How is the alleged ‘artifical’ creation of a Ukranian identity any different to the creation of Russian identity out of most of central and northern Asia consisting of a huge variety of peoples?
They're not Russian. Russia is the highest form of culture on Earth. Those who oppose the highest form of culture on Earth are Nazis who conspire to destroy Russia. Killing Nazis is what any reasonable person would do. Something along those lines, maybe a bit of Slavic people as a Master-race who need living space to expand into.
I agree, and personally we would be happy to tighten our belts and take a lot more economic pain if it would genuinely help Ukraine. The point has been made however that whilst the STW demographic might be able to weather this, there are plenty in the country already on their knees due to fuel cost, inflation, government incompetence etc. It’s easy to take a moral stand when you aren’t worrying about feeding your kids.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t have tougher sanctions, just that we should consider that they will be a lot harder on some of us than others and we are (mostly) pretty privileged on here.
Yep, agree here.
He was arguing against sanctions on Russia. The price of fish and chips was presented as evidence that they would hurt us as much as Russia.
Your contributions to this thread have generally been some of the most useful and productive IMO. But I think you're unfairly misrepresenting him here.
Anyway, this is getting fairly well OT, sorry.
Given that military action is not possible
In't that what the Ukrainians are (pretty successfully) doing right now?
there are plenty in the country already on their knees due to fuel cost, inflation, government incompetence etc.
If the UK govt is serious about it's support for Ukraine and it's opposition to Russia then they have the ability to mitigate the worst impacts of cutting economic ties with Russia. Even with that support, at the very least it will mean driving less, rationing of gas, a potential 3 or 4 day week (and the reduction in incomes that will cause), skyrocketing inflation, and a recession the likes of which we've never seen outside the pandemic. Something tells me our support doesn't go that far though.
In’t that what the Ukrainians are (pretty successfully) doing right now?
You think the UK and by extension NATO can fight a war with Russia and it not escalate into the use of nuclear weapons?
Something along those lines, maybe a bit of Slavic people as a Master-race who need living space to expand into.
Ironically they already have way more of this than just about any country on Earth.
I'm musing about stuff we can do. I'm probably talking out of my arse, but why can't we close the Russian Embassy? Expel the ambassador, diplomats, SVR spies, cleaners the lot. They are only apologists for mass murder and rape, what useful function are they performing right now? They can open again when their troops leave Ukraine and those responsible for atrocities are in the Hague on trial.
Boot them out of the UN Security council too.
I know this would be unprecedented and go against international diplomacy rules blah, blah but this is a unique situation. Can you imagine the impact if every Western country closed the Russian embassies and consulates?
I’m probably talking out of my arse, but why can’t we close the Russian Embassy?
Because international diplomacy is the main thing that can prevent war. We may not like them, and may not want to do business with them, but it's in our mutual interests to avoid going to war with them. However much we don't like it, we need to be talking to them more, not less.
You think the UK and by extension NATO can fight a war with Russia and it not escalate into the use of nuclear weapons?
No, but also, why would we need to? As i said, the Ukrainians are currently doing that more than successfully. I think European dependency on Russian gas and the complete defeat of the Russian military actually makes the case for a quicker resolution. The worst thing the EU or US ca do now is to slow up the Ukrainian advance
Because international diplomacy is the main thing that can prevent war.
Only if the country you're talking to are honest brokers. The Russians - leading up to this war clearly weren't. Anyway, bit late for that assessment anyway.
If the UK govt is serious about it’s support for Ukraine and it’s opposition to Russia then they have the ability to mitigate the worst impacts of cutting economic ties with Russia. Even with that support, at the very least it will mean driving less, rationing of gas, a potential 3 or 4 day week (and the reduction in incomes that will cause), skyrocketing inflation, and a recession the likes of which we’ve never seen outside the pandemic. Something tells me our support doesn’t go that far though.
Again, yes I would support that to stop this (and future) Russian aggression. But I'm retired and comfortably off. You are right though, there simply isn't the appetite for that kind of pain to support Ukraine.
"The left at home, the international left, the bureaucrats in Brussels, the money of the Soros empire, the international media"
Chilling how close Orban's bogeymen line up with the rhetoric of the American right.
Every MAGA Trumpet mentions Soros and the media.
Anyway, bit late for that assessment anyway.
We're not at war with Russia. We need diplomacy to keep it that way.
The people I was talking about are the extended family of a close work colleague. Everything I’ve said about this war is based on the things I hear from them via my mate at work,
so what dazh says is based on what his colleague says his extentended family say are their views of the russian invasion of their country. Fair enough but I most people will heed more what I dunno, Lyse Doucet or rafts of in situ news folks convey in terms of reports and analysis.
