Maybe we should sell Ukraine a few subs full with tomahawks….
Thay are finding some horrible things in the occupied areas the Russian army has left.
Just butchers.
I don't think for one minute they are leaving
They are ****ing animals. I hope more of them get cooked up in their shitty armour.
If I were Ukrainian, I think I would be driving every piece of artillery/mlrs I could find towards the Belorussian border and obliterating any Russian camp within range.
Thay are finding some horrible things in the occupied areas the Russian army has left.
Just butchers.
I don’t think for one minute they are leaving
Yes I saw some horrific footage on twitter of the towns the Russians have abandoned around Kyiv.
They know they are never going to appear in an internal court of law and Putin is going to pin a medal on their chest when they get home.
This is not the actions of a few undisciplined soldiers, it's a deliberate and planned genocide.
https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1510395754384351237
Twitter has some grim images as the Russians level the area north of Kyiv....
And in other news, shelling started in Odessa. https://www.bbc.com/news
I guess the Russians can stay offshore and just flatten everything again and continue turning the area into rubble. Now if the Ukranians could sink a warship, or the Russians bumped into their own mines...
I just hope Turkey keeps the shipping lane closed in the Bosphorous.
I’d find it really difficult not to be filled with hatred and a need for vengeance.
This is a worry to me. This invasion will - rightly - generate colossal hatred for "Russians" in Ukraine, and how do you stop that spilling over in 5 or 10 years time?
Well I said it at the start and I'm still thinking it.
If the West/Europe were to step in and fight Russia would fold quickly.
The aftermath is another topic, but I feel incredibly uncomfortable seeing what's happening to the people of Ukraine.
If the West/Europe were to step in and fight Russia would fold quickly.
It's very likely they would escalate and use tactical nuclear weapons.
The aftermath is another topic, but I feel incredibly uncomfortable seeing what’s happening to the people of Ukraine.
Yes. Based on Russia's history of brutalizing civilians, this was fairly predictable, and the Ukrainians knew it. Russia's behaviour has pretty much made a peace deal impossible, the only thing Ukraine will accept now is that all Russian forces withdraw back to Russia and Ukraine maintains a large, well equipped army to deter any further attacks.
NATO getting actively involved would be a huge mistake, but Russia is is on the back foot now so arming Ukraine to go on the offensive and drive the Russians out is the only way to put an end to the atrocities.
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1510529627176980482
mentions of nukes appear to have stopped. I'm worrying that he is going to nuke Kyiv.
Why do think Ukrainians are prepared to defend as desperately as they do? They know that every town they lose means a massacre or mass rape of civilians. It's the Russian playbook, used in Chechnya - level the cities, terrorise and kill the civilian population.
They are a superpower of genocidal scumbags. Nuclear weapons may be a deterrent against global conflicts, but they also enable smaller scale atrocities. (See also: Iraq).
Philips has it for me. Russia knows we are supplying weapons and hasn’t used nukes so that bluff has already been called. We are already involved, supplying weapons, intelligence and training. We now need to make sure the Russian attacks in the South and East fail, and are incredibly costly for the Russians.
Putting our own forces in is not the answer, but there is still a lot we can, and should do.
Also making sure the Russian people understand what is being done in their name is important, as is continuing to put pressure on neutral countries to further increase Russia’s isolation.
mentions of nukes appear to have stopped. I’m worrying that he is going to nuke Kyiv.
Kyiv is the historical capital of the Russ empire Putin harks back to - he can't damage the city too much without undermining the whole point of his "special operation".
Why do think Ukrainians are prepared to defend as desperately as they do? They know that every town they lose means a massacre or mass rape of civilians
You either fight to try and minimise the horrors, or surrender, and still endure the horrors. Truly awful choices to make
What do those voices on here, who advocated Ukraine just rolling over and accepting the Russian occupation for a peaceful life think now?
Mass graves of civilians, public executions, RU police units behind the frontline rounding up hit lists of Ukrainians, mobile crematoria. This was planned, and thousands of Russians are culpable. Early on I was of the mind 'it's just Putin' but that doesn't stack up any more. There is something deeply rotten and corrupt accross Russian society.
There are some horrific images on Twitter from the retaken towns around Kiev. Systematic mass slaughter. God knows what it is like in poor Mariupol.
How much worse would it have been if the whole country had been occupied with no western journalists to witness and report on this?
The Ukrainians knew this, and this is why they are fighting so desperately hard. I believe we need to do everything in our power to stop Russia and hold them to account for these horrific crimes. Reluctantly, I still think NATO boots on the ground is out, but aircraft, anti ship missiles to destroy the Black sea fleet, armour, artillery, air defence systems etc. Basically anything Ukraine wants that doesn't have a ridiculous training or maintenance burden. And turn the screw even more on sanctions, even if it creates pain for us in the short term. Kick them out of the UN. Whatever it takes.
I think Russia needs to be cast out of society. No person, business or entity allowed in any European country.
Nobody in Russia will see what is being done in their name with the control of media/internet.
What do those voices on here, who advocated Ukraine just rolling over and accepting the Russian occupation for a peaceful life think now?
I hope you're not talking about me. I didn't advocate it, I talked about it.
Would the Russians have done all those things if they hadn't been fighting?
I think Russia needs to be cast out of society. No person, business or entity allowed in any European country.
