Back on topic, I knew the Russians were the “bad guys” in this, but I never suspected they’d go full attempted genocide.
It's de-Nazification apparently.
Su-35 downed, pilot survived.
https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1510590517280714762?s=20&t=rpOoi0YLczcDoNOBO6ikIA
A Ukrainian farmer will be along to tow it away shortly.
Interesting to see though that some are using the execution and torture of civilians as a debating tactic on an Internet forum. It’s a very classy look.
Wow. A' debating tactic'? This is a thread about the war in Ukraine. Why wouldn't such a significant emerging factor be discussed on here? I don't see anyone using it as a 'tactic'.
I really don't know where the world will go in relation to taking to Russia now
Busha a place we have probably never heard of is reporting some horrid truly horrid things being done.
It cannot be rouge soldiers now just a nations army running amuck and brutality killing and raping.
They have stolen 400 odd jumbo jets.
I've always called it Putin's war on here as the population are admittedly behind a digital wall.
But honestly they now know what's going on in there countrys name now. it's not just some stranger in a far flung part of the world it's there brothers and sisters.
Yes it's hard to stand up to Putin's thugs but they know who the bad guy is here.
Ukraine re took pripyat and the reactors today I wonder how many radioactive Russian conscripted soldiers they will find dead and left
This is on such a widespread scale, that there is no way senior officers weren't aware and complicit. It's so brazen it can only be officially sanctioned policy. If this is what has been discovered in the areas the Russians hastily vacated - what is happening on the ground in the areas this still occupy, where they have time to cover stuff up?
I really don't know how Russia as a nation can ever be accepted back into any kind of normal relationship with the rest of the world after this.
https://twitter.com/blondynaradka/status/1510573209313333251?s=20&t=usbqv_3JR80n9WRUMYknXA
None hopefully as that would mean they had been incredibly stupid in accessing restricted areas, or there has been a leak as yet unreported
Chernobyl is the worry. If Pootin really gets upset, or even some of his generals they could launch an artillery strike on the sarcophagus that encapsulates the melt down.
As im not actually a scientist i dont know what would happen but i suspect bad things. I think if the wind was blowing a northerly then a cloud of radioactive debris cpuld cover a section of Ukraine making it impossible to grow crops for a few years.
As to what more can NATO do, not alot without boots on the ground. More, newer, high tech weapons are necessary but require traind personnel. Bussing select groups into poland for intensive training is probably achievable and hard to stop.
Turn Moldova into a forward operating base also do able but is probably a step too far.
I would like to see the black sea fleet on the bottom of the sea though. dunno if starstreak can be used as antiship or its not powerful enough.
And some of those thugs in Moscow can be petrol bombed as well coz they are proper tossers arresting people with blank peices of paper
the twitter site for the Kremlin is rightfully getting dogs abuse. Its not posted since the 15th of March.
Wow. A’ debating tactic’? This is a thread about the war in Ukraine. Why wouldn’t such a significant emerging factor be discussed on here?
Because it's obviously a tactic to blame the atrocities on Russia instead of NATO. And it also avoids the Ukrainian responsibility for the outrageous price of fish and chips.
Reddit is full of videos of young Russians celebrating the actions of their soldiers and calling for these actions in Ukraine. The society is sick to the core. Yes 10k protested and they're a brave minority but they are a tiny minority.
10k protestors. How many "young Russians"?
They have stolen 400 odd jumbo jets.
Eh?
@slowoldman "Stolen Jumbos" are leased and the payments have dried up iirc.
Eh?
My understanding of it, is that the jets in Russia/question that belong to western owners (as they are leased) are now effectively confiscated. However, the parts for those jets can no longer be sourced. And no one is going to lease Russia any more as they’re thieves.
I believe they’d be able to keep them flying for a time within Russian airspace, but with increasingly poor condition. Outside Russian airspace I think, they are no longer certified to fly.
One of those situations where Putin was banking on western companies/governments not being willing to take the loss.
https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-steal-billion-lease-aircraft-eu/
@ singletrackmind
There are soldiers in hospital with radiation sickness after digging up the forbidden area around the red Forrest reports one had died.
Tank dust and fox holes uncovering top soil
had been incredibly stupid in accessing restricted areas
Soldiers got a big dose digging trenches in radioactive soil aparently.
Putin's mate, Orban re-elected I see.
Hungary is heading in a very bad direction. You would think it would look at Ukraine and have a good, hard think about its future... but nope.
I despair of people sometimes.
Putin’s mate, Orban re-elected I see.
