Lavrov is obviously out and about so I wonder at what point he gets arrested as he attends meetings etc.. then, will Putin ever appear outside of Russia again.
67% of the people in that town speak Russian. Odd that.
What proportion of the Irish speak English as a first language? Should we bomb them?
BillMC
Full Member
67% of the people in that town speak Russian. Odd that.
thats about the same as Mariupol
and it now looks like this
https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1512078204789411848
If youre trying to insinuate some sort of putinesque conspiracy bollocks that I think you need to have a word with yourself
No, just odd. And don't forget, 'the first casualty of war' etc etc, we need to question everything.
Odd as in entirely typical of the region?
BillMC
Full Member
No, just odd
odd, in what way?
what part of Putin launching a war thats killed 1000s suddenly seems odd because its hitting a majority russian speaking area, considering that hes already obliiterated towns and villages and slaughtered civilians in other russian speaking areas?
I dont understand why that proportion of Russian speakers in that location is odd.
No, just odd.
Not odd at all. History has scattered languages across borders all over Europe. Should that form part of an argument for redrawing borders, or removing/diminishing them, or even creating new ones? Maybe. Should it be used to excuse the bombing of a train station, or a whole city? I hope that question is rhetorical.
I think all BillMC is saying that perhaps it might be seen at as a little odd (ironic even?) that Russia is targeting a predominantly Russian speaking area considering the Kremlin says Russia is liberating pro-Russian Ukranians from Neo-Nazis.
Of course we know the fact is they just want to flatten everything.
a lot of pro russian trolls saying that Russia doesnt use Tochka missles
even though theyve been shppingthem down from belarus for a while
this just 4 das agao
https://twitter.com/MotolkoHelp/status/1500144102150651906
The whole of eastern Ukraine is majority Russian speaking. The country itself is near as damn it 50/50. Being a russophone Ukrainian doesn't mean you're aligned to Russia.
I think all BillMC is saying...
I wish that was what he meant. But past posts suggest it isn't. But the vague insinuations make discussion hard, don't they.
I think all BillMC is saying that perhaps it might be seen at as a little odd (ironic even?) that Russia is targeting a predominantly Russian speaking area considering the Kremlin says Russia is liberating pro-Russian Ukranians from Neo-Nazis.
That's not how it came across to me. Maybe he could clarify what he thinks is odd about it.
a lot of pro russian trolls saying that Russia doesnt use Tochka missles
even though theyve been shppingthem down from belarus for a while
Yep, pro Russian trolling all over the place.
Not at all, it's just better to not adopt an unquestioning approach. A critical reading of reports reveals many allusions, conflations and hypothetical constructs and that must raise questions. On the other hand, people might choose to believe what they want to believe. It is a long way away and it is impressive the amount of knowledge and certainty that some people seem to have.
Any chance you could just say clearly what you mean?
Nope
Don't believe everything you read.
The country itself is near as damn it 50/50. Being a russophone Ukrainian doesn’t mean you’re aligned to Russia.
I have a friend (I do honestly I have one) who actually switched from Russian after 2014. Now he could switch easily as he is fluent in both Ukraine and Russian but for most of his adult life had spoken Russian even though he has never been aligned with Russia.
It is a long way away and it is impressive the amount of knowledge and certainty that some people seem to have.
Here's what we can be really certain of. Russia fired some missiles at Ukraine and killed a whole bunch of innocent civilians. Now they are lying about it. This is the same pattern that we've been seeing right from the start.
Don’t believe everything you read.
No one does.
Now, what were you suggesting with this...?
67% of the people in that town speak Russian. Odd that
Don’t believe everything you read.
Well I didnt believe the proportion of Russian speakers in that location was odd so I'm already ahead of the curve.
My son speaks Russian. He learned as part of his Duke of Ed award.
25% of my household, therefore, speaks Russian.
Well Bill, what does that tell you?
Not at all, it’s just better to not adopt an unquestioning approach. A critical reading of reports reveals many allusions, conflations and hypothetical constructs and that must raise questions. On the other hand, people might choose to believe what they want to believe. It is a long way away and it is impressive the amount of knowledge and certainty that some people seem to have
This is true but I still don't know what your 'odd' comment is about. It's not in the least bit odd when you consider the history of the Soviet Union and Europe in general.
Not at all, it’s just better to not adopt an unquestioning approach. A critical reading of reports reveals many allusions, conflations and hypothetical constructs and that must raise questions. On the other hand, people might choose to believe what they want to believe. It is a long way away and it is impressive the amount of knowledge and certainty that some people seem to have.
is close to what you see on right wing US sites about not believing mainstream media. People like I dunno, Lyse Doucete who are presumably reporting what the government or some shadowy neo liberal conspirators want you to believe.