I agree, but fear that they will just turn into an impoverished, festering, resentful North Korean like state in Europe. But with far more nukes and an even more unhinged leader.
What do those voices on here, who advocated Ukraine just rolling over and accepting the Russian occupation for a peaceful life think now?
I thought that the forumite (and fervent Brexit supporter) who not only suggested that Ukraine should allow itself to become a Russian puppet state, but that also for an end to sanctions on Russia because the cost of their fish and chips might increase was one of the most morally and intellectually bankrupt takes I've read on this forum.
Would the Russians have done all those things if they hadn’t been fighting?
The Ukrainians who were massacred with their hands tied behind their backs weren't fighting, they had surrendered. There are still a lot of WW2 survivors in Eastern Europe who remember first-hand the Red Army inflicted on their supposed friends. Nobody with any knowledge of history would trust the Russian military to not abuse civilians or POWs. The reason the Ukrainians are fighting so hard is because they knew what awaited them if they surrendered.
I hope you’re not talking about me. I didn’t advocate it, I talked about it.
No. I genuinely can't remember the usernames of those who did, but there were a few in the nearly 7000 posts on this thread. If you didn't advocate it, then I'm clearly not talking about you. Those that did, know who they are.
Would the Russians have done all those things if they hadn’t been fighting?
There seems to be evidence that much of this was pre planned. The Russians believed they would win in a walkover in a few days. Some Russian POWs had ceremonial uniforms with them for the victory parade through Kyiv. Why then, if that was their expectation did they send mobile crematoria and Police units with lists of local officials and journalists etc?. This is the reality of their "de nazification". I think we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg here. There are going to be some monumental crimes uncovered.
As soon as possible truss will be in Moscow negotiating cheap hydrocarbons as a run up to the next election.
Would the Russians have done all those things if they hadn’t been fighting?
Yes. They have form.
As soon as possible truss will be in Moscow negotiating cheap hydrocarbons as a run up to the next election.
The caring tories selflessly turning the other cheek and starting the healing process.
God bless ‘em.
Well unlike North Korea there is a healthy middle class, I used to talk to them most days in my last job. They holiday like us, go out and buy TVs etc. One of my work colleagues was a keen cyclist. They'll all soon wake up and realise that their slowly shunting back to the Soviet Union.
So let’s stop them having all the trappings of European luxury. I’m sorry for the good ones, but they too are complicit.
They’ll all soon wake up and realise that their slowly shunting back to the Soviet Union.
But in a brutally repressive state, what will they be able to do about it?
Keep in mind that otherwise sensible Americans lost their minds over terrorism 20 years ago. Russians have a much more restricted media and political opposition has been destroyed so the propaganda about Nazis would be easy for people to believe.
https://twitter.com/YudinGreg/status/1510577043829895175
For 'Nazis', substitute 'Jews' and 'Communists' in 1930s Germany. The idea of 'purifying' a population is rather familiar too.
This is a war launched by a fascist dictator, who is attempting genocide in real time in a European democracy. At some point NATO may have to get involved more directly, depending on how well the Ukrainians are doing in Donbas and the south.
The images and testimony emerging right now are horrifying.
It’s such a shame that Russia has nukes, I can’t see any way out of this.
I'm fairly sure some people are busy trying to figure out how to take Putin out without causing nuclear Armageddon.
I’m sorry for the good ones, but they too are complicit.
How?
I genuinely can’t remember the usernames of those who did
I can, but I won't name them so they can come back and reframe all they said.
But I do recall how their "friends in Ukraine" wish it had never started (I think even Putin wishes that now), but their view that surrender to occupation would just mean going back to their nice lives, just with a different flag flying from the town hall was hopelessly naïve.
Ukrainians remember Stalin taking over and systematically starving 4 million of them to death; it wasn't that long ago that all memory has faded.
They are fighting for their lives. It shows why when you see how the Russian army are just animals
But I do recall how their “friends in Ukraine” wish it had never started (I think even Putin wishes that now), but their view that surrender to occupation would just mean going back to their nice lives, just with a different flag flying from the town hall was hopelessly naïve.
You forgot the praise for Putin for bringing peace to Syria. IIRC, it was justified by "pacifism" because ending the war quickly let the Syrian people get back to rebuilding after all the damage inflicted by NATO backed terrorists, or some such nonsense.
Interesting to see though that some are using the execution and torture of civilians as a debating tactic on an Internet forum
Pointing out that Ukrainians would have been idiots to surrender because they would have faced death squads isn't a debating tactic. However, what is a debating tactic is trying to claim that people are pointing out war crimes as a debating tactic, an utterly shameless one.
Let's not get dragged into playing the man again on this thread.
What if the man stands up shouting "play me!"?
Then it's a false flag and you're best off ignoring it.
Back on topic, I knew the Russians were the "bad guys" in this, but I never suspected they'd go full attempted genocide.
What if the man stands up shouting “play me!”?
NATO probably provoked him, you should surrender so that he doesn't lose face.
Revisiting the early pages of this thread reveals some absolutely sensational bad takes alongside some excellent parroting of Kremlin talking points.
My personal contribution was suggesting that the UK would not impose any meaningful economic sanctions. 🙂
Lots of us have been very wrong at various points on this thread.