Is that good or bad for the price of fish and chips?
Looking at the headlines across the European and UK press this morning I'm wondering how long it will be before anyone can no longer justify not taking direct action against the Russian forces. Having pictures of slaughtered people lying in the street on the front pages is really extreme. Note I DO NOT want a full-on war as that leads down some properly scary paths but it does look like Putin is completely uncontrollable and is deliberately pushing the limits of our tolerance.
At what point does the rest of the world snap?
I’m wondering how long it will be before anyone can no longer justify not taking direct action against the Russian forces.
Biden has made it clear that he's not going to commit U.S. forces. NATO is not going to join in without U.S. backing.
It's also clear that Ukraine has the manpower, leadership, and training to bet the Russians. They need equipment. Whether NATO will provide the gear they need to go on the offensive is the big question. Dislodging Russians from well dug in positions will be a different thing than ambushing their convoys out in the countryside.
Ideally since Odessa is now heading towards the same point as Mariupol, some hips need to mysteriously sink in the sea of Azov...
I have a feeling he's not going to be much impressed with moaning about the price of fish and chips either.
https://twitter.com/DmytroGurinMP/status/1510681969859993605
I have a feeling he’s not going to be much impressed with moaning about the price of fish and chips either.
We all know the fish and chips thing was a daft thing to post, but it's time to move on maybe?
I think there is a case for never letting him forget that statement.
If you can "own with bombers" or discuss a sausage/lawn interface then dragging that coffin out might put the poster back in their kennel slightly when they start to veer too far beyond the pale. It sets the tone of their mindset
If badger can be subjected to tubeless japery indefinitely then I think it's fair this can run on
As it's the 40th anniversary of the Falklands I'm listening to Max Hastings' "Battle for the Falklands" as an audio-book. The appendices look at the political failures that lead to war, and include (but not limited to) A complete failure by the UK govt to properly negotiate a settlement regarding the Falkland Islands with Argentina from the 1960s onwards, a lack of understanding regarding Argentine claims to them, and a lack of proper conversation with the people in the Falklands regarding either their future,or their self determination. A total failure of intelligence on both sides immediately prior, during and after the conflict. From the Argentinians; a complete failure to understand the needs or rights of the inhabitants, a complete misunderstanding of the reaction of the UK govt. From the US, a totally dysfunctional relationship between the State dept of the President's office in the white house, a lack of proper policy, and no clear understanding of what they wanted or were trying to achieve. In the words of one US state official; "we upset everyone from the belligerents, ourselves and the UN, we pleased no one, helped no one, and settled nothing." and like most of these sorts of limited wars, the end state is more or less identical to the status quo anti-bellum, and hasn't been and isn't being resolved.
I can't help think that since the utter failure of these three otherwise functioning (mostly) democratic states was this very limited war, that still managed to cost billions and killed certainly hundreds of servicemen, that no lessons have been learned and nothing has changed, and the outcome of this conflict isn't going to change anything or alter anyone's state of mind in either Russia or Ukraine about the status of Ukraine.
What a waste
Not sure Badger is worth mentioning, it would probably Backfire and I just can't Bear it anymore.
With Russia's denial of the genocidal findings outside Kiev can they get some neutral observer's involved, maybe Hungarians and the Chinese.
three otherwise functioning (mostly) democratic states
The Galtieri regime in Argentina was a military dictatorship. There may be parallels between his approach then and that of Putin now, but a different overall approach to governing.
but a different overall approach to governing.
Yes, hence my comment about them being "mostly". The point I took from Hasting's conversations with military leaders, governments, diplomats, UN officials and so on, from top to bottom, was that they managed to get into a shooting war which neither side wanted or expected over a dispute that could've been resolved in maybe 10 mins of properly honest discussion, and even despite that war, hasn't yet been resolved to anybody's satisfaction 40 years later.
they managed to get into a shooting war which neither side wanted or expected over a dispute that could’ve been resolved in maybe 10 mins of properly honest discussion, and even despite that war, hasn’t yet been resolved to anybody’s satisfaction 40 years later.
Both sides buried soldiers there. Their families will not accept any deal acceptable to the other side. For both sides it's easiest to just wait until anyone with direct memory of it is dead. Pretty good chance that's how the Ukraine this is going to end too - decades of resentment, but a hundred times more bitter.
https://twitter.com/francska1/status/1510898225640792068
https://twitter.com/francska1/status/1510899006414761984
Jeez, that op-ed is effectively an open admission for justifying war crimes and genocide. Truly horrific.