It's not only disingenuous and stupid, I find it disgusting.
Question everything sure but we need to agree on some facts and principles: Russia has invaded Ukraine and is killing civilians, russian and ukranian speakers (with my distant o level russian I frankly can't tell the difference tbh, they're very similar languages). Meanwhile the russian state is promulgating and sponsoring lies and disinformation about this, which I really don't want to see repeated on here as trumpian 'hey I'm just asking questions' when it's clear what point's being made. In this case that ukraine has bombed those folks as a false flag operation. That's what BillMC is promulgating.
It’s not only disingenuous and stupid, I find it disgusting.
Yep. It's basically a strategy that when facts are against you, you just deny that there are any facts.
I was looking at a BBC headline about this ghastly attack. It said people were fleeing after Russian attacks and that officials had made an accusation that it was a deliberate Russian attack. It did not state that the attack was from Russia but obviously the allusion was made. Stop the War I say. Incidentally I was under ther impression the Soviet Union ended in 1991.
I was looking at a BBC headline about this ghastly attack. It said people were fleeing after Russian attacks and that officials had made an accusation that it was a deliberate Russian attack. It did not state that the attack was from Russia but obviously the allusion was made. Stop the War I say. Incidentally I was under ther impression the Soviet Union ended in 1991.
The 'I'm very confused' defence?
Sorry, I'm really struggling to understand your point.
No idea at all about the "incidentally" bit either, I assume was prompted by Molgrips but shows no actual meaning.
Stop the War
I'm not aware of anyone here that wants it, it's an irrelevance unfortunately.
it’s just better to not adopt an unquestioning approach. A critical reading of reports reveals many allusions, conflations and hypothetical constructs and that must raise questions. On the other hand, people might choose to believe what they want to believe.
Do your own 'research'? If I didn't know better, I'd think just read that on some David Icke/flat earth/Qanon believer's facebook page.
Campists gonna camp.
The point about the BBC headline is that it did not state an established fact but people would read it as such. There's all sorts of agendas running in Ukraine sadly, it's just not simply goodies vs baddies.
Stop the War I say
That's up to the guy who started it and is carrying out genocide on Ukrainian civilians, Vlad Putin. The only way the genocide is going to stop is that Russia is defeated.
Incidentally I was under ther impression the Soviet Union ended in 1991.
you're correct, it did. That's why Molgrips mentioned the word history.
What were we supposed to "read" into...
67% of the people in that town speak Russian. Odd that.
Please finish off your point, if you have one.
If you are suggesting that Russia is unlikely to bomb an area because speaking Russian there is prevalent, then that proposition is sadly very easily debunked and dismissed.
Stop the War I say
Agreed. That's the easy bit we can all agree on, I hope. Now... how?
There’s all sorts of agendas running in Ukraine sadly, it’s just not simply goodies vs baddies.
In this instance I think it is. Are you seriously suggesting it was anyone other than Russia who did this? If you are, who and why?
The point about the BBC headline is that it did not state an established fact but people would read it as such.
Here is the BBC headline (and subhead) in question:
Dozens dead after Ukraine railway station hit by rockets
Thousands of people were at the station in Kramatorsk trying to flee Russian attacks, say Ukrainian officials, who accuse Moscow of a deliberate strike
The critical reader will note that it does actually state an established fact. Many facts. It states that dozens are dead, that the train station was hit by rockets, that thousands of people were there. It also gives quotes, which are clearly attributed.
It does not quote a Kremlin official, but the Kremlin line has changed several times already today, so who knows what the **** it is by now.
It does not quote a Kremlin official, but the Kremlin line has changed several times already today, so who knows what the **** it is by now.
"It's NATO's fault," is their standard fallback.
BillMC : There’s all sorts of agendas running in Ukraine sadly, it’s just not simply goodies vs baddies.
Utter rollocks.
Russia invaded an indépendant country, anything else is whataboutism
Current claim reported on RT is that the rocket was launched from Dobropole. Wise to assume that's a lie. As is the idea that Putin is trying to free Russian speaking people. Remember...
Don’t believe everything you read.
Re the Russian bodies.
If Russia had agreed to a (real) seize fire to withdraw safely, then they’d have had more options as regards their own dead.
This is true but I think the Russian military is guilty of judging others by its own standards. ie call a cease then let loose when folks guard is down.
