I think all BillMC is saying…
I wish that was what he meant. But past posts suggest it isn’t. But the vague insinuations make discussion hard, don’t they.
Don’t believe everything you read.
Ah right, I understand.
Don’t believe everything you read.
Yep, some of the Russian propaganda is hard to believe. So, the war is over sharing recipes or something?
https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1512395642999611393
What? If you have a point make it. Dont weasle around, actually state it clearly and without vague gestures.
Having read that, I still do not know what point you are trying to make. There is nothing unknown in there. No one denies issues in Ukraine, including more recently than that 2019 report.
Furthermore, the worst thing in that article is actually the shoot down of a passenger jet by (according to the Dutch investigation) likely Russian/Russian backed military.
Finally, that concerns raised by that article, published before yet another and particularly brutal invasion of Ukraine by Russia absolutely pales into insignificance in comparison to what is happening now.
Okay read a chunk of that. Ukraine is not filled with angels.
Still, they haven't started this war.
Also, EU membership would require many of the issues mentioned to be addressed.
What actually is your point?
Lol, jinx
Different agendas:
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/ukraine/blockquote >
Sure, just about every country has got an entry of some description on that list. Here's one for Russia: https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/russia#
Your point is?
Sure, just about every country has got an entry of some description on that list.
Indeed. The first sentence of the UK entry is:
"The UK government pursues laws and policies with little regard for their impact on human rights.".
'Just about every country..' is the defining characteristic of whataboutery. Stop the war and do some diplomacy.
Do you have any proposals to stop the war?
Not my job mate but certainly no more bombs. As is frequently said, wars always end with discussions, why not start with them?
@BillMC I think you are engaging in whataboutery. You're saying 'yeah but what about Ukraine's bad behaviour?' and we're asking you to explain exactly what you are on about because it's not clear. Are you saying that Ukraine is partly responsible for this? Or that the Russians have some justification? If you have a view you need to be explicit.
Or if you are saying the war needs to stop and people need to talk - yes, we all agree the war needs to be stopped. All except Putin, who wants to continue.
EDIT
Not my job mate but certainly no more bombs.
Yes please, this is what EVERYONE wants except Putin. Are you suggesting that if Ukraine stopped fighting then the Russians would too? It's possible, it was possible at the start. Would that have been preferable? Serious question.
Russia prepares the ground for peace talks
https://twitter.com/LucasFoxNews/status/1512487913426386946?s=20&t=6bguNwqPo57hZt6fmKFL5A
Admittedly the above many not be true, anyone able to verify that ...... FOX ...... reporter
I read somewhere every year the Russians call up 140,000 youths for military service.
That's conscription, the tweet is referring to reservist
A conscript that doesnt sign up proper with a contract allegedly cant be sent out of Russia.
Reservists can.
Molgrips, I was politely responding to someone who questioned whether Ukraine was a country sadly riven by divisions: wealth, politically, ethnically, language, religion, gender, geography. Life would be a lot simpler if it wasn't like that. Nothing to do with whataboutery, it just ain't black and white.
it just ain’t black and white.
I'm all for examining both sides, but as far as this war is concerned I think we can lay the blame with one guy and his power trip. Whatever Ukraine's domestic problems I don't think Putin's actions have any merit at all.
it just ain’t black and white.
How are you managing to be on the wrong side with this? It is literally the most obvious, cut and dried, even a child can see it from a mile off thing that has happened for a looooong time
Quite a lot has been written about how this agenda was developed by forces outside. Whilst I think Putin is a complete C..., it's not just down to his mental sickness/malevolence.
Lots of countries are divided. This country for one, the US for another, France, Hungary, could probably go on. That does not, however, justify a massive and disastrous military invasion. It did not in Iraq and it doesn’t here.
Finland to join NATO and now Ukraine to join EU
Putins invasion massively backfiring
https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1512488459667382273?t=QV_rc0ID_ZVyydjHslHUNw&s=19
https://twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1512497774578778114?t=LUkAVA5xiQ5FPcsxetPmYA&s=19
I guess for Finland now is actually a good time whilst Russia is stretched already
Quite a lot has been written about how this agenda was developed by forces outside.
Can you define the agenda you are referring to and provide a source.
And to think not that long ago people were saying NATO is redundant - and now countries are queuing up to join, defence spending is rocketing and it will be pushed right up to Russia’s Northern border, within a very short distance of mad Vlad’s birthplace. Still, all going according to plan…
I see you are today's rota'd in "war in Ukraine it's all the fault of the West" forum member Bill.😉
piemonster
Free Member
I guess for Finland now is actually a good time whilst Russia is stretched already
Yeah, a good way to think of it I suppose. Get Under NATO's umbrella before things eventually calm down and Putin "does a Ukraine" on them too, to "denazify" them. For their own good I'm sure.
Which would all be NATO's fault of course. Ahem.
Not sure whoever suggested that. The situation is complex and for some that presents a challenge.
Read that, it's ok. But largely he ignores the right of Ukraine to choose it's own path. On top of that, theres as much pushing by Russian foreign policy than anything else.
Theres's a direct ounter argument article here
https://www.dailycardinal.com/article/2022/04/john-mearsheimer-is-wrong-about-the-crisis-in-ukraine
I've not been able to pick through this for obvious errors.
