use tanks is fundamental to how successful they are. Without infantry support they're really just sitting ducks, but with infantry support (ie some eyes and ears) you can avoid traps like drone overflight
Rumours of military hardware approaching border with Finland. Surely he wouldn’t?
This would surely trigger a NATO response even though the Finns are not in the club.
In theory, NATO rules mean it couldn't admit a member with an active conflict within its borders (eg Ukraine since 2014). In practice, I don't think this would be an obstacle in the present circumstances.
I imagine any Russian forces crossing into Finland would be reduced to scrap metal and ashes pretty quickly.
I imagine any Russian forces crossing into Finland would be reduced to scrap metal and ashes pretty quickly.
I'd hope so
Rumours of military hardware approaching border with Finland.
Source?
Its not an unusual event tbh, Russia and Finland share a 1300km+
The fact it's being reported(shunted out onto social media) is the more relevant part
Yup I posted it's common for them to do it across from Finland's border.
Have a read up on Finland's road building plans and the natural land defense areas.
Putin was on the other side of Russia today meeting his puppet Lukashenko
They where right on the china Russia border paranoid Putin
Actually, thinking about that again.
The other relevant part is that its coastal defence stuff, and not a convoy of Tanks/IFVs
not a convoy of Tanks/IFVs
It's probably all they have available, if the reports of the shambolic state of Russia's tank reserves are to be believed. Coastal defence is the only thing they're currently not doing in Ukraine.
How you use tanks is fundamental to how successful they are. Without infantry support they’re really just sitting ducks, but with infantry support (ie some eyes and ears) you can avoid traps like drone overflight
Yes, they would without infantry support. Hence, they have not much advantage over each other without infantry.
Rumours of military hardware approaching border with Finland.
Nothing on BBC or the guardian?
Finland is better staying out of the current situation because NATO cannot do anything openly or directly without triggering a nuclear war.
Keep adding fuel we all get burn.
It’s probably all they have available, if the reports of the shambolic state of Russia’s tank reserves are to be believed. Coastal defence is the only thing they’re currently not doing in Ukraine.
Cant really think of another reason tbh.
@chewkw - do you think Finland should just sit back and let Putin's murderous troops walk in and take over?
Or do you think that they have a right to defend themselves if attacked?
Imagine if Russia were to invade Finland? I don't think it will happen for one second but imagine...
You'd think Russia, more than most, would realize that fighting on two fronts is unlikely to have a good outcome.
Even if Putin could throw another invasion force together whilst fighting Ukraine, it would be a poorly motivated, poorly trained Soviet era military fighting a NATO aligned/ trained 21st century military. Fighting for its own land and people too. Finland's entire military exists for one purpose, to repel a potential Russian invasion. Other than intel, I doubt they would need much help from NATO!
It would be carnage and I'd expect huge Russian defections to Finland within days of the first shots being fired.
I think Putin is just moving imaginary armies around in his head and a few serviceable vehicles along the border with Finland. Look at how long it took him to build up forces around Ukraine and even then he couldn't supply them with enough fuel or food...
"Classic Putin."
shooterman
Full MemberI see Poland have no idea why anyone would think the sudden appearance of a large number of Ukranaian T72s in Eastern Ukraine would have anything to do with the “disappearance” of 100 such tanks from their inventory. 🙂
"Unfortunately sir, a shipment of 100 Baneblades had just gone out..."
Finland is better staying out of the current situation
Finland is a democracy. They are best off following policies that have the support of the people. That means joining NATO. Russia is a cripple, there's nothing they can do about it.
@chewkw – do you think Finland should just sit back and let Putin’s murderous troops walk in and take over?
Putin/Russia will Not walk in if Finland stays out of the current situation.
Putin/Russia Will NOT invade if Finland stays out.
There is NO advantage for Putin/Russia to open another front and he knows that.
Having said that if Finland disregard Putin/Russia objection, then yes they will get some retaliation. Probably just cruise missiles to distablise them to let Finland knows they mean business.
Or do you think that they have a right to defend themselves if attacked?
Of course Finland has the right but then why do they have to get involve? If Russia wanted to invade Finland they would have done so since the last Finland/Russia conflict.