I’m quite comfortable passing on their views here even if they don’t fit the STW good vs evil narrative.
I regret that civilian mass graves do fit a good versus evil narrative.
While I rarely agree with him, I don't think we can have a go at dazh for reporting the views of people he knows who have direct contacts with the Ukraine. It's a valid opinion.
It's an opinion that seems naive to me, given what is now coming out of the Ukraine, and I wonder if those opinions have changed in light of the atrocities being reported, and the kind of comments in that state broadcaster's article above seeming to justify genocide and ethnic cleansing as Russian state policy.
I regret that civilian mass graves do fit a good versus evil narrative.
Sigh. No one is or would say that dead civilians is anything more than evil. My point is that this situation is far more complex than a simple battle between good and evil. It's very easy for us as non-participants to make judgements about what should or shouldn't have happened, but to the people on the ground it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. When you've been forced out of your home and had to leave everything behind, you'll probably have a different view of things than some IT bods on an internet forum.
but to the people on the ground it doesn’t make a whole lot of difference
I think it does make a difference to the Ukrainian people knowing that: i) other countries around the world understand what Russia is doing and condemn it as evil; ii) other countries do whatever they can to help, such as imposing economic sanctions and sending aid or weapons. What I think they would find extremely demoralizing would be seeing people saying, "Yeah, it's really terrible but there's nothing we can do without making fish-and-chips prices rise so maybe you could just surrender and we can put this bother behind us."
It’s very easy for us as non-participants to make judgements about what should or shouldn’t have happened,
Indeed. Invasion and killing of civilians shouldn't have happened. Not everything has to be complicated. Putin is doing bad things to expand Russia and its influence. And as for people on the ground, if you were in Finland, Esonia, Latvia, Lithuania would you be phlegmatic and blaming a defensive alliance for this?
I think Daz has a fair point here, however much we dislike it we do need to keep some channels of communication open. I don’t agree that diplomacy is preventing a wider war though - I think the primary thing in that regard is Putins nukes unfortunately.
, however much we dislike it we do need to keep some channels of communication open.
I don't think that's in dispute. What are 'our' as in the west's actual objectives here? I'd say ranked:
1. Not to have a war with Russia. Looking less easy as time goes on but only upside of this would be not having to worry about climate change any more.
2. To minimise casualties, Ukranian, Russian, anyoneelsian, including direct casualties of war and indirect through Chernobyl radiation etc.
3. For Russian influence/belligerence to be contained so Europe can continue in roughly its current form.
4. For Ukraine to continue as an independent country, albeit probably with reconfigured borders.
Lots of talking required to achieve any of the above.
however much we dislike it we do need to keep some channels of communication open
NATO is trying to. Apparently, Russian military leaders refuse to take phone calls from U.S. counterparts. That's not a good thing.
I agree lots of talking required, but that will only come after Russia has been fought to a standstill. The precondition for any settlement with Russia is that they have be fought to a point where they can’t win militarily. It seems to me that is their primary aim. Any talks at the moment are just to allow them time to regroup.
Yep, do some more killing to stop the killing.
Yep, do some more killing to stop the killing.
Cities are being attacked by the Russian army. What would you propose to minimise casualties?
Cities are being attacked by the Russian army. What would you propose to minimise casualties
Make it so they can't.
Loitering drones... I think we'll see more.
Not sure what air defense changes we'll see though.
I don’t doubt that Ukraine isn’t perfect and could do some things better. That doesn’t justify invasion, genocide, war crimes and ethnic cleansing though.
We (our leaders ) need to call out every lie, every falsehood, every fake argument from Russia. It boils my piss when news sites report what Russia says, without pointing out it is completely false.
They need long range cruise missile capability, counter artillery radar and capability, plus more radar long range Air defence.
We (our leaders ) need to call out every lie, every falsehood, every fake argument from Russia.
While we send millions/billions to them for their oil and gas. Which do you think they will be most bothered about, some harsh criticism, or cold hard cash?
That too. We have to be willing to take the consequences to defend European Democracy
They need long range cruise missile capability, counter artillery radar and capability, plus more radar long range Air defence.
They do but that's not a quick fix. It would take years to achieve some of those capabilities.
They need more Javelins, NLAWs and drones for now. Every Bayraktar the Turk's have.
Send every bit of ex-Soviet armour and artillery that NATO has.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/bucha-massacre-ukraine-kyiv-russia
New article from The Spectator, adding some context to Russian form for murdering civilians to gain control.
When Sara, her three-year-old daughter, tried to grab her mother's hand they shoved her aside. Milana's son, who was 11 months old, just stared uncomprehendingly. ‘They were wearing masks and camouflage,’ Milana's mother told me. ‘They forced us all to the floor at gunpoint. Milana was too terrified to speak. She just looked at me and mouthed the words “mama”. It was the last time any of us saw her.’
