Tucker Carlson, Trump, Tom Cotton, looks like these right wingers all backed the wrong despot.
i_scoff_cake
Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.
If the Olympics ever incorporate mental gymnastics I suspect you'll get a call.
Back on topic, those blank sign protesters in Russia. Incredible, brave and very clever at saying everything with nothing. Remarkable courage.
Ukrainian Railways (Укрзалізниця - Ukrzaliznytsia) posted this picture on their FB page showing the current state of their network and functioning stations:
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Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.
Ukraine is not a NATO member, and until this had no realistic prospect of membership any time soon. And, as has been said over and over again, it's a defensive pact that countries apply to join of their own free will. If NATO expansionism exists at all, it's entirety driven by Putin because neighbouring countries are terrified of his colonial aggression. As witnessed by countries like Sweden and Finland who until recently had no membership ambitions, looking like changing their minds.
The article certainly makes a good point that the right choice could secure and cement China’s international position in the short-medium term.
I can't be bothered looking now but I said as much about 50 pages ago 🙂
Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.
Those bloody NATO countries and their bloody invasions, eh? The people who’ve died as they aggressively annexed all those former soviet states
Oh… hang on a minute…
^ if you want to know why we have to revisit that particular turd in the punchbowl.....
NATO is (the warmongering, expansionists) run by America (world leaders in all things capitalism), for the benefit of Isreal, or more accurately Mossad, who "we all know are actively engaged in both international peadophile rings and the MSM who only exist to ensure the true identity of our lizard overlords is not revealed.
apols, i seem to have run out of inverted commas and parentheses
Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.
Hail Tommy, comrade cake…….or some other indoctrinated bullshit
Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.
No, really, there isn't.
Nope, none whatsoever,''Biden’s CIA director, William J. Burns, has been warning about the provocative effect of NATO expansion on Russia since 1995. That’s when Burns, then a political officer in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, reported to Washington that “hostility to early NATO expansion is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here.''
Which is why Putin has been writing essays on why Russia & Ukraine are really one nation. And saying in public that Ukraine isn’t really a nation. But really we are going round in circles here. People will believe what they want to believe, select the evidence that supports their existing viewpoint & are prepared to ignore the bleedin’ obvious if it doesn’t support their particular world view
Burns, then a political officer in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, reported to Washington that “hostility to early NATO expansion is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here.”
The only reason Russia is hostile to NATO "expansionism" is that it frustrates their colonial aspirations. Eastern European countries have a stark choice. Voluntary membership of NATO or involuntary membership of USSR/Warsaw pact Mk2.
it’s a defensive pact that countries apply to join of their own free will
Nato doesn't have to let them join. Furthermore, NATO has been used at least twice to bomb countries that didn't first attack NATO, so it's not completely defensive.
The only reason Russia is hostile to NATO “expansionism” is that it frustrates their colonial aspirations.
The Americans have their Monroe doctrine. Do you think we'd be happy with an independent Scotland signing a 'defence pact' with China and letting China build military bases in Scotland, may even put nukes there?
i_scoff_cake
Nato doesn’t have to let them join.
Russia doesn't have to invade Ukraine but it has.
Interestingly Ukraine isn't in nato....And around and around it goes...
The Americans have their Monroe doctrine. Do you think we’d be happy with an independent Scotland designing ‘defence pact’ with China and letting China build military bases in Scotland, may even put nukes there?
Now if you delete China and insert any other democratic country/countries (a more realistic analogy I think you'll agree), then personally I wouldn't feel threatened by it nor have any objection.
Do you think we’d be happy with an independent Scotland designing ‘defence pact’ with China
An interesting assumption about who ‘we’ are given that a lot of people on here are Scottish or live in Scotland?
But what you are saying is that if Scotland became independent, England would have every right to invade if the Scots came up with policies that the English weren’t keen on?
Interestingly Ukraine isn’t in nato….And around and around it goes
Nato has made a kind of soft promise to let them join...at some point. It's this possibility that is the Russians' problem.
i_scoff_cake
Nato has made a kind of soft promise to let them join…at some point. It’s this possibility that is the Russians’ problem.
So Russia invade a county and decimate it's cities over a "soft promise"? Ok.
How about Georgia and Chechnya?
Like I said though, this just goes round and round.