Therefore, to say that Finland fears being invaded by Russia is merely a way to create provocation.
Finland is a democracy. They are best off following policies that have the support of the people. That means joining NATO. Russia is a cripple, there’s nothing they can do about it.
No point having a democracy if they get involve and have to live in fear. It has nothing to do with democracy nor sovereign state. Existential threat is enough to get all to war.
You’d think Russia, more than most, would realize that fighting on two fronts is unlikely to have a good outcome.
Think about it. What can Putin/Russia use to fight two fronts without having to involve more tanks etc? With such small population in Finland and vast land they could be used as the "testing" ground for nuke. Hence, Finland would be silly to end up in that position. Yes, all hell will break loose but that's how it works if Finland was to act without thinking.
then yes they will get some retaliation. Probably just cruise missiles to distablise them to let Finland knows they mean business.
Utter tosh. The best Putin will muster is a few Bears flying near their airspace and some activity near their border.
Which is what happens anyway. Toothless posturing.
All the posturing will do is drive Finland more towards NATO membership.
why do they have to get involve?
Joining NATO is not getting involved. The reason they want to join NATO is because of Russia's history of violence against its neighbours. Russia will not launch cruise missiles at a NATO member. Joining NATO is Finland and Sweden's best options for not getting involved in Russia's violence.
Also, unless you are Finnish or Swedish, it's none of your business what they do.
Utter tosh. The best Putin will muster is a few Bears flying near their airspace and some activity near their border.
Which is what happens anyway. Toothless posturing.
All the posturing will do is drive Finland more towards NATO membership.
Go for it join the NATO membership. Test the theory out but try not regret the outcome.
Adding fuel to fire does not solve the current situation.
Also, unless you are Finnish or Swedish, it’s none of your business what they do.
In that case test theory by joining but try not to regret it later. Yes, it is none of my business but so many people in the world are also concerned because they do not want to get burn in a nuclear war.
You know none of you are going to get anything but obfuscation and deflection out of that exchange right?
You know none of you are going to get anything but obfuscation and deflection out of that exchange right?
Yes, I agree. I "unknowingly" got sucked in. It's like kids on the playground daring each others and exchanging comments.
I think people have read something into chewkw's initial post that wasn't there. He wasn't talking about a Russian invasion, he was talking about Finland getting involved.
I disagree with most of his views, but focus on the ball, not the player.
it is none of my business but so many people in the world are also concerned because they do not want to get burn in a nuclear war.
Putin is losing badly in Ukraine. He hasn't resorted to nuclear weapons there. He's not going to nuke Finland if he hasn't nuked Ukraine. The reality of it is that Putin has shown all of Russia's neighbours that NATO membership is the only way they can be safe from Russian violence. If Putin doesn't want countries to join NATO, he should offer them something other than violence and corruption.
I think it's a given now they will join NATO (Finland) a joint navel base around that area would be very important. The talks with Austria went badly by all accounts basically we are cracking on tough titty.
No body wants this but it's being pushed onto them by Putin's actions.
Putin's actions now can only be
1.draw in Lukashenko to attack Ukraine and maybe spill into Poland and blame it entirely on Lukashenko.
2. Take the Donbas kill all the Ukraine population or move it to Siberia and fill the area with a pro Russian population.
3. Get shot in the head.
No, to Chew, applying to join NATO is getting involved. We must all bow down to Putins wishes.
... he was talking about Finland getting involved.
That's correct.
The whole notion of Finland talking about joining NATO sounds like Finland is "inviting a fight" with Russia. Wrong decision Finland!
No, to Chew, applying to join NATO is getting involved. We must all bow down to Putins wishes.
That's exactly how it is when nuclear power is the neighbour.
He wasn’t talking about a Russian invasion, he was talking about Finland getting involved.
The only way Finland will get involved is if Russia invades Finland.
The whole notion of Finland talking about joining NATO sounds like Finland is “inviting a fight” with Russia.
Utter nonsense. NATO didn't invade Ukraine, Russia did. The only country that started fights was Russia.
The whole notion of Finland talking about joining NATO sounds like Finland is “inviting a fight” with Russia.