Once one can get past the natural emotionally charged reaction that might come from reading such a headline, the realist professor from the University of Chicago makes an argument that seems to make sense on the surface, but fails to uphold further scrutiny.
Do you have another source? (Different author)
To be honest, it’s not really that complex - and Putin quite significantly simplified it on Feb 24th.
BillMC
Full Member
Not sure whoever suggested that. The situation is complex and for some that presents a challenge.
Complex is not the same as having a position simply defined by attempting to muddy the waters. People can find that hard to relate to.
Yep, my position, just to clarify, is Stop the War (not bomb the shit out of anybody. Hope that's clear.)
Whoah whoah whoah.
From The New Yorker article:
When you’re a country like Ukraine and you live next door to a great power like Russia, you have to pay careful attention to what the Russians think, because if you take a stick and you poke them in the eye, they’re going to retaliate
Talk about victim blaming! That's like blaming women for getting raped. Only one man gave the order to invade, and he wasn't even cornered. He wasn't under any pressure at all.
Yes, having read all that. Essentially, what he is saying is that Ukraine has no right to decide its future in case it upsets Russia. A bit like chewie’s argument really.
Okay read a chunk of that. Ukraine is not filled with angels.
Still, they haven’t started this war.
Regardless of who started the war it is history now.
Russia will not accept Ukraine becoming a NATO member and even attempts to think about it post an existential threats to Russia.
Do you have any proposals to stop the war?
To stop the war Ukraine needs to give in to Russia's demand. That will stop the war. Ukraine has no say in the matter unless they want to turn into a permanent failed state or wasteland. That's what Russia is doing to them now. Russia will not stop until they take control of Ukraine. Many people will die on both sides ... If Russia really wants to expand they would have taken actions against Estonia and Latvia but they did not.
I guess for Finland now is actually a good time whilst Russia is stretched already
Adding fuel to fire? We all get burn. Finland will be foolish to join at this moment. Give it a try and see how Russia will react. Yes, Russia is on the losing end (NATO is winning remember?) but give it a try anyway to see their reaction.
But largely he ignores the right of Ukraine to choose it’s own path.
Ukraine can only choose to be neutral. Joining NATO will only lead to destruction.
Stop the War
We all want that.
But how?
If your answer is to empty Ukraine, will you be saying the same no matter which country Russia troops are moved into? Where does everyone back up to? This side of the Elbe?
Russia will not accept Ukraine becoming a NATO member and even attempts to think about it post an existential threats to Russia.
No, NATO is a threat only as regards Putin's desire to expand the RF by force. Countries joining NATO makes it harder for him to send the troops into those countries. Which is why more countries are now considering joining NATO.
chewkw you keep rolling out the same thing over and over again,
Russia won't stand for Ukraine joining NATO...
Now they have said they won't. But what do you think will happen if they join the EU?
No, NATO is a threat only as regards Putin’s desire to expand the RF by force. Countries joining NATO makes it harder for him to send the troops into those countries. Which is why more countries are now considering joining NATO.
Yes, Russia will use force to subdue those countries (trying to join NATO) they perceived as existential threats to them. They see it from their perspective ONLY, while the worldview is irrelevant. They have objected to countries on their borders joining NATO with plenty of objections but that just fell into deaf ears. The only way to stop now is Ukraine to give in or escalate the war to the next level. Russia will not stop until Ukraine is under their control.
chewkw you keep rolling out the same thing over and over again,
Yes, because that is the Russian demand over and over again but NATO/USA just ignores them.
Russia won’t stand for Ukraine joining NATO, which they won’t. But what do you think will happen if they join the EU?
That depends on whether the condition includes potential NATO membership.
those countries (trying to join NATO) they perceived as existential threats to them
Existential threats? You mean countries taking measures to stop Russia invading them?
"That depends on whether the condition includes potential NATO membership"
So if they join the EU but not NATO, the Russians will withdraw? Or then are the Russian's at war with an EU member state and by default effectively NATO?
Existential threats? You mean countries taking measures to stop Russia invading them?
Yes, Russia will invade or retaliate if they define them as existential threats. It is Russia that defines existential threats Not others.
So if they join the EU but not NATO, the Russians will withdraw? Or then are the Russian’s at war with an EU member state and by default effectively NATO?
I don't think the Russia will accept them in the case of Ukraine. No NATO or EU membership. The latter I think has to do with resources being controlled by EU (something like that but I can only remember vaguely the arguments at the moment).
Yes, because that is the Russian demand over and over again but NATO/USA just ignores them.
I have to break self imposed embargo to ask please illustrate.
Go on, no right or wrong answers but what is your view, why do you have this view and what citations can you provide to demonstrate the method behind your thinking? Would you please expand upon your take on your apparent assertion that NATO has somehow caused Russia to invade Ukraine?
Yes, Russia will invade or retaliate if they define them as existential threats. It is Russia that define existential threats Not others.
Safe to assume that in Putin's eyes NATO is an existential threat (as well as his own population, shadow etc etc.)... yet he hasn't invaded a nato member.
Fair to say I think I see Finland's (amongst others) logic here, simplest venn diagram ever.
The key is to become a member before Putin decides to "de-nazify" you... Hence Finland might be in a bit of a rush.
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