Do you think we’d be happy with an independent Scotland designing ‘defence pact’ with China
A good analogy. Of course it will be ridiculed by those who see geo-politics as a good vs evil battle, where the lives of normal people are secondary to the political and financial interests of the rich and powerful.
I guess the millions in Ukraine who have seen their lives destroyed will feel some comfort in the fact that Putin and his cronies are now persona non grata in the west when previously they were everyone’s best mates. 🙄
Nato has made a kind of soft promise to let them join
This is nonsense
Nato has made a kind of soft promise to let them join…at some point. It’s this possibility that is the Russians’ problem.
But why? Does anyone in Russia (or the world) seriously believe NATO would launch an invasion on their territory from Ukraine if they were in NATO? Or is it simply because it would have thwarted their desire to seize Ukraine by force. If it is the latter, then it's not a reasonable objection IMO.
Nato has made a kind of soft promise to let them join
But since Russia couldn't make a reasonable counter offer they need to invade.
Lots of countries bordering Russia have already joined NATO and not caused Russia any problem.
The whole "NATO expansion threat" theory simply doesn't stand up to any logical scrutiny.
It’s more that there are those in Russia who fear & despise liberal democracy. The more countries that embrace it & the closer they are, the more they are scared it will infect Mother Russia.
dazh
I guess the millions in Ukraine who have seen their lives destroyed will feel some comfort in the fact that Putin and his cronies are now persona non grata in the west when previously they were everyone’s best mates.
@dazh
Remind us again how it's Ukraine's governments fault that they are dying and not Putin's?
The whole “NATO expansion threat” theory simply doesn’t stand up to any logical scrutiny.
Agreed, it simply constrains Russian ambitions, borne out of a festering and misplaced sense of grievance to reclaim their old vassal states by force. That is the sum total of their objections to it.
Remind us again how it’s Ukraine’s governments fault that they are dying and not Putin’s?
That’s not what I said and the implication is offensive. You can either retract it or I can report it and let the mods decide.
On a point of order though there’s a huge difference between the Ukrainian govt and the people who are being slaughtered in their name.
Of course it will be ridiculed by those who see geo-politics as a good vs evil battle,
The baddies are the ones who invaded a country at the behest of a fascist dictator, and are killing civilians. The goodies are the ones trying to defend themselves. Hope this helps.
On NATO expansion, right now if you lived in a Baltic republic would you be agitating to leave NATO as not doing so is somehow worrying Putin?
Putin asking for help
https://twitter.com/FT/status/1503094784763781122?t=G6cC41pg0rpphQ_wZZFdFA&s=19
China are tacitly backing Russia so far, but they must be aware that he has ballsed this up massively
Russia are ready to default
Unprecedented sanctions
Hes united the the West, with countries like Germany and France talking about stepping up military spending
Biden looking more like a leader than ever
Fast track membership for both EU & NATO now being requested or considered by Russia's neighbours
Putins plan for a 3 day blitzkrieg to decapitate the Ukrainian leadership has instead seen his army in tatters, suffering more casualties in 2 weeks than Amrrica & the UK suffered in 20 years in Afghanistan...
dazh
That’s not what I said and the implication is offensive. You can either retract it or I can report it and let the mods decide.
Ok, as you are bringing up implications and what you said or didn't say what do these things you said imply:
dazh
They definitely don’t want to sacrifice their lives to defend the Ukrainian government.
dazh
How do those going on about ‘living as free Ukrainians’ square that with blanket conscription?
And incredibly, after saying how offended you are and I'm talking nonsense about you blaming the Ukrainian government you post this.
dazh
On a point of order though there’s a huge difference between the Ukrainian govt and the people who are being slaughtered in their name.
You directly imply in all those quotes and say on the last one that this current devastation of lives is due to the Ukrainian government. Not once mentioning the invading Russian army or the hand guiding it.
Utterly incredible alternate reality. I'm sorry the truth offends you.
Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.
I hope you are getting some of the grift that Farage and co get for this tripe. I'd hate to think you were doing it for free
It’s this possibility that is the Russians’ problem.
NATO isn't Russia's problem, it's Putin's problem, and it's certainly not the fault of the people of Ukraine that Putin sees himself the victim. He's chosen to invade Ukraine, assigning imaginary danger to group that pose him and Russia zero danger. His self -ascribed victim-hood is what allows him to empower his forces to commit war crimes. Assigning imaginary power to defenceless people outmatched in every way exposes his desperate need to feel wronged by the West.