No it sounds like a sensible response if you have an extremely aggressive neighbour who has been involved in multiple attempts to destablise neighbouring countries which has culminated in the full invasion of one of them.
That Russia's response is threats rather than positive gestures does support why they might be looking to join NATO
Go for it join the NATO membership. Test the theory out but try not regret the outcome.
Adding fuel to fire does not solve the current situation.
How would you solve it, other than suggesting every country in Europe capitulates whenever Putin threatens them over any perceived transgression?
The "fire" you persistently refer to is of Putin's making and he is the only one fanning the embers.
The best Putin will muster is a few Bears flying near their airspace and some activity near their border.
Putin has already had nuclear-armed planes crossing into Finnish airspace.
The only way Finland will get involved is if Russia invades Finland.
Therefore, it is a case of "eye ball to eye ball" with so much posturing isn't it?
One wrong move from Finland will mean further escalation.
The question I always asked myself since the start of 2014 now 2022 Russia/Ukraine war/conflict whatever, is whether such escalation will result in the world seeing the first nuclear weapon being used. Which country is the most unfortunate to receive such destruction. Personally, I don't think it will be Ukraine but nation with smaller population and relatively large land mass. Think about it.
Therefore, it is a case of “eye ball to eye ball” with so much posturing isn’t it?
One wrong move from Finland will mean further escalation.
Ok, I'm getting a little exasperated here so this'll be the last time I engage with you for a day or so as it's complete Groundhog Day...
There is only one country currently invading another whilst threatening others on its border. That is escalation by any definition you might wish to choose.
That country is Russia, repeat after me, Russia.
(Sigh... I know I'm talking into the abyss.)
The question I always asked myself since the start of 2014 now 2022 Russia/Ukraine war/conflict whatever, is whether such escalation will result in the world seeing the first nuclear weapon being used.
LOL.
There is only one country currently invading another whilst threatening others on its border. That is escalation by any definition you might wish to choose.
That country is Russia, repeat after me, Russia.
Putin/Russia does not recognise that line of argument hence Ukraine got into this mess. Yes, Russia started using force, yes, Ukraine got the rights to defend themselves, yes, Putin/Russia is the baddies etc but this has nothing to do with democracy nor sovereign state at all.
Most simply cannot accept we live in a multipolar power world. To get to a unipolar world, which most are arguing now, one country will needs to dominates the rest like USA. The problem is getting there means death and destruction; and we are heading straight into that direction. The question is whether you like sooner or later.
Personally, I don’t think it will be Ukraine but nation with smaller population and relatively large land mass. Think about it.
@chewkw - whatever you're smoking just stop, it's very bad for you. They won't nuke Mongolia !
@chewkw – whatever you’re smoking just stop, it’s very bad for you. They won’t nuke Mongolia !
Give me your rational, Why not?
I am not advocating nuking Finland but the possibility is there based on the points below.
Smaller nation/population easy to subdue.
Large land mass means the population will not be totally destroyed.
"Less" life loss means "less" retaliation.
Easy to distabilise
etc.
OK, I tried to be fair to him. As you were....
OK, I tried to be fair to him. As you were….
All you going to get it multiple pages of people being wound up and the conversation taken away from Russias invasion of Ukraine.
Can anyone tell me, has Ukraine actually acknowledged those 100 T72's that have migrated (due to global warming) to the east?
Smaller nation/population easy to subdue.
This comment is where you show the world how poorly informed you are. Your vexatious ramblings do not make your opinions correct, they simply reveal how silly you can be. Some have given you credit for adding some interesting insights in this discussion but you're just reverting to type now and behaving the way you often behave on these threads.
whether such escalation will result in the world seeing the first nuclear weapon being used.
Errr... that will have been 77 years ago.
This comment is where you show the world how poorly informed you are. Your vexatious ramblings do not make your opinions correct, they simply reveal how silly you can be. Some have given you credit for adding some interesting insights in this discussion but you’re just reverting to type now and behaving the way you often behave on these threads.
I said " ... possibility ..." based on those points, whether it will happen or not nobody knows.
As we all know it is very difficult to invade another nation but that does not mean some will not try. The question is what sort of outcome will there be for Finland if they get involve?
Errr… that will have been 77 years ago.
Dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