This if true is new to me
Brutality is a seam that runs through the Russian army even in peacetime. In my time as a correspondent in Russia in the 2000s, I spoke to several army recruits who said some of their cohorts were beaten so badly they were left with long-term disabilities and failing organs. According to one western report, at a time when such things were still possible, 290 Russian soldiers died of beatings administered by their superiors in just one year during the 2000s. Hundreds more committed suicides.
It’s how the Russian state operates, from the top down, so no real surprise.
I just wish western governments, especially ours, actually cut off the money, instead of weak window dressing. The whole system of shell companies and money laundering in the U.K. is so deeply embedded.
Brutality is a seam that runs through the Russian army even in peacetime.
Yeah, I've read and seen similar pieces before about the brutality of Russia recruitment and basic training, not so much hazing but systematic brutal and numbing violence seems to be the way they train their solidary. The pictures I've seen of Ukrainian atrocities, are similar to what they did in Chechnya
I just wish western governments, especially ours, actually cut off the money, instead of weak window dressing.
Be careful what you wish for. I don't think anyone in this country is ready for the impacts of cutting off russian oil and gas. Putin's not an idiot, he knows the UK and Europe are not about to plunge their economies into the abyss to show solidarity with the Ukrainians.
Putin’s not an idiot,
He is an idiot. A cunning and cruel idiot, but definitely an idiot.
He is an idiot.
If you say so. 🙄
Idiots generally don't manage to manoevre themselves into a position of massive power like he has. We'd be much better off respecting that rather than underestimating him and calling him schoolyard names.
We’d be much better off respecting that rather than underestimating him and calling him schoolyard names.
Not underestimating I can sign up to. 'Respect'? I don't think so.
I don’t think anyone in this country is ready for the impacts of cutting off russian oil and gas.
I don't even think it's realistic tactic anyway.
Turn off the pipeline to EU from Russia. Cast about the world market to fill in the gaps, and buy it bulk from China and India. Where would they likely be getting it from? You'd still be paying Putin and it would only help domestic politics.
There's been many a war since WW2 and no-one has yet used nukes. It's not a given that they have to be deployed. Hopefully that will stay the case.
Sanctions are hurting, and will continue to hurt. I don't believe that Putin thought they would be as painful as they are. And it will only get worse.
Putin’s not an idiot, he knows the UK and Europe are not about to plunge their economies into the abyss to show solidarity with the Ukrainians.
Not so sure.
Putin's demand for gas payments in roubles evaporated after the Germans (and the French) refused to meet it last week.
At the time, the German government was preparing for gas rationing, considering 4 day weeks and briefing citizens on how to use less energy.
So, the will of the Western European economies is still strong, even in the face of Putin's trump card on gas. And even though he's now shown his hand, the rest of Europe is preparing strategies for living without Russian energy.
Outside of that, contingencies are also being made for other natural resources like nickel and aluminium that come from Russia in significant quantities.
Full economic meltdown is looking less and less likely for the West but sanctions could bite the Russian economy still harder.
Idiots generally don’t manage to manoevre themselves into a position of massive power like he has.
That only shows he wasnt an idiot in the past. Plenty of dictators got themselves into positions of power before making idiotic mistakes and getting themselves retired.
His recent plans have shown some rather gaping holes eg its pretty evident now that he really did think it would be a couple of days to take Kyiv and then have the country surrender to him.
There’s been many a war since WW2
Not quite like this...?
We’d be much better off respecting that
I genuinely see no reason to show Putin any respect TBH.
‘Respect’? I don’t think so.
Respect the fact that he's not an idiot != Respect him as a person.
Perhaps try reading a post before jumping to conclusions?
I genuinely see no reason to show Putin any respect TBH.
See above.
Honestly this whole thread is ridiculous. It's impossible to make even a simple point without being labelled as on one side or other, good or bad, or whatever.
Not quite like this…?
Korea and Vietnam have some parallels.
Perhaps try reading a post before jumping to conclusions?
Honestly this whole thread is ridiculous. It’s impossible to make even a simple point without being labelled as on one side or other, good or bad, or whatever.
Perhaps try following your own advice. Where did I label you as anything?
Daz - we don’t need to respect him to understand him. I’m fearful of him, without doubt, as he commands a nuclear arsenal.
I don’t respect someone who’s only method of dealing with the world is fear and threats.
This isn’t about showing solidarity, it’s about stopping genocide in Europe and trying to shape a world without constant war on our doorstep. How the fallout impacts our population is a political decision for our government. Thankfully we still have the ability to choose one of those, although this current bunch don’t really like being held to account.