Putin feels he is the victim of History, not the people he's now attacking. It's what allows him simultaneously to pretend to be a victim of NATO expansion while at the same time bombing the shit out defenceless people in a country that pose no risk to him or his mafia cronies.
People like Putin won't stop, they can only be stopped,.
The baddies are the ones who invaded a country at the behest of a fascist dictator, and are killing civilians. The goodies are the ones trying to defend themselves.
You think the terms ‘baddies’ and ‘goodies’ are helpful in this situation? You’re boiling an extremely complex situation down to schoolyard politics.
To be clear though, the baddies are the state actors on all sides who have used the Ukrainian people as pawns in their geo-political and financial interests. The goodies are those who are now dying and suffering through no fault of their own. War benefits no one other than those sending the orders and supplying the weapons.
dazh
You think the terms ‘baddies’ and ‘goodies’ are helpful in this situation? You’re boiling an extremely complex situation down to schoolyard politics.
Deflection. I think most of the world would characterise Putin and his actions as being the polar opposite of being the "good guys" and holding the moral high ground.
To be clear though, the baddies are the state actors on all sides
Again, totally ignoring the fact that Putin's military has invaded another country. Incredible stuff. Really.
You are an outlier on a monumental scale.
Complex situation but if you can't tell good from bad, you're in a different reality.
To be clear though, the baddies are the state actors on all sides who have used the Ukrainian people as pawns in their geo-political and financial interests. The goodies are those who are now dying and suffering through no fault of their own.
Well, you are certainly ideologically consistent. But you aren’t going to convince anyone who doesn’t believe in your ideology.
@dazh You seem to be wanting to paint the Ukrainian government as baddies without actually saying that. Or do I misunderstand you?
You directly imply in all those quotes that this current devastation of lives is due to the Ukrainian government.
No I’m saying it’s the result of all governments who have involved themselves in Ukrainian politics. Do you agree with blanket conscription? If Ukrainians are free should they not be able to decide whether to fight or not?
Just thinking aloud here...
I just can't get my head around someone with very left of centre leanings, which I share, ending up siding with a brutal authoritarian dictator like Putin.
I just can't get my head around it? I've tried but I can't square it.
Or do I misunderstand you?
Yes.
ending up siding with a brutal authoritarian dictator like Putin.
No you’ve just imagined this. I’ve never defended putin and never will. I despise him FWIW, but that doesn’t automatically mean I think those opposed to him are blameless either.
No I’m saying it’s the result of all governments who have involved themselves in Ukrainian politics. Do you agree with blanket conscription? If Ukrainians are free should they not be able to decide whether to fight or not?
I think its clear what you've been saying through this whole thread I'm afraid.
War is *, conscription is * but Ukraine has been forced into a situation of Putin's making and however much you want to blame Ukraine and its government it just doesn't stand up to what we are all witnessing on TV and online.
Keep defending the indefensible though as you have all through this thread.
No I’m saying it’s the result of all governments who have involved themselves in Ukrainian politics
So does that excuse Russia invading Ukraine?
It seems to me that dazh is feeling a little uncomfortable with the lionising of Ukraine and the apparent tendency of people to create a simplistic goodies vs baddies Hollywood Cold War type story.
I can appreciate that viewpoint but it's rather hard to discuss it without being jumped on at this point because emotions are justifiably high (including mine) and that precludes nuance generally.
So perhaps now isn't the time? It might come across as insensitive and a bit 'yeah but...'
Keep defending the indefensible though as you have all through this thread.
He really isn't doing that. You're extrapolating incorrectly.
Someone who calls for a revolution of the people, but not for a resistance of the people.
If this was the USA and/or the UK invading a sovereign country, Dazh would be with the rest of us calling out the politicians who had called the invasion, rather than this two sides stuff. Yes, there are many countries who have been involved with Ukraine, only one is at this moment attacking it and killing its people. Russia has no reason to be flattening the cities of Ukraine right now. It was no threat to them. No NATO country was going to attack Russia on the behalf of the Ukraine. Hell, no NATO country is prepared to defend Ukraine as it falls piece by piece to Russian military aggression.