De-nazification by out-nazi-ing the incumbent "Nazis"? It's an interesting play, I'm not sure it'll come off.
Yes, hence my comment about them being “mostly”.
Well I suppose 2 out of three could be called "mostly" democracies:/
but gave you the benefit of being anonymous so you didn’t look such a clot.
The people I was talking about are the extended family of a close work colleague. Some of them are now in the UK (thank god!) after fleeing Kyiv. They've left everything behind apart from what they could carry. Some of them had to stay behind because men under 60 aren't allowed to leave. Families have been split, and an entire lifetime's worth of posessions etc left behind. So yeah, I'm quite comfortable passing on their views here even if they don't fit the STW good vs evil narrative. Everything I've said about this war is based on the things I hear from them via my mate at work, and I've far more reason to listen to them than a few cosseted STW forumites talking nonsense from the safety of their armchairs.
BTW, WTF is the fish and chips thing??
lots of white fish is imported from Russia - it ends up in fish & chips, hence price rises
It was a silly thing to moan about
BTW, WTF is the fish and chips thing??
Chewkw used the clumsy example of the rocketing price of fish and chips to illustrate the effects of sanctions etc. on the West. I disagree with a lot of what he posts and that particular one did appear crass in the context of Ukrainian suffering and he was rounded on. Personally I feel in that instance it was just a clumsy example with no malice intended. I think sometimes people underestimate how difficult it can be to convey nuance in an argument when you're not communicating in your native language. He still comes out with some right old tripe though! As well as the occasional view from a far Eastern perspective which is useful and enlightening.
BTW, WTF is the fish and chips thing??
I’m quite happy with that, it’s really only like chucking a few quid in the pot to help a just cause. Oh and it’s “spite” not “spike”.
chewkw
Free MemberYou might be fine but a lot of people might not have the spare few quids to spend. I foresee Fish & Chips (my favourite) will cost £15 or even £20 in some places. All due to shortages couple with other increases etc. Not good.
BTW, WTF is the fish and chips thing??
Without wading back through the thread IIRC chewkw mentioned that the price of fish and chips would go up because of the war - clearly, to me, making a point about the impact UK food supplies, but people seem to have understood this as a personal whine because the mob likes to hate chewkw.
It was a silly thing to moan about
I must have missed it. It raises an interesting question though. How much are people here (as in the UK, not STW) willing to suffer to support the Ukrainians and send a message to Putin? Given that military action is not possible it seems to me that nothing less than total economic isolation is required. That's going to cause a lot more problems than expensive fish and chips. If the UK govt and the public really are supportive of Ukraine then it's time we put our money where our mouths are.
How is the alleged 'artifical' creation of a Ukranian identity any different to the creation of Russian identity out of most of central and northern Asia consisting of a huge variety of peoples?
Maybe future trade agreement can hold the clause on no trading with genocide regimes.
………and the cost of not doing everything we can is?
people seem to have understood this as a personal whine because the mob likes to hate chewkw.
He was arguing against sanctions on Russia. The price of fish and chips was presented as evidence that they would hurt us as much as Russia.
I must have missed it. It raises an interesting question though. How much are people here (as in the UK, not STW) willing to suffer to support the Ukrainians and send a message to Putin? Given that military action is not possible it seems to me that nothing less than total economic isolation is required. That’s going to cause a lot more problems than expensive fish and chips. If the UK govt and the public really are supportive of Ukraine then it’s time we put our money where our mouths are.
I agree, and personally we would be happy to tighten our belts and take a lot more economic pain if it would genuinely help Ukraine. The point has been made however that whilst the STW demographic might be able to weather this, there are plenty in the country already on their knees due to fuel cost, inflation, government incompetence etc. It's easy to take a moral stand when you aren't worrying about feeding your kids.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have tougher sanctions, just that we should consider that they will be a lot harder on some of us than others and we are (mostly) pretty privileged on here.
How is the alleged ‘artifical’ creation of a Ukranian identity any different to the creation of Russian identity out of most of central and northern Asia consisting of a huge variety of peoples?
True. All borders are disputed if you go back far enough. And in most of Europe, that isn't very far at all.
Putin’s mate, Orban re-elected I see.
On his election he said...“This victory is one to remember, maybe even for the rest of our lives, because we had the biggest [range of opponents to] overpower. The left at home, the international left, the bureaucrats in Brussels, the money of the Soros empire, the international media and even the Ukrainian president in the end,”
Just say "Jews" Victor, we're all bored already, and we all know who you're referring to here...
